Review/Critique/Roast of HRB/RLM

[Misha]

What would be the motivation for a woman on Mamba to lure a sucker without an agency behind her to profit?

Plus, a woman on Mamba is not specifically looking for a foreigner. She is looking for a local guy, but many will be happy to marry the right man even if he is not local 

[Faux Pas]

I think we can all see the problem here.

As per Boethius's request, I wont upset you further with facts or logic on this topic Faux Pas.

Readers can draw their own conclusions about your bizarre statements.

Well thats mighty *cough* gentlemanly  of you Manny. You're not capable of upsetting me, hopefully your ego can take the blow? There was nothing bizarre in my statements. What about them did you not understand? One with all your credibility, knowledge and experience, surely you didn't get confused did you?

[BC]

What would be the motivation for a woman on Mamba to lure a sucker without an agency behind her to profit?

Same as why on icq you get invitations to video chat from enterprising exhibitionists.  I get a few per week. I have to leave icq open for chats with folks that aren't buddies for business purposes.

ICQ is often used for distribution of unwanted advertisement and spam.[6] This is facilitated by ICQ's use of usernames consisting of multiple-digit numbers.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICQ

Chat and video chat platforms provide good and often free infrastructure to sell their warez without using a middleman who takes a cut for providing their platform.  Just about any woman can make make a few bucks with a webcam and computer at home.

[Manny]

Well thats mighty *cough* gentlemanly  of you Manny. You're not capable of upsetting me, hopefully your ego can take the blow? There was nothing bizarre in my statements. What about them did you not understand? One with all your credibility, knowledge and experience, surely you didn't get confused did you?

Can I refer you to the mods previous comment and request you quit trolling? Go open a topic in NHB if you can't help yourself sniping.

[Jooky]

Same as why on icq you get invitations to video chat from enterprising exhibitionists.  I get a few per week. I have to leave icq open for chats with folks that aren't buddies for business purposes.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICQ

Chat and video chat platforms provide good and often free infrastructure to sell their warez without using a middleman who takes a cut for providing their platform.  Just about any woman can make make a few bucks with a webcam and computer at home.

BC, I guess you're trying to play devil's advocate, but I wasn't referring to women luring men to check out a porn site.

I was referring to women that actually lure men to their country, in particular the type of men that have been used to excuse the passage of IMBRA and apparently forthcoming legislation. Has this happened to you on ICQ? It hasn't to me and my ICQ is literally on 24 hours / day unless I am restarting my computer. It hasn't happened to me on Mamba.

Regarding spam, compare the volume that you mentioned. I get maybe 2-3 spam per day on ICQ (I get a pop up to auto block it). On Mamba I received about 5 spam over a period of 6 months. Those are on very open sites.

On HRB you can get up to 50 spam chat requests at any moment you are logged on. That's on a site with a much lower population that IRQ or Mamba and that boasts how it has the best monitoring and policing in the dating industry. You really don't see the difference?

To me it's clear that while on one system (ICQ) the spam do slip through, on the other (HRB) the spam are a welcomed part of their business model. Do you disagree?

[Jooky]

I bet that is *really* inconvenient for your -- as yet undisclosed -- agenda here isn't it?

Has your deluded mind thought about what my 'undisclosed agenda' might be?

An answer would be amusing for sure.

For our readers, my agenda has been the same since my first days posting on RWG.

When I first found that board I had already been to Russia and had many Russian friends, but I had no first hand experience with the 'bride business'. I was planning a trip to Russia and Ukraine and at that time exchanging some emails and phone conversations with a gal in Ukraine that I just couldn't figure out.

First of all she was cute and 5 years younger than me. She was in no way 'out of my league' but her video did attract me.

Her emails came every day but were odd to me, not like a typical email conversation, more like a happy form letter with my name inserted throughout. I'd seen her video, heard her voice on the video and talked to her on the phone. Same gal for sure. On the phone she was the same as in her emails, strangely enthusiastic and impersonal at the same time. If she had asked me for cash it all would have been clear. But she didn't. She wanted me to come visit.

