Review/Critique/Roast of HRB/RLM

[Jooky]

Just to be clear, I didn't bother to look for scammers because there are scammers everywhere.

The main complaint against HRB has been about scams... and you 'didn't bother to look for them'? Yet you concluded that there was no scamming. Very sharp.

At one given time: 28 women on web cam chat. 10 of them targeting a single man with light sex chat. How many are targetting other men with the same? Clearly more than the third targeting one man. It'd be easy to find out. If your 'core product' is false chat targetting dummies, where's the value for a serious marriage minded man?

Tom, you 'investigated' a product without even trying out the product. Great 'critical thinking'.  

Are you next going to tell us Pepsi is better than Coke without tasting either?

Come on, Tom. You must realize how completely silly your 'investigation' looks to anyone who is not in on the take or 'dumber than dirt'.

[Gator]

Simply because you don't like the business model doesn't make a site a "scam" site. It simply makes it not a site for you.

I agree with you.  In the past it is apparent that a number of men were taken for a ride.  The men were encouraged to spend more than reasonable.   Perhaps men communicated with fake photos, perhaps they communicated only with an interpreter writing fiction, perhaps they were given a "bait and switch" when they did make the trip, etc. 

How many men?  CEO says he uses a "three strikes and you're out" rule.  He has banned 700 agencies. That sounds like  2,100 legitimate complaints.  I consider that large.

CEO states that these past problems are now resolved.  If so,  it is unfair to call HRB a scam site.

[Gator]

Manny, I don't know your mission statement at RUA.  However, I find some of your statements running counter to a mission of helping marriage minded men.

That says HRB are giving most paying clients what they want ... Numbers don't lie.

These "paying clients" simply don't know of a better option. 

Many men will agonize over  spending a few dollars. I would be surprised if HRB even wanted those guys as clients.

Agree.  HRB wants the easily duped who are willing to spend money. 

Sensible men can see past all that stuff and go and find the marriage minded women there.

So what!  I assert that it is easier with sites such as EM, Russian Euro, Lucky Lovers, etc.  Why "easier?"  At EM, et al a man is not constantly bombarded by professional daters, paid chat girls, etc.
 

As I said up thread, if you don't like the business model, use another service provider. There are several models to choose from.

Manny, in my opinion HRB is a RW introduction site where a serious man could spend upwards of a few thousand  dollars and get the same result as spending $99 at EM.  Do you agree?  If so, I don't understand how you and your RUA can lend support to HRB if your mission is about helping marriage minded men.

And please don’t tell me that the HRB video cam is an advantage and that the HRB RW are vetted.  The HRB touted video chat can be done for free with EM women via Skype, Yahoo, etc. and a man can be certain the EM woman is not paid to chat and is not communicating with multiple men at the same time.   

[Admin]

Paying more should come with extra value.

What's the extra value with HRB? They claim it's a better monitoring and policing to enough a dating environment safe from scammers.

The evidence reveals the opposite. Their system encourages feeder agencies to mislead men in order to profit from them. You can call that a scam or not, up to you. Apparently some of you think it's ok to take advantage of someone if in your opinion they are 'knuckle shufflers' or 'losers'. For me misleading someone is misleading them, regardless of who they are.

The real extra value is false attention from young girls for men some of you label as 'not the cream of the crop'.

For serious men, this is not extra value. It's an additional hurdle.

So why pay more to add the additional hurdles of 'separating the wheat from the chaff' and not being able to directly communicate?

These hurdles hardly exist at other sites such as bride.ru, luckylovers, Elena's, Russian dating sites, freepersonals and many other small agencies and sites discussed here. For the serious man, why pay more for less value. It's moronic.

I remember the days when guys like Manny and TomT would insist that direct communication was key. After Manny became part of the business and TomT interacted with HRB, they've been 'enlightened'.

Now if RWD is a site for so called 'sex tourists' and guys that want to have fake soft core sex chat, by all means let's recommend them HRB and AWeb. I have nothing against that type of entertainment. I have nothing against strip clubs. I have nothing against prostitution either and I'm glad that it's legal in my State. If the CEO would admit that his site is primarily a charade for entertainment, like a strip club, I have nothing against his business model.

But to claim that the purpose of the web cam girls is so that men can validate that they're talking to real (implied sincere, not just physically real) women is pure bull. Do any of you honestly believe that?

