Review/Critique/Roast of HRB/RLM

[Faux Pas]

I do too FP, but let's keep this more on the side of reality without having to drown it out into some idealistic smokescreen. Who exactly are we talking about?
 
If an average middle-aged Lothario whose social extent is turn his computer on to get his jollies off and have aspirations of getting a hot young dev in her early 20s, who also happen to send pictures with huge tits, and profess enduring love and lust for as long as his Visa will allow him to, he may be clueless to what *lays* in front of him, but if the first sight of the obvious isn't enough for him to understand something's just NOT right, then what makes you *think* what you have to tell him is ever going to change his mind?
 
Methinks in this side of the business, it is far likely there are MORE dirty old men ringing the registers than there are Honest Dans ringing the wedding bells. IMHO.

Fair enough. While I have seemingly been a magnet for a number of guys over the years, some older and some younger to seek out for advice, I can really only totally relate to the position I personally experienced. That's the perspective I have personal experience with.



When I started, I was middle aged, early 40's and after being single for almost 15 years and raising the last child to the point of college, I was looking for something better than I was finding locally. My success locally was impressive for the area. I wasn't lonely in the physical sense at all. After contact with a RW scammer on an American dating site, being a man of means and capable of expanding my horizons I decided to explore international dating. I joined a number of agencies and received my schooling from what is now Global Ladies. In that process I learned how easy it is to succumb. Many IMHO men, just want to learn how and where to contact and fall into the traps set by these unscrupulous agencies. These are the guys I refer to, the ones "like me" 


I have no pity for the ones seeking their sexual jollies and choking their chicken on the net or otherwise fantasizing and using the IMBs to fulfill that need, regardless of their age. Those guys deserve everything they get. Your honest everyday Joe Sixpack that maybe isn't familiar with this process yet has been through the local meat grinder that is local dating. It is him who is seeking good information and gets drawn into that vacuum because the perception the IMBs create is, that is where you get the info.


There have been a lot of otherwise bright sharp men get vested in those agencies and their intelligence turns to mush, they get jaded, bitter, broke and the blame the entire MOB for what in essence is they're own stupidity and the greed of the IMBs. It doesn't 'have' to be that way.

[GQBlues]

FP-
 
…and likewise over the years, I haven’t seen you do anything but advise the men you personally knew, or men you’ve seen graced upon these halls asking questions, nothing but what you knew of yourself to be the right way of doing things. I’ve yet to see you tell anyone, more specifically, recommend to anyone, services or agencies the likes of HRB, AWs, etc...If you think about it, I don’t believe anyone really has, and no one really should.

There was one thread that I vaguely remember where a guy came here asking the legitimacy of Anastasia. In almost complete unison, everyone told the person not to even try. Countless times RWD men generally advise men to stay away from the likes, or to generally stay away from pay-per-letter services…This, despite ‘some’ of the men, even active here on RWD, actually did in fact met their SOs on the Anastasia/HRBs.

Conversely, let’s take EM for an example. The general membership here readily recommends Elena’s Models. Personally, I know for a fact NOT ALL of the women listed in that service is in fact, sincere. My proof of this will be completely anecdotal. Additionally, not too long ago people wanted to skin me alive telling me I’m being silly to believe women in this and other IMB sites like it are all in it sincerely. Folks were loudly railing against me, even from women themselves who signed on to EM, citing that simply because a woman signed on an IMBthat it didn’t necessarily mean all the women are/were sincere and honest in their intent when they signed up. One can argue but that really isn’t a scam, yeah, but then I would argue, what is?

HRB is what it is. I would no more recommend it as a good way to meet someone for marriage any more than you would. BUT, it doesn’t mean no one ever got married, or found success through HRB. I would be a liar if I ever told anyone that because it isn’t true…HRB is more than ‘just surviving’ not because of Honest Joes, but rather because of the Dirty ol’ Harrys....Now, how many men do you know, through the years they've spent searching for honest Olga, etc..in FSU that DID NOT, at least not even once, tasted ol' Dirty Harrys' sexy Svetlana's delights on the side? Honest Joe, I'm sure, would like to know...

