Review/Critique/Roast of HRB/RLM

[Gator]

Gator-

Will this be strictly based on the baseline that all the men are decent, honest, dedicated, rational and don't have an ounce of fleshly desire and legitimately just want to meet a sincere woman?

Even Jimmy Carter had lust in his heart. 

But yes, the goals are 1) connect with women who have a sincere interest in the man as a possible husband and 2) learn enough about each other to justify a trip.  Goal #2 would have two variants:  VO and VM (one needs to know less to justify a VM trip).

[Gator]

In the interest of historical accuracy, some Hot Russian Brides did take off their clothes during video chat. They were removed from the database, though. If CEO had been thinking only about the financial angle, he would have let them stay. I'm sure that they were a big hit with the viewers.

How did HRB discover that the women disrobed?

Very few RW would do this, yet I have encountered a couple of such RW who voluntarily initiated this and are sincerely interested in marriage.  They enjoyed their sexuality and I guess they want to be sure that the man is comfortable with it.   However, to get to this point took many, many sessions (free, of course).

[Jooky]

GQ, you definitely need to cross rational off that list.  

Ok, we could also start with this question:

Does anyone here have any doubt that the girls spamming Facetrock and others are not false lures trying to drum up business?

If you think that these girls with their sex chat invites might be truly interested in the profiles Facetrock and others posted as a potential husband, please raise your hand.

This question goes out to everyone, especially those defending HRB's business model.

[GQBlues]

Even Jimmy Carter had lust in his heart.  

But yes, the goals are 1) connect with women who have a sincere interest in the man as a possible husband and 2) learn enough about each other to justify a trip.  Goal #2 would have two variants:  VO and VM (one needs to know less to justify a VM trip).

I don't mean to be contrarian (although I may be for even saying this) but who determines that? How does one make the distinction of what makes a man presumably 'honest' and 'sincere' if you don't really know the man? Is giving a benefit of doubt to someone enough to classify anyone' honest' and sincere'?

Do we classify someone as a honest and sincere man because he prohibits himself for swimming in the sheets, or forego the process of shacking up just because it's available and enjoys the bounty along the way?

It's been said that only 5% of the men (I don't know how folks determined that percentage) actually make the trip. Does this automatically make them honest and sincere? My opinion on that is - 'no'.

Moreover, I know a 61 yo man here in LA who married a 31 yo Ukrainian woman who was a video gal and yes, she admits to doing it as 'work'. They divorced after 3 years and he was the one who initiated the divorce. It turned out he was addicted to suscribing to videocam and continued to do so after getting married. Was this a scam?

When do honest 'bride-seekers' get to be held accountable for their actions?

[Gator]

If you think that these girls with their sex chat invites might be truly interested in the profiles Facetrock and others posted as a potential husband, please raise your hand.

Please, not raise the hand!  Just have them grunt, otherwise they would need to stop masturbating.

Actually, I ignored the false lures in deciding about HRB.  I also ignored the complaints about past questionable practices done by the local agencies.  I am still waiting for CEO to describe his recent initiatives to correct these issues.

[Shadow]

GQ, you definitely need to cross rational off that list.  

Ok, we could also start with this question:

Does anyone here have any doubt that the girls spamming Facetrock and others are not false lures trying to drum up business?

If you think that these girls with their sex chat invites might be truly interested in the profiles Facetrock and others posted as a potential husband, please raise your hand.

This question goes out to everyone, especially those defending HRB's business model.

As for defending, I am not defending HRB any more than A-Web, EM or any other business out there, including the so-called free sites that also are nothing but a business model.

As for these girls, I am positive that they are not directly interested at marriage with the profile Facetrock provided. It would be fun to find out what their interests are, if someone can spare me the credits to do so. The results would be either a report to CEO on which he would have to take action to maintain credibility, or something entirely unexpected by most here.

The question is, do these girls make the business model flawed ? And if so, what solution would you offer for the business model without turning it in to a non-profit organization ?

[wicheese]

OK, I am not a fan or HRB/RLM or any of the other big sites, as I used a few in the past and I will say they never added real value to my search based on other options available.  But, since I had not used HRB previously and had lumped it into the same heap of useless sites as the others I used, I thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt as I had commented on them in the past, plus I was wondering what would happen if I used a real profile (most of those in this thread seemed to use false profiles).  So this is my initial review of the site, up to this point, as I was more curious if CEO's claims (IMO, slick marketing comments) held any water (plus, I've wasted $30 in worst endeavors).  