If the RWD is a site for serious men, I don't see how anyone here can recommend sites that restrict direct communication.  

Sure, you can find a wife anywhere. There are guys here that have met their girlfriends or wives on actual porn sites. I had a smoking hot tall blonde model type, highly educated, 17 years younger than me fly to California on her own dime to meet me after a 10 minute phone conversation. I could have married her in a heartbeat. When I flew out to meet my girlfriend in person she had never even seen my photo. I don't relate or recommend what happened to me because it's an extreme long shot. So, sure, 'anything is possible', but it's not helpful to recommend that men to go directly for that long shot. This search is is hard enough as it is.

When guys are here prodding men by calling them cheap if they don't use long shot methods that add additional hurdles, don't allow direct communication and cater directly to the guys seeking cheap sexual fantasies, we all know why. It's all about the pounds. Ka-ching!

Jooky,

I see two distinct paths emerging from your argument. One if the issue of "direct communication" and the other is the issue of what I will call "chat girls". Beginning with the first:

>>I remember the days when guys like Manny and TomT would insist that direct communication was key.<<

And if you look to the RWD "10 Commandments" (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2) towards the top of our site AND in the left frame, you will see # 3 states:

Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.

As you probably know, IMBRA has created a complexity in achieving this by mandating the IMB/agency be interjected into the communications for some time (reference IMBRA Flowcharts here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/docs/IMBRA%20Flowchart_files/IMBRA%20Flowchart_frames.htm).

It is no longer as simple as saying; "Get the agency out of the picture ASAP" like it used to be - AND - I should point out that Tahirih was surprised when I told them that IMBRA had created a "license to steal" for some of the agencies (I was thinking of A-web at the time). They (TJC) fell victim to 'the law of unintended consequences' and were genuinely surprised, and unhappy, at this revelation - though not prepared to suggest changes to IMBRA to correct it.

Further, it is either naive (and I know you are not) or disingenuous to form the foundation of your argument on the point of "direction communication." For years the mantra of RWD, and RWG before us, and RUA when you and Don founded it, and dozens of other pundits - to promote the importance of direct communication. Nothing has changed DIRECTIONALLY. What *has* changed - and it is undeniable - is that legislation driven by feminist (or protectionist - depending on your POV) now impedes, at least, the direct communication that was available in years past.

And yes, I recognize you are quite adept at working around those impediments - and others here at RWD are quite helpful in navigating guys around those impediments - but to suggest the impediments do not exist or that IMBs/agencies should not follow the legislation is VERY poor counsel, indeed.

>>Now if RWD is a site for so called 'sex tourists' and guys that want to have fake soft core sex chat...<<

Upthread I already addressed this 'question'. Why are you now repeating it when the answer was already provided? Are you making an accusation, or do I need to repeat the answer, or what?

>>If the RWD is a site for serious men, I don't see how anyone here can recommend sites that restrict direct communication.<<

Where did you see a recommendation? There *has* been a repeated call for our members to be more definitive about what constitutes a "SCAM". BTW - did you read those two earlier topics I linked upthread? You participated in at least one of those earlier topics - and, as usual, made excellent points. It would be worthwhile, if you have not, to review those two topics - one of them is pretty current and they both address this very same issue.

If you go to this topic -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12304.0 - and then navigate to about half-way down page 4 and read through to mid-way through page 7, and you will find a LOT of discussion/debate on these very points. Also, pages 4 and 5 of this topic -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7756.0 should provide additional useful background and perspective.

>>Their system encourages feeder agencies to mislead men in order to profit from them.<<

I assume you mean the HRB "system." How do you KNOW this?

- Dan

[Jooky]

These women discussed above vacuum up the 95% and syphon off those who have money to burn to discuss licking chocolate off their popka.

Is this intentional?

Does HRB intentionally use these women to syphon off the non serious clients to protect the marriage minded women from them?

That's what you're saying. That's NOT what CEO has said.

That says HRB are giving most paying clients what they want. That isn't just a theory; correlate it with the low charge-backs they get. Numbers don't lie.

People do lie. People do lie about numbers. You are in the business. Tom and Andrew were wined and dined to 'investigate' HRB and didn't bother to review the actual product. CEO is understandably protecting his own business. None of you are impartial or credible sources.