Bottom line, and I hate to make this silly comparison, if anyone aspired to find someone to marry, what’s the point of searching in a strip joint? If an average middle-aged honest Joe didn’t know doodley squat about HRB, but found it and darn right got a full-mouthed taste of what’s in it the first day – cam invites, EOIs,  etc…from nothing less but deliciously barely-clothed, very young PYTs, man…I say, Honest Joe just needs to be a little bit more honest with Joe, no?

To me, FP...the fault lies not in services like HRB, AW, Global Ladies, or even, ermmm, EM, etc...the fault lies on the other side. Certain things in life can't be anymore obvious if it hits them in the face.

[BoozeBaron]

Wow - Seems I woke the monster

Just wanna say, I appreciate Tom's diplomatic response - as well as everyone else's insight... Very adult and calm debate (er, exchange of ideas?) - Either way, glad to see it here...

I think we all agree HRB is not the ideal - I'd really like the chance to have that same visit - heck I'd pay my own way   Just too much proof out there that shows they're doing little to crack down on their 'agreements' with their agencies... and would relish the chance to discuss this with their CEO.

Peace -

BB

[Faux Pas]

GQ,


I do not disagree with anything you stated. I do think you may have went to an extreme or two, to make your point. I have no doubt there are many sincere women on the AWEBs and HRBs of the world. Most likely in much larger numbers than the few who make a tidy living bilking, the lonely and the horny goats. The young, sexy and willing women probably do very well.


There's bad ones on EMs but, I've not seen any evidence that EMs encourages or profits from such behavior. The same cannot be said for HRB, Loveme and the like agencies. It could also be said that EM isn't an agency.


Those agencies (HRB, AWEB and the like) are a business and protect their revenue streams. I get that. From what I've seen, the unsuspecting honest Joe has no choice (they believe) but to try and navigate through that bottleneck these agencies create, if they wish to meet and become acquainted with these foreign women. It is in that bottleneck that the fleecing begins. Some guys manage to do it. Obviously they need success stories to feed the monster and keep the illusion.


The basic business model of these places has been discussed to death on these boards. It is like playing a rigged game of poker or hopefully being the one who wins a stuffed animal at the carnival, nobody wins unless someone is watching and only then if you paid enough money.


I'm not idealistic, but perhaps a bit too principled maybe even moralistic to accept that it's okay to  rip a guy off with false promises. I'm not looking to save these guys from anything. I do find these greedy agencies disgusting and I say so. That's all 


Tom seems like a nice enough guy. I find myself agreeing with him most of the time. I can't do that here. Tom's lack of condemnation of HRB is easily construed by the unsuspecting honest Joe's as praise. Is it a coincidence that he accepted a free trip from CEO? Not to me it isn't.

[Admin]

GQ,


I do not disagree with anything you stated. I do think you may have went to an extreme or two, to make your point. I have no doubt there are many sincere women on the AWEBs and HRBs of the world. Most likely in much larger numbers than the few who make a tidy living bilking, the lonely and the horny goats. The young, sexy and willing women probably do very well.


There's bad ones on EMs but, I've not seen any evidence that EMs encourages or profits from such behavior. The same cannot be said for HRB, Loveme and the like agencies. It could also be said that EM isn't an agency.


Those agencies (HRB, AWEB and the like) are a business and protect their revenue streams. I get that. From what I've seen, the unsuspecting honest Joe has no choice (they believe) but to try and navigate through that bottleneck these agencies create, if they wish to meet and become acquainted with these foreign women. It is in that bottleneck that the fleecing begins. Some guys manage to do it. Obviously they need success stories to feed the monster and keep the illusion.


The basic business model of these places has been discussed to death on these boards. It is like playing a rigged game of poker or hopefully being the one who wins a stuffed animal at the carnival, nobody wins unless someone is watching and only then if you paid enough money.


I'm not idealistic, but perhaps a bit too principled maybe even moralistic to accept that it's okay to  rip a guy off with false promises. I'm not looking to save these guys from anything. I do find these greedy agencies disgusting and I say so. That's all 


Tom seems like a nice enough guy. I find myself agreeing with him most of the time. I can't do that here. Tom's lack of condemnation of HRB is easily construed by the unsuspecting honest Joe's as praise. Is it a coincidence that he accepted a free trip from CEO? Not to me it isn't.

FP,

It is a little much to claim that a lack of condemnation is equivalent to praise. It is also a stretch to conclude that Tom's integrity is suspect due to his acceptance of a free trip and absent any tangible evidence to suggest he is anything less than honest with his comments.