First, CEO claims a 99.9% satisfaction rate because it's only 1/10th of a percent who successfully claim a charge back.  What he did not mention is that he put a lot of effort into writing a statement that you will agree to the charges when making the purchase and will not ask for a charge back.  In other words, most people will own their purchase after that point, even if they realize they were suckers for buying credits (it should be noted that the lowest amout you can buy is $30, but by default they have the amount set at $199, so how many men miss resetting that one?).  On this point alone, using the charge back rate as a satisfaction gauge, makes the CEO look clueless in his understanding of Customer Satisfaction which I doubt is really the case.

Creating the profile is about the same as any other site, I did add in specifics in my profile of what I would consider, just in case the ladies reading it really cared to know.

Searching for profiles:  This is a really weak point of HRB, especially if you are going to look for a potential wife.  The reason why I say this is due to the fact that having an equivalent education level is important along with having shared interests.  You do not have options to search on either (plus no keyword search in the profile) which makes me think it's all about the picture of the lady to the HRB folks (since the CEO said he put a lot of money into the site) as men are visual creatures, but what about the few serious searchers?  Anyways, I did my search and had about 70 profiles which were returned out of the database of 13,000+.  

Garbage distractions: The site is loaded with them.  In the first 24 hours I received over 150 emails, most of which were from ladies younger than my stated minimum age.  Also, the several times I logged in, I was swamped with chat requests which I could care less about.  What surprised me was the volume of them that are received within the first minute of my logging in and in this regards, I'm not sure what checks HRB has, but they should have one that forces the lady to look at the profile (can't force them to read it) and then check off at the bottom of it before they are allowed to initiate a chat.  This would definitely reduce the dishonest chat requests or should we say delay their arrival.  

Profiles viewed:  Yep, they are marketing skin....I think back to how I got started in the search and might have even written a few because even though you know it's mostly a scam, there is a chance.  Remember, most of us got into the FSUW search because we are greedy in the context that we felt we deserved better than what we could attract in our own markets (you do not need to agree with me, but IMO this seems to be true) and with such a mindset it's easy to let a few coins trickle out of the pocket.  I should say that I did recognize a few profiles I had seen on other sites years ago.

Letters received: VAST majority did not read my profile as they do not qualify based on what I"m looking for.  But, a few seemed legit.  The age range was from 18 to 50 (BTW, I'm in my 40's).  In other words, you can find a real lady but you'll need to shift through a lot of garbage and be more than a little lucky and that's even before you start worrying about the ladies true motive which we all know is economics to a certain degree.  Note, this might be a credit to HRB, but when I did my initial search, I tagged a few profiles as favorites expecting that I would receive letters from all of them if the site was a 100% scam site, but it was a rather low percentage of those that sent me letters in the first 36 hours.

Cost: I doubt anyone would suggest a pay-per-letter site as there are too many alternatives these days.  At least you do not pay to open the letters and just send them if I understand the operation correctly.  Plus, it can cost a lot of money if you start responding to the e-mails, but as others say, this search is not for the underfunded as even the free options become expensive when you start getting on a plane.  Now with that said, I do believe other sites may offer a better return as I had good success on Elena's Models and for a low fee (to improve my search capability) also had success on singles.ru.  Now knowing what I know, if I started again with the FSUW search, I would use a service like Ed and he's expensive, but at least you do not waste time looking for someone who is not serious so in the long run it might be a lot cheaper option (especially if you project out and look at the long term success rates of these marriages).

Now as a comparison to regular dating sites, I would not recommend a newbie to look into the FSUW.  You can still find nice ladies in your own country and it's a lot less hassle than dealing with the overseas adventure (unless you like the adventures, such as I do).  I would also not recommend the pay-per-letter sites as you have a lot of options these days and as other posters have mentioned, you will run into scammers on the free sites, but you are in direct contact and it's not costing you anything and on that basis, so the CEO still has a ways to go before his site can be called a legit scammer free site (after all, why pay a premium price when you are getting the same service as all the others that cost a lot less to contact a lady).  

[TomT]

How did HRB discover that the women disrobed?

The video hostess has thumbnails of the video streaming displayed on her monitor. (The right to monitor is covered in HRB's user agreement.)

Having known a woman, myself, who was clothing-challenged (and extremely libidinous), I can't say that nudity in and of itself proves anything, one way or the other. On the average, it should be taken as a big red flag if it appears early in correspondence, though.

[Jooky]

wicheese's post makes me think of a very relevant question.

What do the ladies on HRB see? I've seen what women see when using Elena's, bride.ru, etc.

What do they see if they are using HRB? How do they browse men's profiles? If there's nothing to hide, let's see the site.