The low chargebacks are due to their policy. There are no chargebacks allowed and it's very clear in their terms of service. There is also no reason to believe that the CEO has access to compare chargeback information with his competitors, especially sites run overseas.

[Jooky]

It is no longer as simple as saying; "Get the agency out of the picture ASAP" like it used to be

Yes it is. It's easier than ever. The goal is to meet real, sincere women and find a wife, right? This can be done easier these days without an agency. Agencies are not required at all.

Those in the business don't like it. They think tougher restrictive legislation is going to help them control and profit from their male clients. And you blame the feminists for all of this. Ha ha. Good one. Talk about naive.

but to suggest the impediments do not exist or that IMBs/agencies should not follow the legislation is VERY poor counsel, indeed.

I haven't suggested either. These exist for International Marriage Brokers. They do not apply to other methods of meeting women including what I most recommend, just go there.

Elena's models complies with IMBRA in a straight forward manner without monitoring and restricting direct communications. Why can't other agencies follow suit?

Russian dating sites, dating sites that provide equal services at equal cost for men and women and social networks do not fall into the category of an International Marriage Broker. Now, you may have insider info about legislation that might change this, but it hasn't changed yet. I have insider info from the people that actually process K visas.

Their system encourages feeder agencies to mislead men in order to profit from them.
I assume you mean the HRB "system." How do you KNOW this?

Simple logic. If a small local ageny profits by misleading men with their web cam girls, there is motivation for them to do it. Read Sabina's post above.

What do you think is the motivation for all the web cam / chat 'girls' that barrage a man with sex talk as soon as you log into HRB?

Do you think they are misleading men or not?

Do you think they are motivated by profit or not?

If they are not motivated by profit either for themselves or their local agency, what is the motivation?

I don't buy the 'these women are bored' bull*snip*.

[Admin]

Yes it is. It's easier than ever. The goal is to meet real, sincere women and find a wife, right? This can be done easier these days without an agency. Agencies are not required at all.

Those in the business don't like. They think tougher restrictive legislation is going to help them control and profit from their male clients. And you blame the feminists for all of this. Ha ha. Good one. Talk about naive.

I haven't suggested either. These exist for International Marriage Brokers. They do not apply to other methods of meeting women including what I most recommend, just go there.

Elena's models complies with IMBRA in a straight forward manner without monitoring and restricting direct communications. Why can't other agencies follow suit?

Russian dating sites, dating sites that provide equal services at equal cost for men and women and social networks do not fall into the category of an International Marriage Broker. Now, you may have insider info about legislation that might change this, but it hasn't changed yet. I have insider info from the people that actually process K visas.

Simple logic. If a small local ageny profits by misleading men with their web cam girls, there is motivation for them to do it. Read Sabina's post above.

What do you think is the motivation for all the web cam / chat 'girls' that barrage a man with sex talk as soon as you log into HRB?

Do you think they are misleading men or not?

Do you think they are motivated by profit or not?

If they are not motivated by profit either for themselves or their local agency, what is the motivation?

I don't buy the 'these women are bored' bull*snip*.

>>Yes it is. It's easier than ever. The goal is to meet real, sincere women and find a wife, right? This can be done easier these days without an agency. Agencies are not required at all.

Those in the business don't like. They think tougher restrictive legislation is going to help them control and profit from their male clients. And you blame the feminists for all of this. Ha ha. Good one. Talk about naive.<<

OK - I missed your point earlier then. You are essentially lobbying for guys to move away from the IMBs altogether - in favor of the Russian social networking sites. Do I have that correct now?

>>I haven't suggested either. These exist for International Marriage Brokers. They do not apply to other methods of meeting women including what I most recommend, just go there.<<

In this context, when you write; "just go there" do you mean just travel there? If so, there are many of us here at RWD who would concur - and we did just that.

>>Elena's models complies with IMBRA in a straight forward manner without monitoring and restricting direct communications. Why can't other agencies follow suit?<<

I suppose because John Adams is not Elena Petrova - nor is Mike Krosky. They all have their own 'approach' to this - and some are, as we have seen, more prone to criticism and suspicion than others.