None of this is to suggest that other's opinions are any less valid - just that to subvert credibility on the strength of those arguments seems a bit weak IMO.

- Dan

[Jumper]

Dan,
 I do agree that *no condemnation * wouldn't  equate to praise, nor Toms trip there, paid or not,  challenge his personal integrity.
 
 I would point out TomT also did similar  though,  in stating

Perhaps one of HRB's detractors should have gone in my stead. Then he could have come back and aired his stubborn preconceptions. In the end, if someone agrees with me, I am very astute. If not, I am a shill. C'est la vie!

This seems a bit of a premptive statement to disqualify any others possible critisisms?
 on what grounds?
 
 The fact  never seems to occur to TomT ,that the opinions stated are not all preconceived, that HRB and agencies with like business models where  given by some members a fair chance? and perhaps intentionally investigated for curiousity..
Their findings , different from Toms, are based on actual experiernces ,both with HRB/RML proper as a client (that he has never been)and with the affiliates and the *cough* workers in the FSU with perhaps far more first hand  knowledge of such, than he seems to have.
 
Absolutely his opinion is welcomed as any others?
 
but no, i dont  think its as valid as anyone thats been an actual client.
 Or perhaps had far more exposer in the FSU to the gritty details of how the actual affilates work,  the business model itself, who is employed, etc.
(as example: it is NOT only teenagers, and lets give the affiliates some credit in knowing their busines better than most here, and how to easily  expand to other market areas including those seriously interested in an actual relationship with  30 and 40yo women)
 
That would be like me saying I find someones opinion  that was invited to inspect a dive shop ,for one  day,
  to be as valid as a dive instuctors who worked in the dive ship for a  year?
 
 I also don't buy that cavet emptor covers all,
 in the context of the forum.
 I dint think the forum was here to promote GQ's Darwinism where only the strongest survive?
let the sharks feed where they will..if a guys silly enough to not see the obviuos fins in the water , or thinks they are dolphins,, well then..he wasnt *worthy* anyway.
(whatever that small percent may be of the clientle)
 
Yes I do agree with the earlier point that snake oil salemen have every right to sell elixer.
 
However some one paid to go have a look at the elixers  factory , and seeing that its made with nothing that can actually harm you , doesnt mean its *healthy* as advertised.
 Nor does it mean within the context of a health forum ,
 the guy visiting the plant ,or seemingly defending its right to sell the  product, isnt going to get called out about its lack of truth in advertising, regardless legal rights or fine print disclaimers?
 
it just seems a natural reaction in the context of this forum to me..
since few of us would be here if it wasnt due in part to some concern for other people in this venture?
 
I do believe men looking into such agencies and business models are  warned here,
so it's a fly into an elephant.

[Faux Pas]

AJ,


That was excellent and I couldn't have explained it better myself.


Dan,
I'm not impugning Tom's opinion or character whatsoever. I think he believes what he believes. His credibility is intact as far as I am concerned. He disclosed that the tab on his trip was picked up completely by CEO. I don't fault him for taking advantage of it. However, to give Tom a pass on objectivity concerning the operations and intentions of HRB? That dog don't hunt IMO


Tom and his wife made the trip to Florida on CEO's dime. As Andrew explained it, they went to audit HRB's operations. Do you not see this act of accepting and making the trip, tainting Tom's and Andrew's  opinion of HRB? Audit is a mighty big stretch.


Tom while being hesitant to claim HRB as the second coming has done nothing to admit the negatives choosing instead to blame the suckers, caveat emptor. No Dan, IMHO HRB and the like don't get off so easy.


After the earlier ballyhoo and the rumors, I paid $50 bucks just to confirm or deny those rumors. I confirmed them, enough information for me anyway. I'm convinced whats happening at HRB and it doesn't jive with Tom's view.

[Admin]

As I was composing my earlier reply I almost made reference to the point about Social Darwinism and then realized there is a tightrope we walk here at RWD as we follow the tenet stated in the RWD Vision to encourage our members to exercise individual choice in all they do whether it is the choice to take an AFA tour or travel using youth hostels and hitch-hiking (as one extreme example). In promoting individual choice, it makes little sense for RWD to then take on the position that we intend to save someone from themselves through condemnation of one possible (and viable) option.