I'm no dummy, but I didn't get it. I guessed that she wanted me to come spend a bit of cash on her, but like I said, I already had friends in Russia. I couldn't imagine any of them being so desperate to lure a guy across the world and have him waste a few thousand bucks just so she could get a few fancy dinners and a new coat.

Well, truth is stranger than fiction and the RWG set me straight. I found a guy on the site who was talking to the same gal and she was scheduling time with him right after she expected I would leave. (When 'her vacation was over'). So the pieces fell into place. Pro-dater who doesn't care if her sucker spends 2000 bucks for every 500 she gets. Pathetic, but it happens.

A month later, armed with some good advice from the RWG, I headed to Russia for the second time in my life, met some nice ladies, made some good friends, found a serious gal and had a blast!

Since then my 'agenda' hasn't changed: share my experience, tell stories and most of all return the favor and help guys from being mislead. Over the years many guys have benefited from my advice and I've been thanked many times for it.

What is Manny's 'agenda'? Plain and simple: profit.  :usdeyes:

What is Tom's 'agenda'? Considering his current attitudes come after being wined and dined by an agency owner who publicly declared a lucrative business opportunity involving earnings of $250,000 per month for little work, I'll let you guys take a guess.

The rest of you playing devil's advocate, I will still counter, as while you are entertaining yourself, my main agenda is still to help.

[TomT]

What is Tom's 'agenda'? Considering his current attitudes come after being wined and dined by an agency owner who publicly declared a lucrative business opportunity involving earnings of $250,000 per month for little work, I'll let you guys take a guess.

As I have told others privately, CEO didn't propose any business arrangements with me; he simply did exactly as he promised and, at no time, misrepresented himself. This is in sharp contrast to the way that you misrepresent the statements of others (especially mine). My comments from the old RWG can be viewed on the link that Billy provided. Based on that, you would be hard pressed to show how my "current attitudes" differ from my previous attitudes. Not to worry, in the absence of hard evidence, one can simply speculate, project and lie.

I can't say that my cameo appearance was a complete waste of time, however. It validated my initial reluctance to post any meaningful content.

[Misha]

That depends on what you call rational.
Spending $3000 and one week to make a trip across the ocean, spend hundreds on communication but not send a $50 gift that the woman may enjoy just as much as a personal appearance.

It is one thing to send some flowers using a non-agency service to a woman you will be visiting on a WOVO after weeks or months of communication by phone/email/Skype, and sending flowers to a woman on an HRB-type site with the hopes that the hottie will choose you if you are the first to send her the flowers (as I believe TomT hinted). The latter reeks of desperation and IMHO would be utter foolishness 

[Shadow]

It is one thing to send some flowers using a non-agency service to a woman you will be visiting on a WOVO after weeks or months of communication by phone/email/Skype, and sending flowers to a woman on an HRB-type site with the hopes that the hottie will choose you if you are the first to send her the flowers (as I believe TomT hinted). The latter reeks of desperation and IMHO would be utter foolishness 

And where it is suggested that the latter is a good policy ? Just because they offer the service and advertise it, does not mean they recommend sending every woman that contacts a gift.

[Misha]

And where it is suggested that the latter is a good policy ? Just because they offer the service and advertise it, does not mean they recommend sending every woman that contacts a gift.

Read the original post that I replied to 

[Jooky]

My comments from the old RWG can be viewed on the link that Billy provided. Based on that, you would be hard pressed to show how my "current attitudes" differ from my previous attitudes. Not to worry, in the absence of hard evidence, one can simply speculate, project and lie.

Tom, could you point out to me where in the old thread or any other from that period where you:

1) Recommended HRB as a good way for a guy to find a bride.

I don't recall you ever recommending HRB, AWeb or any of these less reputable sites that follow the same business model in the past. If you did, please show us a link. What I see is that your attitude towards recommending these type of sites changed after your HRB visit although you have never used the site yourself.