>>Simple logic. If a small local ageny profits by misleading men with their web cam girls, there is motivation for them to do it. Read Sabina's post above.<<

Motive alone is insufficient to assign guilt. It *may* be (and often is) sufficient to assign suspicion. Some of the problem is that suspicions build in the absence of countermanding evidence - and yet, to be truly guilty evidence of having committed the offense should be shown. When people begin to declare guilt solely on the basis of suspicion - as happens all too often - they are acting irrationally.

>>What do you think is the motivation for all the web cam / chat 'girls' that barrage a man with sex talk as soon as you log into HRB?

Do you think they are misleading men or not?

Do you think they are motivated by profit or not?

If they are not motivated by profit either for themselves or their local agency, what is the motivation?

I don't buy the 'these women are bored' bull*snip*.<<

I am going to AGAIN refer you to those earlier topics. I could repeat them here, but why? The answers to those question were already asked, answered, and to the extent possible - resolved.

- Dan

[Jooky]

OK - I missed your point earlier then. You are essentially lobbying for guys to move away from the IMBs altogether - in favor of the Russian social networking sites. Do I have that correct now?

Although I agree with the 'you can meet someone anywhere' comments, in essence, yes.

I think it's better to meet women on a more equal playing field like a dating or networking site, or in real life where if they're not interested there is no incentive from the system for them to pretend to be.

In this context, when you write; "just go there" do you mean just travel there?

Yes.

As I explained in my PM 'nuff said.

[Voyager36]

 

Manny, in my opinion HRB is a RW introduction site where a serious man could spend upwards of a few thousand  dollars and get the same result as spending $99 at EM.  Do you agree?  If so, I don't understand how you and your RUA can lend support to HRB if your mission is about helping marriage minded men.

And please don’t tell me that the HRB video cam is an advantage and that the HRB RW are vetted.  The HRB touted video chat can be done for free with EM women via Skype, Yahoo, etc. and a man can be certain the EM woman is not paid to chat and is not communicating with multiple men at the same time.  

Gator, the purpose is not to "lend support" to HRB, but to lay out the facts for people to make their own judgements.

The RUA thread was originally some posters complaining/questioning HRB's business model.
There have been a good number of posts there from many different angles, and HRB has answered some of the criticisms.

You neglected to mention there were also 49 pages on RUA asking for scam victims and apparently none came forward sans Sculpto so, there must not be any scams at HRB. Thats opinion and experience from credible people.

As FP has pointed out, there doesn't seem to be much direct evidence (other than sculpto) of deliberate fraud or scam by HRB.
From my own point of view, I would suggest that anyone wondering about HRB should read both threads and make up their own mind.

Does HRB deserve the "Scam" label that some have given it? (as per Dan's definition of scam)
Probably not.

Now would I personally spend $1,000 or $2,000 on video chat with some girl that I'd never met?
Pretty darn unlikely....  

Read the thread(s). Judge for yourself.
Caveat emptor

[BillyB]

 I, facetrock am now a proud member of HRB with 50 hot credits in my pocket to blow like a drunken sailor on a Saturday night.

As soon as I finished my profile I was swamped with chat requests.

Wonder why that is? Anyone here have a clue why that might be?? Anyone? Anyone?

Don't spend too much money to prove a point. Hope the sensible people will listen to reason. If a guy's not smart enough to listen to reason, he can pay money himself at HRB/RLM and use the datings sites I mentioned earlier to learn how women act at HRB/RLM compared to women in real life. Any experienced forum member who read enough over the years and recommends those sites(HRB/RLM) to newbies is a FOOL.

If men want sex and porn, they can find prostitutes and porn sites easier than signing up for HRB/RLM. Why do guys sign up for Hot Russian BRIDES or Russian LOVE Match? What are HRB/RLM advertising when you look at their site? Sex and a Porn fantasy.. or LOVE and a BRIDE?

Sensible men can see past all that stuff and go and find the marriage minded women there.

What'ss the unsensible "stuff" to you?  Men who sign up at a site to look for love or a bride shouldn't have to filter out the agency tricks. How many people knowingly would hire a company to deliver them a service and get robbed? Intelligent men fresh off a divorce have a hard time learning how to catch a woman again let alone distinguish the sincere from the insincere women. The agency games of some of those big agencies is just another thing that hurts their chance for success and to top it off, they're paying for that crap.

[I/O]

What's a "Russian Bride"?