While we have seen numerous members complain of A-web and their practices, we have also seen several members who were wed through connections found at A-web. It was not so long ago that we made the effort to isolate the scamming practice at A-web, and except for some serious questions that were raised - no scam was exposed.

I remain in the camp that until and unless a scam is exposed, it is OTT to attach the 'scam' label to that agency. Perhaps the reticence is the same one that has prevented me from considering use of RWD as any kind of blacklist site. I just do not see the equity in that practice from this venue.

- Dan

[Jumper]

Dan-
 Like Aweb the literal scam definition doesnt fit most of the agencies , with all their appropriate disclaimers in place.
 
So we generally warn guys here of certain  business models being prone to manipulation..?
Yes ,that seems fair enough, and inclusive enough overall?and I see your point.
 
I wasn't trying to stir this up again,
and will admit I took exception to the way Tom worded  his post. Since it off-hand negated others viewpionts as merely preconceived, and therefor those views must be lacking depth or substance by implication right?
It simply seemed an old debating trick, not him restating his findings,or any new info.
 
 
stubborn? unfortunanetly yes 
i dont feel any visit to Fla would ever make me somehow better informed , than my time as a client has.
 
preconceived , no.
 A fair shake was absolutely given,
and for Tom to infer otherwise is the same as anyone questioning his bias from a paid trip?
Since  I've never lamented any losses there, and certainly paid my own tab to gain my first hand observations.
 

[remiel6]

Oh what a loaded subject for me. This is one I am a little tired of reading about. I would not recommend HRB or Aweb to anyone. As someone above said there are too many sharks in the water, but I think there is a misconception.


HRB does not own or contact or place the girls that appear on their site. They sign Contracts with seperate independent agencies in each city that meet the girls. I believe the computer systems at the agency have to be up to par. The local agency makes money on taking a share of translating letters and video chat. I've never personally seen a girl who got paid to chat, although I did not meet every girl, in fact really only one I do believe the agencies send introduction letters out from the girls, and some of the agencies probably send the follow up letters as well. They do this to get the guy to pay for services. I am not fond of this kind of deception, but anyone who reads the info on the site before they sign up is well informed about what kind of business it is. And you all should be suspicious when 30 - 50 girls a day write you. I mean I'm not ugly, but I'm not that hot either.


It is important to mention the structure because if you fly over to meet said girl your experience in city one, will be vastly different than your experience in city two. Your experience will depend on who owns that particular branch.


They have high quality photos because they pay professional photographers to come and photograph the girls. I don't know if girls pay for these photo's. I know my wife did not. You can tell all the photo's are professional.


I won't comment on the site itself it speaks for itself. I will say this though if you go to meet one of thier girls.


1. Avoid certain cities
2. Always pay your own translator that you hired
3. Stay in an apartment that you select and hire yourself.
4. have your translator, or heck a google search select where to go to eat and what to do
5. have your translator call the cab herself.


all the above will save you needless money. Do not buy expensive presents for girls you just met. I'm not saying being cheap, but she needs to be interested in you not in the things you buy for her. If you don't understand this difference do not go.


I can't say too much bad about HRB because ultimately I met my wife there. Although, that may have more to do with my wife and her particular agency than it did with HRB.
Her branch of the agency was always wonderful to me. They found me cheap rooms to stay in. Never overcharged me for anything. Helped arrange parties and engagement celebrations without too much expense. They were great people and deserve commendation.

[Gator]

I can't say too much bad about HRB because ultimately I met my wife there. Although, that may have more to do with my wife and her particular agency than it did with HRB.

Remiel, thanks for posting a real case of HRB success.  Your case is evidence of what TomT was stating.
 
Your posts in the past have revealed you to be a reasonable man, and I assume your search for a wife was also reasonable (e. g., all FSU wives are outside their husbands' league, yet some men stretch way too far such as a huge age gap).   Can you please add any more generic information (e. g., did your search focus immediately on your wife or write many women,   was your correspondence period long or short,  did you meet only one HRB woman, etc.)?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Gator]

There are different paths for finding a FSU wife. 
 
-   Some paths have fewer obstacles, yet none are guaranteed to be free of mines. 
 
-   Some paths cost much more, yet the cost of even an expensive search is much less than the total cost of the whole venture to include her adjustment to a new life.   
 