2) Recommend that agencies monitor your communications.

I believe you did applaud this practice on the current RUA HRB thread. I do recall that you sensibly have recommended direct contact in the past. That's a change in attitude. Is my recollection wrong? Have you always recommended agencies that restrict direct contact?

3) Recommend 'sifting the wheat from the chaff' as a good way for a guy to find a bride.

I do recall you often defending women who are listed as scammers in the past. Now, rather than defend these women, you are admitting they are spammers to be sifted through and avoided. Again, that's a change in attitude, and I believe it's because it's too foolish to come to the defense of such obvious intentional deception.

The issue is not about the legality of Mr. Pearson's business. In that respect I agreed with you back then as I do now. The guy has himself well covered legally. Who cares? That's not the 'core issue' here.

Regarding me misrepresenting what you said in the past in that thread, I'll take the liberty of copying all of your posts from that thread here:

Class Action Suit Against HotRussianBrides
Posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 at 5:07 PM

Chris,

If I were a juror and I read your last post, I would conclude that your prospective civil suit is frivolous. If I were in HRB's position, my next move would be a countersuit. In this case, you would definitely need to pay for an attorney.

Why you are posting information that is so damaging to yourself on the Internet is beyond me.

Class Action Suit Against HotRussianBrides
Posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 at 5:17 PM

Chris,

You seem to not be getting my point.

Electronic communications are admissible in court. You have stated that your purpose for your prospective classification lawsuit is to drive HRB into bankruptcy. These words can get you into legal difficulty. If you are serious about a lawsuit, you should get some qualified legal advice.

FYI, it would be illegal for someone to tell you that you should delete evidence.

Class Action Suit Against HotRussianBrides
Posted Thursday, January 12, 2006 at 11:38 AM


Scott Jay has been reading this thread. He said that the idea of a class action lawsuit against HRB is bull*snip*. He would post for himself but he can't login.

You may now resume your off-topic chatter or your delusional bull*snip*, as the case may be.

That's it. Nothing about your general attitudes in favor of HRB as a viable bridal site. So to point to that thread as a comparison is disingenuous.

Now if you can show me posts in those past years where you recommended HRB or similar sites that don't allow direct communication and where you have to sift through the spam, let's see it.

Maybe I am wrong and if you can point it out, ok. I just recall your advice to be far more sensible than now.

In fact, in recent thread about AWeb on RUA where a guy had to go through the trouble of separating a lady from the agency you say:

The process seems excruciating but I suppose that one has to balance this against the large number of ladies on such sites

Hardly a recommendation of these type of agencies. Yet you do recommend HRB although you've never used it.  

[BC]

BC, I guess you're trying to play devil's advocate, but I wasn't referring to women luring men to check out a porn site.

I was referring to women that actually lure men to their country, in particular the type of men that have been used to excuse the passage of IMBRA and apparently forthcoming legislation. Has this happened to you on ICQ? It hasn't to me and my ICQ is literally on 24 hours / day unless I am restarting my computer. It hasn't happened to me on Mamba.

Regarding spam, compare the volume that you mentioned. I get maybe 2-3 spam per day on ICQ (I get a pop up to auto block it). On Mamba I received about 5 spam over a period of 6 months. Those are on very open sites.

On HRB you can get up to 50 spam chat requests at any moment you are logged on. That's on a site with a much lower population that IRQ or Mamba and that boasts how it has the best monitoring and policing in the dating industry. You really don't see the difference?

To me it's clear that while on one system (ICQ) the spam do slip through, on the other (HRB) the spam are a welcomed part of their business model. Do you disagree?

Think I understand Jooky.  Yes I do like to play devil's advocate and use Occam's Razor to try and simplify seemingly complex problems.