Edit: As I checked my profile, over 50% of the girls on web cam are requesting chats with me right now. Again, what does this reveal about the core product?

[BC]

As for these girls, I am positive that they are not directly interested at marriage with the profile Facetrock provided. It would be fun to find out what their interests are, if someone can spare me the credits to do so. The results would be either a report to CEO on which he would have to take action to maintain credibility, or something entirely unexpected by most here.

Shadow,

This brings up a very good point for those that posted fictitious and even absurd profiles on HRB.  It would seem to me that they would be ignored by serious women whereas responding might be entertained by those with secondary motives.  That old computer adage bullshit in, bullshit out comes to mind.

Send 10 surveyors with big noses out to 1000 random women and ask them 'Do you like big noses?'.. I'd be willing to bet that most if not all the women will like big noses regardless of their true feelings.  Folks doing these informal surveys should try to be as realistic as possible to properly conduct a survey.

I wonder if the response would be any different with a factual, well written profile from a man that a majority of women  could consider desirable and sincere...

[Jooky]

I wonder if the response would be any different with a factual, well written profile from a man that a majority of women  could consider desirable and sincere...

BC, Wicheese posted a real profile. I have both real and absurd. The result is exactly the same.

Edited to add: Many posters who have used HRB with their real profiles have reported the same results as well. Even Sculpto. 

[Admin]

GQ, you definitely need to cross rational off that list. 

Ok, we could also start with this question:

Does anyone here have any doubt that the girls spamming Facetrock and others are not false lures trying to drum up business?

If you think that these girls with their sex chat invites might be truly interested in the profiles Facetrock and others posted as a potential husband, please raise your hand.

This question goes out to everyone, especially those defending HRB's business model.

>>Does anyone here have any doubt that the girls spamming Facetrock and others are not false lures trying to drum up business?<<

OK - very little time to reply, and should probably wait till I have more - BUT - in the 3 minutes I have:

Start here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12304.msg242111#msg242111 - which is Reply # 82 . . .

And read through to here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12304.msg242323#msg242323 - Reply # 161.

Of course, feel free to read prior and subsequent posts - but those are the gist of the answer.

Also - starting here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7756.msg150354#msg150354, Reply # 80 - and continuing to the end of the topic - Reply # 115.

In the case of this 2nd linked topic, however, reading the previous posts are probably a waste of time as they are just a bunch of sniping - but starting with Reply # 80, at least from my POV, it seems to address much of this.

Now - having again referred you all to previous topics addressing this same 'issue' - it should be clear (I hope) that I am NOT making a defense of any practice, but neither am I condemning any practice - YET.

Before we can either condone or condemn, there must be a clear and unequivocal definition of what is, and what is not, condemnable behavior.

I *really* like Gator's suggestion for a 'competitive analysis.' Focus on those attributes that should be measured would be an excellent starting point - and we have the Agency Code of Ethics I mentioned earlier - and we also have Sandro's "Agency Card" found over in the left frame among the "Scam Avoidance" tools. Using those (the ACoE and the ScamCard) to begin the process of defining the attributes to be scored and measured seems the most rational approach - especially since I cannot seem to persuade anyone to come up with a clear and unequivocal definition of a "SCAM" - though I have tried for years.

Unlike some, I am VERY slow to condemn - witness the amount of time I've spent trying to reform wayward members - as some of our Moderators can attest. I see this no different. I will condemn if/when there is a clear basis to do so - and not until. We still do not have that basis.

If you choose to interpret my actions as "defense" of a business practice - I really cannot help that. I assure you that I am more than willing to condemn poor behavior - as I have condemned the hypocrisy of Jim and his blacklist sites for years.

Define the basis for the condemnation. In light of previous topics, that is not yet concluded.

In the meantime - and as always - RWD promotes individual choice. In this topic there has been some illuminating material presented. Quite obviously, for some, that is enough to convince them to take their business elsewhere. THAT is what RWD is all about - presenting the materials and encouraging people to apply what fits for them.

And for the record - if I walked into a bar IRL filled with pros who were lavishing attention on me (and I have in years past) - AND - if my intent was not to just fill the evening, but to find a life partner - the bother of the unsolicited attention would be unsettling if only for the waste of my time. If I felt a potential life-partner might be in that bar, I would probably deal with the unsolicited attention and wade my way through it. At A-web when we did the experiment linked above, it was not that difficult to avoid the unsolicited emails and chat requests. Is it difficult to avoid at HRB?

- Dan

[GQBlues]

....Now as a comparison to regular dating sites, I would not recommend a newbie to look into the FSUW.  You can still find nice ladies in your own country and it's a lot less hassle than dealing with the overseas adventure...