-  The FSUW situation is changing, and paths that have been successful in the past may no be the most viable paths in the future. 
 
Does thast mean I support HRB?  No!  You can count me as in Jumper's and FP's camp.  I would not recommend HRB because I believe  there are agency choices which cost less and have a better history of success (even though past history is no guarantee of  future performance). 
 
 
Regardless of the path chosen, I trust we will all agree that an unreasonable man is more likely to wreck along the way (and a reasonable man less likely).

[remiel6]

Thank you for calling me reasonable.


as far as generic information I started with one premise and that was that I didn't know anything. I say this because I did not want to operate from a point of view of fear. To me deciding that I will only write women who are fluent in english, or women between 30 - 39 (Or whatever) is a limitation. Relationships have to be magical to me. There are no "rules" only guidelines, but if I knew anything I would not have waited until I was 37 to be married the first time. I wanted to enjoy the full spectrum of the experience.
The moment you narrow down fields, ie to avoid more work, you are also limiting the chances for something strange and magical to happen. Life is not a cook book. It's a mess and I was willing to accept the increased risk of Scammers, for the increased risk of success.


that being said everyone has to know themselves. Do not be afraid to go outside your comfort zone.


I had a long correspondence. We wrote everyday for five months before we met. We only used the video chat once.  I am a huge proponent of letter writing. If a girl does not like to write letters it is a red flag to me.


It is worth noting we went outside of HRB to meet. My wife sent me an ecrypted email with another email address because she was leaving the site because she was moving. So after five months we started to chat "outside" the system. So it only took five months and 400 pages of letters to find out her last name lol. Not the swiftest progress.


I do however agree that ultimately you have to take the plunge and get on an airplane. It is only then you will know if its going to work or not. I would personally wait until I had written them for a few months before going and it never hurts to have a back up plan.

[Muzh]

HRB does not own or contact or place the girls that appear on their site. They sign Contracts with seperate independent agencies in each city that meet the girls. I believe the computer systems at the agency have to be up to par. The local agency makes money on taking a share of translating letters and video chat. I've never personally seen a girl who got paid to chat, although I did not meet every girl, in fact really only one I do believe the agencies send introduction letters out from the girls, and some of the agencies probably send the follow up letters as well. They do this to get the guy to pay for services. I am not fond of this kind of deception, but anyone who reads the info on the site before they sign up is well informed about what kind of business it is. And you all should be suspicious when 30 - 50 girls a day write you. I mean I'm not ugly, but I'm not that hot either.

I'd like to offer my two cents on this argument.
 
I just spent two weeks in Kharkiv for very different purposes as compared to many of the TRs posted here. I did mention I met with some friends and made new ones who have no inclination with IMBs nor care about the issue and are more into internal politics. The following was said to me and not as a joke. Officially, the city of Kharkiv has reach the status of being 100% corrupt. All they need to do is have a massive celebration in Independence Sq and have the population show up with those #1 foam hands and start chanting "we're number 1." Kharkiv is NOT alone on this quest. I guess you can credit the present President to encourage this kind of mentality.
 
Now, with this level of corruption what should a person from the west expect from these agencies that subcontract with the likes of HRB? Notice that I have not said the women are into this corrupt system. Some are and some don't.
 
If I would offer any advice to a newbie, I would direct them to personalized services. There are a number of people in these fora that do that. Not going to mention names so the thread is not hijacked.
 
This endeavor is very different from the days I started. It is a real jungle out there today and, from my perspective, the newbies are just fresh meat. Most of these guys are going to need a lot of luck to be successful. OR be a little more methodical to minimize their risks. Emailing or skyping two or three times and then travelling to meet "them," IMNSHO, is asking for heartbreak. I hear people claiming that the risk of prolonged "dating" is that when met face-to-face there is no chemistry. If you haven't been able to find some chemistry during emailing or skyping, you better get to the next and try again. But, if your (man AND woman) idea of chemistry is more visual than soul-to-soul then it's a roll of the dice.
 
I'll offer my example; there were women more physically beautiful than my wife. My wife had better choices, physically speaking, than me. I saw a picture of the guy she dumped for me. We concentrated on what was important to us; finding a soulmate. I'll tell you this, after 12 years together and a few wrinkles, she looks prettier and prettier by the day.
 