Obviously you and others are receiving unsolicited invitations from someone at HRB.  If it's from actual women, then it's simply unsolicited invitations.  If they are produced somehow by HRB then I would classify it as SPAM. - still a rather long shot from claiming SCAM.  I guess we could generally agree that many RW related commercial enterprises generate solicitations, usually within their contractual terms, with the main difference being the amount which you and others and even I might find unreasonable or objectionable.

I think it's also reasonable to assume that enterprising ladies might use a number of platforms to entice.  Given that HRB is video oriented, one might consider that it would likely receive a higher level of participation for those in that game.

Regarding men lured to FSU by such ladies, I have to wonder about that a little bit.  Skimming off the top of these websites would seem to be a lot more profitable than the hassle of going further.  I bet there are few confused guys left standing at the airport arrival hall in Borispol or SVO every day for a variety of causes regardless of source. From your experience you like Mamba, that's great and good thought food for those listening.  I do wonder about some in their top 100 though.. - see attachment - how many would consider travel for her?  What's her game?

Whether or not this 'situation' is condoned by HRB is a question I can't answer, but only speculate about - it will be up to CEO to clarify that point.

[Jooky]

Call it scam, spam, rip-off, whatever. What you name it isn't that important. It is what it is, and it's not ladies contacting you with sincere interest.

What we call it, or whether the CEO is legally liable is irrelevant here in my opinion. It's more useful to do as Dan suggested and put together a list of pros and cons of various sites, and this should include things that most likely happen at agencies, not in order to condemn them but to alert clients to what they are most likely working around, and whether, given the other available options, it's worth it to do so.

For example, a lot of small agencies recruit women. Agencies are required to bring in a certain amount of revenue or be dropped by larger sites. Is this good or bad? Hey, a woman can be recruited and paid and might still fall in love.

Still, we should let men know that this stuff does happen often rather than pretend it's a 'few slipping through the cracks', make excuses for it or philosophize about what whether we should call this a scam or not.

Buyer beware... so let's help the buyer know what to beware rather than call him stupid for not figuring it out on his own. Now, if he still falls for the fake girls after all of our sage advice, then call him stupid. 

I do wonder about some in their top 100 though.. - see attachment - how many would consider travel for her?  What's her game?

Not sure, I'd have to talk to her. Maybe a hooker. Maybe a fake ad for a porn site. Maybe just a horny chick. Whatever her game is, I doubt she's luring Westerners to Russia for any reason, especially in the pretense of being a good bride.

[Jooky]

Skimming off the top of these websites would seem to be a lot more profitable than the hassle of going further.

For the main site, I agree.

For the small local agency, I don't. If the agency lures a westerner to Ukraine, they also profit from additional dates, gifts, taxis, tours, apartment rentals, interpreters and other services. Small agencies do usually have a support system that they need to keep fed and alive.

[Admin]

As I have told others privately, CEO didn't propose any business arrangements with me; he simply did exactly as he promised and, at no time, misrepresented himself. This is in sharp contrast to the way that you misrepresent the statements of others (especially mine). My comments from the old RWG can be viewed on the link that Billy provided. Based on that, you would be hard pressed to show how my "current attitudes" differ from my previous attitudes. Not to worry, in the absence of hard evidence, one can simply speculate, project and lie.

I can't say that my cameo appearance was a complete waste of time, however. It validated my initial reluctance to post any meaningful content.

>>It validated my initial reluctance to post any meaningful content.<<

Which is most unfortunate - though understandable (to me) given the tenor of the debate.


>>My comments from the old RWG can be viewed on the link that Billy provided.<<

BillyB's post is here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12679.msg250201#msg250201, and the link he provided is here -- http://www.russianwomenforums.com/messages.cfm?threadid=BD6B6848-F207-AE0E-05D9FE2B1D7190D9&page=1.

For those readers who may be unaware of the 'history' (and I suspect there are more than a few) - there used to be an active forum called RWGuide (RWG for short). That forum was sold and sold again, and it now seems adrift in the internet with no direction or participation, yet some of the older topics and posts are retained there, hence, BillyB's link over to it.