Nor will I.

Is the business model shaped by the women in the sites or the men that subscribe to it? IMO, it's the latter. Certainly, the 5% of the lot is not nearly enough to dictate commerce, does it?

[Chelseaboy]

BC,
   I posted a real profile,with my real photo's on HRB.

[BC]

BC, Wicheese posted a real profile. I have both real and absurd. The result is exactly the same.

Edited to add: Many posters who have used HRB with their real profiles have reported the same results as well. Even Sculpto. 

Are you all desirable?

 

[Jooky]

Are you all desirable?

Hey, I'm just as desireable as Facetrock's short fat bald Muslim Yiddish speaking 60 year old!

[TomT]

Now that I've addressed your core issues I'd like to ask you a few direct questions.

Do you recommend HRB as a good site for a serious man to search for a wife?

Do you recommend HRB over other sites such as bride.ru, Elena's Models, Freepersonals.ru, Lucky Lovers or Russian dating sites? If yes, why? Please keep in mind that all these sites allow the exchange of direct contact information.

HRB comes at a much higher cost than the other sites I listed. What higher value (if any)does HRB provide for this additional cost?

The HRB newbie experience was detailed in this thread. Basically, once you sign up you are flooded with emails and chat requests from all sorts of young and pretty women. It appears that the majority of online women at any given time are sending these requests.

In this situation, how would you advise someone without experience to navigate this and instead find 'good women in the database'?

What rules would you have someone follow in order to do so? (For example: Should they ignore all women that initiate first contact? Should they avoid a certain age difference?)

1) Yes, but they can't be as stupid as they wannabe and expect to get positive results.

2) I have no first hand knowledge of the other above sites so I can't offer an informed opinion.

3) If good-faith attempts to validate women, a responsive customer service department and 24-hour assistance are worth something, there is some of the added value.

4) I would advise focussing one's efforts on making the first contact with women but to keep his eyes open in case a normal woman slips through the cracks.

5) There are no hard and fast rules. One has to be able to think on one's feet. If I had to paint with a broad bush, however, I would suggest avoiding all women younger than twenty-five and to be very cautious with those under thirty. (This applies equally to domestic vs international,  to HRB vs their competitors and to IMB's vs free sites.)

[Jooky]

Tom, I appreciate the answers.

However, you must realize that you come across biased when you can't comment on other sites claiming no first hand knowledge, but you do recommend HRB having never even logged on and used the site.

What sites have you used to meet women?

Validating women... seems to me other sites do a better job as there are less bogus intros to sort through.

Customer service and 24 hour assistance. Not of extra value to me. I don't see any use for it unless there are actual problems with the site itself.

Reasonable rules, but if I had applied these I would have never met my past or current girlfriends. Applying any rules wasn't necessary for me on other sites. The main rule was 'if she don't like you, she won't write you back'.

Again thanks for the direct response. Much better than one of your witty one liners. ;-)

[facetrock]

  Well my days on HRB are over. My account has been administratively restricted. Damn!! I still had 42 credits left. All I did was write one letter to a girl asking her where she was putting the chocolate  and another telling her how controlling I am but that was in my profile. Tried to chat with one girl but I think she was so busy talking to everyone else it was so damn slow I quit. Now I am banned. Thirty bucks down the drain. No threesome for me

[wicheese]

 Well my days on HRB are over. My account has been administratively restricted. Damn!! I still had 42 credits left. All I did was write one letter to a girl asking her where she was putting the chocolate  and another telling her how controlling I am but that was in my profile. Tried to chat with one girl but I think she was so busy talking to everyone else it was so damn slow I quit. Now I am banned. Thirty bucks down the drain. No threesome for me

From an entertainment standpoint, I'm sure you got value for your dollar.  Plus, it's reassuring to know that OLD FAT MEN are so desirable to an FSUW.  

Now the question is, will CEO dig through all our posts and use the few nuggets of value to improve his site or write them off as they are so full of BS (a lot easier than having to shift through all the profiles to find those that are really serious)?  

My challenge to him is:

1. Do a true customer satisfaction survey as suggested on this site (I'm guessing they already have, but the positives marks are a lot lower than 99.9%).

2. Do something that forces the lady to view your profile before initiating chat (maybe you do already, so you can explain).

3. Have a mutual match section, let the man set an age range of who he's looking for and if a lady is not in that age range, the prohibit her from initiating chat (the same needs to be done for the women as I noticed a few profiles where they wrote realistic age ranges in their profiles as they might be contacted by a lot of old geezers).