Just determine what do you want. Then formulate a plan to reach that goal.

[Muzh]

I had a long correspondence. We wrote everyday for five months before we met. We only used the video chat once.  I am a huge proponent of letter writing. If a girl does not like to write letters it is a red flag to me.


It is worth noting we went outside of HRB to meet. My wife sent me an ecrypted email with another email address because she was leaving the site because she was moving. So after five months we started to chat "outside" the system. So it only took five months and 400 pages of letters to find out her last name lol. Not the swiftest progress.

Thank you for making my point.

[remiel6]

Your welcome. I basically agree with you.

[Faux Pas]

All good points. An old thread getting bumped and moving in a positive direction (IMO)


Dan, I haven't referred to HRB or the pay to cam sites/ by the letter places as scams although, I may feel that way. I have many times referred to them as shams. They are two different means IMO of reaching the same ends. I don't have it in for these joints in fact, I don't even think of them unless it's on the forum being discussed.


remiel6 is a success story of which I am confident there are many. However, if we explore the numbers by just those we come in contact with, it doesn't fare well for these type agencies.


I'm with Gator, guys entering this race now have to move the odds to their favor at every available opportunity. Minimize the risk and maximize the chances of success. These places do not seem to help a guy do that.

[remiel6]

I myself would not even really recommend the site so take that wisdom for what it is worth. The method can work, but I advise bringing along some good mine land mine detection equipment as well.

[TomT]

I would point out TomT also did similar  though,  in stating 
This seems a bit of a premptive statement to disqualify any others possible critisisms?
 on what grounds?
 
 The fact  never seems to occur to TomT...

Lotsa facts occur to TomT. One of them is that, given enough interaction with individuals, their responses become predictable. Hence, when I begin to tire of a particular line of unproductive discussion, I sometimes throw out a preemptive comment as a slightly more polite variant of STFU.
 
The key to understanding me is empathy. I have been dealing with forum personae for so long that I analyze the person in parallel with the situation as a reflex. Please give me your analysis of Jeff and Yulia's communication. (I won't lead the witness.)

[GQBlues]

There comes a point and time when we no longer discuss and determine what is the best of the best, but rather, what's the least of all evil, to me it suggests we've reached the point of Darwinism. IMHO.
 

[TomT]

... I am simply resigned to believe it has in fact reached the point of Darwinism. IMHO.

Yes, it has. It many cases, we are discussing fiddling whilst Rome is in flames. Recently, a fellow arrived elsewhere and announced that the dysfunction in Russia has forced the women to be the sweet beauties that they are. Where does one begin?
   

[BillyB]

4)  a service provider is not required to do whatever clients imagine that they should do; it is only required to do what is contractually stipulated. That's the law, whether anybody likes it or not.

5) HRB's business model is not my cup of tea. Nonetheless, I found many sincere women on their database who would probably make some lucky guy very happy. From what I've seen, most men bring failure upon themselves and then try to shift the blame elsewhere. That approach is rarely curative.

Tom, when guys,  including the ones without fantasies, sign up for for those big agencies they are bombarded by women who send them letters. I once made free profiles at some of those sites to better understand them. Out of 300 emails I get from model quality women, average looking women, young and old. How do I tell the sincere women from the insincere? A guy has all kinds of temptation to pay to respond to one or more of the ladies. Thinking he's going to increase his odds by responding an older average looking woman who wrote him first is as much fantasy as responding to a young model quality RW.

Some talk about those men who fantasize but do you all fully understand reality? Have you ever used a free site? In the real world RW rarely contact a man first. Maybe 1 out of 1000 women would contact me first. That's reality but HRB/RLM feeds a fantasy when many of their customers are expecting reality.

Truth is all the emails from women that initiate contact with me are problaby sent by the employees of the agency. HRB/RLM don't know their customers, rich or poor, wise or stupid but all customers are to receive the same treatment.

Most guys coming off a divorce after 20 years of marriage forget about how to interact with women and that they don't understand the fact the overwhelming majority of women won't contact them first. Heck, they don't even have experience with internet dating since the internet didn't exist the last time they dated. I don't blame them and I don't blame RW sites entirely. American dating sites even sucker men into paying to read a letter from a good looking woman sent by the company after they initially created a free profile.