I found it interesting to read. Just as BillyB stated, most of the comments in this topic in 2010 are similar, if not identical, to comments made by those same people in 2006. Not much has changed overall.

I'll have some more comments to add later. I am processing a lot of what is being said (written) and it has been a useful topic - for a number of reasons.

More later.

- Dan

[tim 360]

I especially like the 99.9% customer satisfaction rate HRB and its friends crow about.  Thats a hoot.   They link "customer satisfaction" to their low chargeback rate.  Yet, if you look close one see's that the member clicks a box agreeing to NOT do a CC chargeback and that he agrees that services were delivered.  

I don't know about others, but I can't think of one single legitimate store or business I've used where I agree to not do a chargeback if I have a problem with their business.  I can't think of a brick and mortar store or restaurant where I have to agree to that.  Can't think of a single internet store where that is required by the merchant.  Bought a few things on Amazon yesterday--no chargeback agreement.  

Never heard of that "no chargeback" agreement with EM or LL myself.  I wonder.  What businesses use the no chargeback model?  I know Casinos don't.

HRB does not stand up to scrutiny or the light of day.  There are far better alternatives for serious guy.  For a guy who wants soft core chat, .thats another thing and HRB is probably fine and those guys will never complain. 

[Gator]

CEO’s appearance here has generated a spirited discussion.  I am about to disappear for a couple of weeks (a RW is coming to see me on a WOVO trip  :kissing:). So I wanted to summarize my thoughts.

I, perhaps like many others, had considered HRB the same as Anastasia Web.  My opinion was based on Sculpto’s well documented experience and to a smaller degree reports made outside of RWD. 

It walked like  a duck, it quacked like a duck and it crapped like a duck.  Thus, I assumed HRB was the same as AW. 

After participating in this thread, I don’t think that association is fair.  That is based on TomT’s posts, CEO’s posts, the devil's advocates and my own review of the HRB webpages (something that I had never done before).  I find CEO plausible when he explained that much of the bad press was false testimony as part of a smear campaign by competitors. 

If HRB is not AW (which I consider at the bottom of the totem pole), just how far above AW is HRB?

What is good about HRB?  Frankly, I liked the attitude of the CEO.  Can you imagine the AW President participating at RWD and defending his socials, etc.?  CEO claims that he is striving to fix the problems of the past.  I await more news about the specific corrective initiatives he has implemented, and meanwhile it is reasonable to give him the benefit of any doubt.  CEO does need to be more forthright.

Also, I like the concept of HRB's video chats.  I have used Skype video this past year and find this technique far more enlightening (and fun) than the telephone calls of the past.

What is not good about HRB?


-   The high number of aggressive girls soliciting business at login. 
-   The soft porn.
-   The hard sell to make gift shop purchases.
-   The hype (some of it).
-   The implied risk of funneling all correspondence through agency staff.
-   The non-disclosure by most women of their acceptable age range for a man.
-   The opportunity for misconduct by local agencies.
-   The much higher cost for the correspondence-chat phase than other options.

In summary, HRB is better than AW.  Nevertheless, I would not recommend HRB because there are lower cost options with less implied risk. 

Another man may believe that the HRB women justify the added cost.  I will admit that the added cost is small compared to the total cost of courting, marrying, supporting and mentoring a RW.   

[Misha]

I especially like the 99.9% customer satisfaction rate HRB and its friends crow about.  Thats a hoot.    They link "customer satisfaction" to their low chargeback rate.  Yet, if you look close one see's that the member clicks a box agreeing to NOT do a CC chargeback and that he agrees that services were delivered. 

That is certainly sophistry at its finest/worst 

[Jooky]

For the main site, I agree.

For the small local agency, I don't. If the agency lures a westerner to Ukraine, they also profit from additional dates, gifts, taxis, tours, apartment rentals, interpreters and other services. Small agencies do usually have a support system that they need to keep fed and alive.