[TomT]

The main complaint against HRB has been about scams... and you 'didn't bother to look for them'? Yet you concluded that there was no scamming. Very sharp.

Your disingenuous cherry picking has been noted. You read my thread elsewhere and should have known that I wasn't looking for individual scammers; I was checking for consistency in CEO's story and verifying that he kept his promises to me and to his clients. (There was and he did, respectively.)

I can't help but notice that you skirt any issue that works against your argument, such as the corruption in the FSU. You don't say much about clients taking personal responsibility for their actions, either. Nor do you address the issues that prevail amongst many "bride" seekers. Instead of dealing with important core issues, you go for tabloid sensationalism and blame CEO for not doing more to protect clients against themselves. It's a pity that you didn't expend as much energy searching for good women on the database in question.

[BillyB]

Motive alone is insufficient to assign guilt. It *may* be (and often is) sufficient to assign suspicion. Some of the problem is that suspicions build in the absence of countermanding evidence - and yet, to be truly guilty evidence of having committed the offense should be shown. When people begin to declare guilt solely on the basis of suspicion - as happens all too often - they are acting irrationally.

I wouldn't say those people are acting irrationally. If lots of people on the internet say there are crazy people in a forest that hurt those who enter, you may say those that make the accusations without hard proof on the internet are acting irrationally but the truth is you will tell your family not to go in there based off those "irrational" people's claims. Deep down if enough people say it and if you can verify the people in the forest aren't normal, you may believe they can hurt you and your family even without proof.

With HRB/RLM people can do what facetrock did for proof to verify the ladies over there aren't normal compared to ladies at free sites or other paid sites where a guy can send endless messages to ladies without a fee per message. The ladies at free sites certainly have no motivation to sit there forever and chat with men.

I have never paid money for chat girls who talk sex take off their clothes. I have never seen those women receive a paycheck but it's safe to assume they get paid. Am I irrational for thinking that way without hard proof?

HRB/RLM girls don't take off their clothes but they act the same way as those porn girls in that they give endless amounts of attention to men regardless on how the men look. Sincere women, not controlled by agency strings, looking for a relationship will be much more selective and use her time wisely when writing men. Their behavior will be much different. I guarantee a handsome man will receive less attention from ugly women on the free dating site Mamba.ru than an ugly man will receive attention from model quality women at HRB/RLM. In the real world most women will reject most men's advances. Most women will not write a man first. It's opposite at the HRB/RLM world. I'm not going to prove scam but can anybody prove that HRB?RLM ladies are no different than the ladies at agencies and free sites that have good reputations? People get paid cash in the FSU. It'll be hard to find a pay stub from a video chat girl but anybody can do the test facetrock did for verification that something isn't normal there.

[Shadow]

With HRB/RLM people can do what facetrock did for proof to verify the ladies over there aren't normal compared to ladies at free sites or other paid sites where a guy can send endless messages to ladies without a fee per message. The ladies at free sites certainly have no motivation to sit there forever and chat with men.

Perhaps the free sites have changed from my days, but as I already noted I di get unsollicited contacts that were dubious to say the least.
CE has made it clear that the contracts forbid women to get paid, this would mean that the motivation for the women would not be different at all. And just in case the men here never noticed, there are women who like sex talk as much as men, and some of them will be up at 2:30 in the morning.
The call out for scam has about as much foundation as when an Arab dressed in traditional clothes with a backpack is attacked for being a terrorist. Its about appearance without any investigation.

[Chelseaboy]

Errr Shadow,
               In case you missed my post earlier on,MANY women on HRB are online chatting from midnight to past 7am in the morning,3 or 4 nights a week.Is that normal behaviour for  women,that also claim to have jobs,or be students.When do they sleep ?
It seems like they're working night shifts on the chat to me,either from local agencies,or they're homes,catering to the American market.Around 80% are not on webcam,so i strongly suspect they are agency workers posing as the women in the photo's.Why is that NOT a scam ? Can anyone tell me,why it's ok for money to be taken from men under false pretences,when agency workers chat to men,pretending to be the hottie in the profile photo's ?

[BillyB]

Perhaps the free sites have changed from my days, but as I already noted I di get unsollicited contacts that were dubious to say the least.

Let's have some proof!!!! I don't need proof to know it's happening. There's a big difference between individual scammers writing men or using profiles for scam compared to the actual site working against you.