Tom, you tend to blame the customers who want to fulfill fantasies but ALL customers using HRB/RLM mail or video chat system will be bombarded by the young ladies wanting to communicate with them and burn up their money. Few or no men have signed up for fantasy yet they are getting it forced down their throats.

Over the years reading at a RW forum one can read a few stories about a guy's wife, gf, or RW friend who's been offered a job or took a job from a big bad agency to play men. It's always possible one or two guys making up stories but there are too many stories to discount them all.

I'm not so quick to blame the customer. I'm sure there are a lot of uneducated and unrefined people shopping at Walmart but does that give Walmart the right to bait and switch and play games with the products they sell and blame it on stupid customers?

Would any of you shop at a place that played games with you? Kudos to those who found a decent woman at HRB/RLM but man enough to say something wasn't right and you had games played with you. If anybody payed ANY agency to communicate with one or more women that have no interest or knowledge of communications with you, then you were duped. You were robbed.

If a guy wants to chat with a fantasy girl, there are companies that provide that service. There will be no mistake in what they are offering. HRB/RLM doesn't state anywhere they are providing fantasy services so they should eliminate the girls who are paid to communicate with men they have no sincere interest in. Some girls aren't paid but the feeder agencies promise them to get the first dates with the customers who come to town which in turn they will get a chance to take their dates shopping or get invited by love starved men to travel to exotic places. Because some girls have special agreements with agencies to get first crack at the men, they will also greatly improve their chances to marry. Aggressive insincere women do a better job attracting men compared to the good girls who who are busy working real jobs and responsible to come home and take care of family instead of heading to the agency chatting with hundreds of men from 10 PM to 4 AM in the morning.

First thing one has to do is to get it out of your head that the FSU works the same way it does in America or Europe. Consumers are not protected in the FSU as well as over here and make no mistake, if you sign up with an agency featuring RW, you are doing business with a RW agency and you are doing business FSU style. Crap happens on a much larger scale than what you're accustomed to. I'm not going to say all agencies are bad but the big ones with hundreds of feeder agencies are going to be tainted.

At large agencies a large majority of pictures of women are in bikinis, photoshopped, and studio quality which all makes the women more attractive some guys will take the gamble. When a guy signs up at a big agency, no matter how smart he is, he won't be able to tell the real from the unreal.

Tom, your investigation of HRB/RLM should have happened in the FSU at random feeder agencies of your choosing. not in America at the headquarters of CEO's choosing. Maybe CEO will make an offer to send you there? He's not stupid. He knows what goes on. He gets more complaints than what we read on the forum.
 
 

[Misha]

My wife sent me an ecrypted email with another email address because she was leaving the site because she was moving.

What do you mean by encrypted email? Do you mean that she found a way to hide her real email address in the body of an message sent via the agency/HRB?

[Admin]

A few points to add/clarify:

@FP. My insertion into the topic came from what I read as a call for condemnation. In fact, that was the term used. Since that is a VERY strong term, it inspired me to respond. I was explicitly directing my comments to what I see as a lack of evidence sufficient to condemn.

The 2nd point I made was to encourage everyone to accept others at face value. TomT is a guy who has been active on these fora for as long as anyone. He also has some first-hand experience that most do not. Unless a person is prepared to call him a liar, it should be taken on the face that he is offering his sincere opinion - even if that opinion flies in the face of the majority, as it seems so in this instance.

I would further point out that Tom is almost always defending against allegations from those who do not possess his same level of first-hand experience. Admittedly, some may have a different kind of first-hand experience - that of a user of the site. To the extent those first-hand experiences differ - there is fodder for debate (REASONED debate - not merely shouting over one another). In all the time I have seen these exchanges, they almost invariably devolve into someone attacking Tom over a *perceived* issue - and not one that is honestly recounted from first-hand experience.

This is not unlike the reaction I receive when I tell people that I've had personal contact with the owners of HRB and A-web (and CuteOnly and Mordinson and AFA and . . . ). To the extent that folks have formed an opinion (and almost all have), they react and it is usually negative. The internet is rife with criticisms of HRB and A-web (and others) - AND - there are certainly problems with the business model as remiel6 points out (and has been discussed here in the past) - but the internet is not a court and does not possess the ability to impart a just outcome. [Some will question the Court's ability to impart a just outcome vice the Casey Anthony case currently in the news - but that is  for these purposes]

@Jumper. The above represents my interpretation of Tom's "preemptive" comment upthread. Quite possibly because I have been witness to many of the attacks exchanges he has been drawn into on this subject, my interpretation of the comment was a bit different than an entirely objective party.