I'm quoting myself because I wanted to add one more thing. Why I said Ukraine and not the FSU. Of HRB's nearly 14,000 profiles, over 11,000 of them are in Ukraine. Less than 2000 are in Russia.

29 are in Moscow
25 in St. Pete
9 in Novosibirsk

None of the Russian ladies are online.

Anyone care to apply Occam's Razor as to why?

[Jooky]

Also, I like the concept of HRB's video chats.  I have used Skype video this past year and find this technique far more enlightening (and fun) than the telephone calls of the past.

How can you compare it to a Skype video chat? Skype is two way and has voice enabled.

[kievstar]

One thing that would be helpful.  Can TomT post his audit plan and audit procedures he performed.  He does not need to post his findings.  Just what he did. 

All audits start with a planning phase prior to fieldwork.  He should have developed his audit plan including detailed procedures with sample sizes prior to going to Florida.  The fieldwork stage is done on location and important that the auditor is independent of the auditee.  The final stage is independent review by a higher level approver to make sure nothing was missed.

Also, an auditor needs to be certified to do so in this case more forensic auditing and compliance. 

I doubt any of the above happened but the 50 plus audit procedures TomT did would be helpful.  Who knows what he really looked at.  Could have been looking for a RW. 

We really can conclude nothing from his audit except HRM did offer to open his shop up but to an unqualified auditor.

I looked on the HRB site last night - I did not post a profile but you can search by women wearing lingerie.  Interesting search function. 

I think we should have a discussion on what audit procedures should have been done before we make conclusions about HRM.  To be fair to HRM the audit was a joke but that is what happens when you get someone not certified to do an audit. 

You really need to do an audit on cash.  If HRM receives cash / revenue from locations in Ukraine or Russia than there part of the audit scope as well.  So you would need to visit 25% of all the locations sending money plus HQ to come up with an opinion on scam or not. 

[Gator]

How can you compare it to a Skype video chat? Skype is two way and has voice enabled.

I assume this means HRB's video chats involve nothing more than a woman sitting in a chair and communicating with text messages.  Tell me it isn't so!  That's dreadful if true.  That's so lame.  What a joke!

And I assume the woman does not operate the keyboard.  So who knows if the text is her thinking.  BTW, what does a man pay for a live cam observation?

Keep digging Jooky.  You are doing a masterful job of reporting the important facts.

[tim 360]

From the same place (RWG) as Billy's/Dan's links,  13 pages of customers experiences with HRB circa: 2006-07.  Same CEO spouting the SOS.  

http://www.russianwomenforums.com/messages.cfm?messageid=C4499741-F207-AE0E-0439F75BBAFBA649

[tim 360]

I assume this means HRB's video chats involve nothing more than a woman sitting in a chair and communicating with text messages.  Tell me it isn't so!  That's dreadful if true.  That's so lame.  What a joke!

And I assume the woman does not operate the keyboard.  So who knows if the text is her thinking.  BTW, what does a man pay for a live cam observation?

Keep digging Jooky.  You are doing a masterful job of reporting the important facts.

They pay way too much. 

[Jooky]

I assume this means HRB's video chats involve nothing more than a woman sitting in a chair and communicating with text messages.  Tell me it isn't so!  That's dreadful if true.  That's so lame.  What a joke!

And I assume the woman does not operate the keyboard.  So who knows if the text is her thinking.  BTW, what does a man pay for a live cam observation?

That's what it is. If you like, you can just pay to watch as the lady chats with the other men on the line. 

Cost is 2 credits / minute. That's .80 to $1.20 depending on how much you buy up front.

They're covered though. It never says 'chat with her live'. It says 'see her live'.
They don't provide video chat. They provide a text chat / live video streaming combination.

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As an additional security feature for our male members, HotRussianBrides.com offers a one-way video steaming/chat combination that ensures that the person you are chatting with is a real woman.

Also, whereas mainstream Websites expect other members to police the site for potential issues, we take the initiative to monitor communications and filter potential scammers or inappropriate behavior on the site.

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