4. Improve your search capability.  You really need to include education level or did I miss it?  You really need to include an interest/activity option as well as all the mainstream sites (e.g. match.com) have these.  Have a keyword search.  I'm thinking if this was the case then I would have had a lot few than 70 matches on my initial query.

5. If you are so certain of the quality of your site, give the men a 24 hour period where they can ask for a refund if not 100% satisfied on an initial purchase (with your restrictions on direct contact information you'll not be loosing too much revenue as the keyboard romeos will not mind paying and those who are renewing know what they are getting).

6. You talk about the people you have working for you and your investment in the site, so why not implement an algorithm that tracks women's profiles who are spamming (if they are then have them deleted as these are probably some of your biggest problems) as I remember being contacted by some of the same ladies who contacted men who had false profiles posted.

These are things that will improve your site, if you really care about constructive comment.  But, they might also cost a little revenue (maybe offset by the better press you would receive).  Anyways, as with anything in life, do what you want with the free comments...

[tim 360]

  Well my days on HRB are over. My account has been administratively restricted. Damn!! I still had 42 credits left. All I did was write one letter to a girl asking her where she was putting the chocolate  and another telling her how controlling I am but that was in my profile. Tried to chat with one girl but I think she was so busy talking to everyone else it was so damn slow I quit. Now I am banned. Thirty bucks down the drain. No threesome for me

Banned?  Why?  I'm sure the CEO will send you a refund for the 30 bucks.  Afterall he is a 99.9% kinda guy and customer satisfaction is # 1.

Do you feel like you were scammed?

[tim 360]

Instead of countering the negative points made about HRB, will someone please list the positive points for using HRB. 

I appreciate three comparisons: 

-  HRB vs agencies such as EM,

-  HRB vs. free dating sites used by Jooky,

-  and HRB vs. personal agents (e. g., Eduard). 

In reading Jooky's recent post, I see that he is asking TomT for such.

This is a really sound idea Gator.  Like an Agency Website ratings, rankings.  But maybe instead of just relegating it to a few, the concept could be broadened to include other sites like Bride.ru and Singles.ru, FRP,  ete, etc.  With bullet points listing pro's and con's of each and a side by side comparison of ranking criteria.  Include things like...ethics,  value,  customer service +/-'s.  This way the newer guys could have a solid breakdown all in one place instead of searching through years of threads.  Kinda like a JD Power Rating.

[TomT]

However, you must realize that you come across biased when you can't comment on other sites claiming no first hand knowledge, but you do recommend HRB having never even logged on and used the site.

What sites have you used to meet women?

Validating women... seems to me other sites do a better job as there are less bogus intros to sort through.

Customer service and 24 hour assistance. Not of extra value to me. I don't see any use for it unless there are actual problems with the site itself.

Reasonable rules, but if I had applied these I would have never met my past or current girlfriends. Applying any rules wasn't necessary for me on other sites. The main rule was 'if she don't like you, she won't write you back'.

I have no objection to being thought of as biased, full of BS, a shill or whatever. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you.

Before IMBRA, I used AFA and the Angelika Network. After IMBRA, I used forums, scam sites and some help from my friends. I also tried freepersonal.ru briefly but became bored with the scammers.

Perhaps some sites validate women better than others; I have no opinion about that. It's a pity that our ex-wives weren't properly validated.

I don't disagree that customer service and 24-hour assistance are of no value to you. They must be of value to someone; I spent a day on each watching clients use them.

Ah... the infamous missed opportunities...  If only we had a few hundred more years to play with, we would have the luxury of thoroughly checking out each and every lead. We don't, though, so we have to make a few intuitive leaps. (That's where it gets tricky.)
 

[SANDRO43]

This is a really sound idea Gator.  Like an Agency Website ratings, rankings.  But maybe instead of just relegating it to a few, the concept could be broadened to include other sites like Bride.ru and Singles.ru, FRP,  ete, etc.  With bullet points listing pro's and con's of each and a side by side comparison of ranking criteria. Include things like...ethics,  value,  customer service +/-'s. This way the newer guys could have a solid breakdown all in one place instead of searching through years of threads.  Kinda like a JD Power Rating.

Which involves members doing some WORK, apparently a not very appealing proposition here: 2 years ago we came up with a trial project for agency evaluation (the Agency Card in the Scam Avoidance menu at left: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=6), asking/expecting members to pitch in and contribute in refining it - no takers .

[tim 360]

Sandro,  Didn't know.  No takers?  Would not seem too difficult for guys to do a short rating of the agencies they used and pro's and con's--but I guess I am mistaken.