@Gator. As posted above, mine was not intended to seek recommendation. Instead, I was reacting to the call for condemnation. It is the same reaction I have whenever we have someone coming to RWD to label someone else a scammer - or declare an IMB a scam agency. It is certainly fair game to present opinions and first-hand experience - and especially to inform others of the potholes that potentially await them. At the same time, we make a point of vetting all claims that a lady is a scammer and insist the declarant offer up something tangible in evidence. The same is applicable here - at least, IMO.

@GQ. I confess to feeling tempted to declare some of this as the manifestation of Social Darwinism. At the same time, Jumper is correct that one of RWD's greatest values to its members is to enable them to learn from others that have gone before them. My sense is that anyone who spends the time to read RWD will draw the impression that our members strongly discourage the use of certain agency business models.

I am reminded of the fact we have published some basic tools designed to give guidance in such matters. Look to the Footer Menu and one will find an "Agency Score Card" which, if followed, would likely help folks avoid some/many of the issues addressed in this topic. We also publish the "Agency Code of Ethics" as another guide in what to look for in an agency - and by extension, what to avoid.

I hope this clarifies my intent behind my earlier posts.

I *do* have some semi-related observations about the "BlackList" sites and what has become of the one most notable - but that is for a different topic.

- Dan

[Jumper]

Lotsa facts occur to TomT. One of them is that, given enough interaction with individuals, their responses become predictable. Hence, when I begin to tire of a particular line of unproductive discussion, I sometimes throw out a preemptive comment as a slightly more polite variant of STFU.
 
The key to understanding me is empathy. I have been dealing with forum personae for so long that I analyze the person in parallel with the situation as a reflex. Please give me your analysis of Jeff and Yulia's communication. (I won't lead the witness.)

Tom T,
 While you have been around for a long time , and perhaps hold a position at times that many will debate..
I do have empathy with you having limited patience.

that said:
 any polite way of saying ST#@U ,
is still saying  you simple don't want to hear any other  viewpoint, as you've heard it all before. 
It was indeed preemptive and dismissive.
That is about as unproductive as we can get on a forum built on discussion.

Safe bet Tom is that  I remember the same older message boards and was around since brahma or st johns lists, my patience perhaps on this subject isn't any greater than your own? So perhaps you'll be so generous as to extend the same empathy that you expect  in return?

Why ask me specifically about jeff's case that you read ?
Is it somehow relevant to warning members of a poor business model many feel
they should avoid??

You already stated Mr Coffee should have been lucid enough to recognize the canned letters? What if as you implied, and by actions .. he simply isn't?
Then his complaint isn't valid?Many firms faced with what appeared  a client not capable of routine obvious choices( your implication) would simply give a refund!   
Seems a diversion from the intent here to me, unless  you are looking at it from  a purely legal standpoint? 
Pretty sure we all already conceded that snake oil salesmen have every right to sell elixer ? 


Since I was a client,  and have extended first hand experience to comment from,
 I  hardly need to comment on jeffs experience or compliant?

I do feel as if  you expect some sort of apology for pointing out  that waters wet,
 when i have first hand long term experience that it is.
I'm not even slightly disgruntled about it ,so don't make that assumption, I like a good swim!!

The point is: if men are asking here, I'd like them to know its likely going to be wet.to be prepared accordingly!
and that  seems more than accomplished.

Not even sure why you jumped back in ,that motivation puzzles me .

but  if you want to quite accurately  point out that certain businesses can make water cold enough to be dry, at least temporarily ,and as long as  the right conditions prevail, so be it.
Overall I find that accurate, but in context here,also a bit misleading.


Dan-
Tom has been around awhile ,yes I'm sure he is reporting exactly what he saw.

He is also returning to a long dead thread.. actively engaging in it ,
 with polite preemptive variants of  *just shut up* , LOL

 Seems like he doesn't mind wading right back in? So his lamenting his own lack of patience for the topic ,is odd.

I do completely understand our experiences vary,
 his is visiting the home office, mine is direct contact with those employed by affiliates.

Face value should be reciprocal.