And just in case the men here never noticed, there are women who like sex talk as much as men, and some of them will be up at 2:30 in the morning.

Sex talk with men they are actually attracted to floats some of their boats, not to every man.

At 2:30 AM in the morning metro is closed, buses stopped running. Dangerous for a single woman to catch a taxi to get home so they can't go home just yet so they all sit at the agency stuck and just have to talk to men? Convince me most model quality girls pay for their ride to the agency, starved for male attention, and out of any time of day they choose the wee hours in the morning to communicate with every and any man.

I know you're married but ask permission from your wife and do some research. I have not done research myself but this is a no brainer.

[Faux Pas]

As FP has pointed out, there doesn't seem to be much direct evidence (other than sculpto) of deliberate fraud or scam by HRB.
From my own point of view, I would suggest that anyone wondering about HRB should read both threads and make up their own mind.

Does HRB deserve the "Scam" label that some have given it? (as per Dan's definition of scam)
Probably not.

Now would I personally spend $1,000 or $2,000 on video chat with some girl that I'd never met?
Pretty darn unlikely....  

Read the thread(s). Judge for yourself.
Caveat emptor

Voyager

My remark (FTR) was a facetious remark to Manny based on his inference that neither I nor some of these others who question CEO's assertion or TomT's findings on the practices of HRB. I find the knowledge and experience of those posting in this thread sufficient and those people knowledgeable. All of us have ample experience in this endeavor and quite frankly all are intelligent enough to know that when we're wet, if it's raining or we're getting peed on.

I am quite surprised by Manny's and apparently now Dan's defense of HNB's practices. I apparently in my naivety were of the belief that while promoting West/East marriages it is quite "okay" to promote soft porn and sex chat on the side. Sculpto is a clown and accident looking for a happening as are many who look to the East, myself included but, he may on been on to something many of us overlooked because of the messenger.

While many in this pursuit abhor the sex tourism that goes on, I do not see that as realistic. It's a lifestyle that many, many people live both, male and female. I could be guilty of it myself on a local level during 18 years of bachelorhood.

It's not "okay" IMHO to promote finding wife material ladies and sifting the sex chat girls at the same time. Not speaking for these other guys here as they can speak for themselves. But, if we as self proclaimed advice giver's on seeking FSU woman give the stamp of approval on such practices, we are no different than sex tourist that flood in to the FSU everyday and we are not only encouraging it, we are promoting it too.

If HRB wishes to dabble in the sex industry fine, have had it and I wish them well but, separate the MOB business. Their ads and websites claim marriage minded ladies, men looking for them get bombarde with FSU whores. Most serious men, even if they are only 5% or less of HRB's overall business, do not wish to chat with whores while looking for a wife. To promote such should be condemned but, instead seems to be met with "oh it's okay because most men never get on a plane". I call a big steamy BullSh!t on that line of thought.

[Jooky]

Tom, when 30% of the online webcam girls are targetting a single man, we're not talking about 'individual scammers', we're talking about the 'core product' of the site.

Ok, so your 'investigation' was for your own personal reasons, unconnected to the main complaints against the HRB system. That was not my impression.

Regarding what are 'core issues' for you.

Corruption in the FSU.  In brief, I don't think corruption in the FSU is much more than in the US. In fact, I've seen far more corruption in California. This is a whole other topic.

Relating corruption to this topic, HRB's system is one that invites corruption and profits from it (fake webcam girls rake in profits, or do you disagree?).

I don't blame CEO for this corruption but as I've stated before and as Sabina pointed out above, he can't control it and like it or not, it helps line his pockets.

Take another site like bride.ru or Elena's models. What about smaller agencies? Where's the barrage of fake intro emails? Some do slip through the cracks, but in general it's not there because their systems do not welcome this corruption as much as HRB's.

About client's responsibility: I do think clients should be responsible. I don't pity the fools who use these sites. Nowhere have I posted that the CEO should refund his clients or anything to that effect. If you're a fool enough to be taken advantage of, accept the responsibility, but it does not excuse the person that took advantage of you. I don't see this as a core issue.

About issues the prevail amongst 'bride seekers', it's unclear what you're saying. Are you referring to the fact that many 'bride seekers' are 'knuckle shufflers', 'losers', 'My Mother Dropped Me on My Head!s', 'social misfits' or whatever you want to label them? Well, what about it? I think everyone deserves a bit of love and happiness. Nobody should be taken advantage of regardless of their stupidity or lack of social skills. The perceived 'quality' of these 'bride seekers' is irrelevant in my opinion.

It's a pity that you didn't expend as much energy searching for good women on the database in question.

I'm not sure what you're implying here. Please explain.

Honestly, although I like to think of myself as experienced, I wouldn't know where to begin to navigate the mess of a site like HRB and I'll explain why:

If I was a 60 year old short fat below average social misfit, then no way in hell would these women be contacting me first. However, I'm none of the above (aside from being a bit of a misfit). Of the hundreds of women that have tried to initiate contact with me on HRB, there are none that are 'out of my league' when compared to women I have actually dated. On a normal dating site I have been contacted by beautiful women up to 18 years younger than me, but it doesn't happen every day!

I could believe it my profile occasionally caught the eye of a pretty girl. But on HRB, they are not contacting me. They are contacting everyone.

So, how would I go about finding a serious woman? Well, I could ignore all incoming introductions. I might miss out on a few sincere ones, but not many. So I start making contacts. How do I know these girls are not the same ones that are spamming someone else with talk about bums and chocolate? I don't. Should I avoid women more than 10 years younger than me? Should I avoid girls with sexy photos? Should I approach the girls with web cams or avoid them? On the one hand I can see they are real. On the other hand it seems these are the ones luring suckers with their sex chat.

And then I'd think to myself... Why am I torturing myself with all of this? On a normal dating site I can initiate contact with any woman that catches my eye. If she's a hooker or fake profile leading to a porn site, I'll know with the first response (which by the way has never happened to me). If she's not interested she won't write back. If she writes back there is some initial interest. The best thing we're in direct contact right away. Ah, breath of fresh air. Nice and simple.

Now that's my style. I never wanted to 'expend energy' searching for the right woman. I wanted to communicate and enjoy.

Now that I've addressed your core issues I'd like to ask you a few direct questions.

Do you recommend HRB as a good site for a serious man to search for a wife?

Do you recommend HRB over other sites such as bride.ru, Elena's Models, Freepersonals.ru, Lucky Lovers or Russian dating sites? If yes, why? Please keep in mind that all these sites allow the exchange of direct contact information.

HRB comes at a much higher cost than the other sites I listed. What higher value (if any)does HRB provide for this additional cost?

The HRB newbie experience was detailed in this thread. Basically, once you sign up you are flooded with emails and chat requests from all sorts of young and pretty women. It appears that the majority of online women at any given time are sending these requests.

In this situation, how would you advise someone without experience to navigate this and instead find 'good women in the database'?

What rules would you have someone follow in order to do so? (For example: Should they ignore all women that initiate first contact? Should they avoid a certain age difference?)

Edited to add: I can't write S R M here. It was replaced (you'll see where). Hilarious. 

[Gator]

Gator, the purpose is not to "lend support" to HRB, but to lay out the facts for people to make their own judgements.

Fine, except I am surprised by the specific individuals on opposite sides of the debate.  And I find the substance of some pro HRB arguments to be a stretch, frankly insulting my logic.

And I have dismissed the checkered history of HRB because the CEO assures us that those issues are now resolved (Mr. CEO, I am still staying tuned for details).  And I also dismiss the titillation because a normal man will serious intentions will probably not be distracted for more than a few lusty moments.  

Now would I personally spend $1,000 or $2,000 on video chat with some girl that I'd never met?
Pretty darn unlikely....  

Especially if you can video chat for free by eliminating the agency from your communications.  The savings would pay for a trip.  Which is better:  hours and hours of video chat or even more time spent face to face?

[Gator]

Instead of countering the negative points made about HRB, will someone please list the positive points for using HRB. 

I appreciate three comparisons: 

-  HRB vs agencies such as EM,

-  HRB vs. free dating sites used by Jooky,

-  and HRB vs. personal agents (e. g., Eduard). 

In reading Jooky's recent post, I see that he is asking TomT for such.

[GQBlues]

Instead of countering the negative points made about HRB, will someone please list the positive points for using HRB.  
I appreciate three comparisons:  

-  HRB vs agencies such as EM,
-  HRB vs. free dating sites used by Jooky,
-  and HRB vs. personal agents (e. g., Eduard).

Gator-

Will this be strictly based on the baseline that all the men are decent, honest, dedicated, rational and don't have an ounce of fleshly desire and legitimately just want to meet a sincere woman?

[Admin]

Voyager

My remark (FTR) was a facetious remark to Manny based on his inference that neither I nor some of these others who question CEO's assertion or TomT's findings on the practices of HRB. I find the knowledge and experience of those posting in this thread sufficient and those people knowledgeable. All of us have ample experience in this endeavor and quite frankly all are intelligent enough to know that when we're wet, if it's raining or we're getting peed on.

I am quite surprised by Manny's and apparently now Dan's defense of HNB's practices. I apparently in my naivety were of the belief that while promoting West/East marriages it is quite "okay" to promote soft porn and sex chat on the side. Sculpto is a clown and accident looking for a happening as are many who look to the East, myself included but, he may on been on to something many of us overlooked because of the messenger.

While many in this pursuit abhor the sex tourism that goes on, I do not see that as realistic. It's a lifestyle that many, many people live both, male and female. I could be guilty of it myself on a local level during 18 years of bachelorhood.

It's not "okay" IMHO to promote finding wife material ladies and sifting the sex chat girls at the same time. Not speaking for these other guys here as they can speak for themselves. But, if we as self proclaimed advice giver's on seeking FSU woman give the stamp of approval on such practices, we are no different than sex tourist that flood in to the FSU everyday and we are not only encouraging it, we are promoting it too.

If HRB wishes to dabble in the sex industry fine, have had it and I wish them well but, separate the MOB business. Their ads and websites claim marriage minded ladies, men looking for them get bombarde with FSU whores. Most serious men, even if they are only 5% or less of HRB's overall business, do not wish to chat with whores while looking for a wife. To promote such should be condemned but, instead seems to be met with "oh it's okay because most men never get on a plane". I call a big steamy BullSh!t on that line of thought.

>>now Dan's defense of HNB's practices.<<

What "defense"?!?

I *thought* my posts were aimed at; (a) taking yet another 'run' at trying to define what is - and what is NOT - scamming behavior, and (b) recognizing that IMBRA mandates IMB interaction that was NOT necessary pre-IMBRA (for those who use an IMB), and (c) stating that mere suspicion of guilt is NOT the same as determination of guilt.

I'll ask yet again - have you read the topics linked repeatedly upthread? They were posted PRIOR to this current debate, and they should provide a great deal of helpful context. At a minimum, it may aid those who participated in both (or all three) topics to not contradict themselves.

- Dan

[Admin]

Edited to add: I can't write S R M here. It was replaced (you'll see where). Hilarious. 

ROFLMAO

Jooky - when RWD was first getting running and RWG was going strong and SmoothOperator was promoting his acronym list at RWG, there were guys coming over and insulting a bunch of our members with his garbage acronyms, so I set the word censor to replace a couple of them.

I distinctly recall Manny being REALLY *REALLY* upset with me the first time he encountered that one you just found - probably because it surprised him - as it just surprised you. That particular word censor probably hasn't been invoked in 2 or 3 years - till today.

Sorry about that.

- Dan

[Admin]

Instead of countering the negative points made about HRB, will someone please list the positive points for using HRB. 

I appreciate three comparisons: 

-  HRB vs agencies such as EM,

-  HRB vs. free dating sites used by Jooky,

-  and HRB vs. personal agents (e. g., Eduard). 

In reading Jooky's recent post, I see that he is asking TomT for such.

Sounds like a good 'ol-fashioned 'competitive analysis' and one that SHOULD be prepared.

I envision a table with attributes on one side and various purveyors across the top (EM - HRB - Eddie - A-web - Etc.), with checkmarks or notes in the intersecting cells to address their conformance to those attributes (or maybe a graded scale if not a Boolean checkmark).

Maybe start with the ACoE to help form the list of attributes?

- Dan

[TomT]

HRB/RLM girls don't take off their clothes...

In the interest of historical accuracy, some Hot Russian Brides did take off their clothes during video chat. They were removed from the database, though. If CEO had been thinking only about the financial angle, he would have let them stay. I'm sure that they were a big hit with the viewers.