Odessa and AnastasiaDate. A Risky Proposition.

[Shostakovich]

     Well Neo, I really liked your methods up until now.  I really think you should have listened to the Sith Master and not spent large amounts of money until you had at least consummated the relationship.  I always think that it is better to start 2/3's of the way down from what I would consider the top, or maybe in the middle.  That way if you really like her and you feel that she likes you for your looks and personality and not your pocketbook, than you can proceed to become more generous as you become closer to her.  It seems to me that you paid for a whole lot of fireworks, without actually getting any fireworks, so to speak.  Yet I do realize that you have more experience than most men do in attempting this endeavor, and that we each have to forge the path or journey the way we see fit.  So I look forward to your next installment...

Nah, he did the right thing.  I think he went a little cheap on the bag, myself.  A good Fendi or Prada bag'll set you back $1K-2K, and if she is wearing La Perla underneath my guess is that she's not going to be happy about carrying a Michael Kors or Tori Burch bag.  Certainly not.  As for consummation, no again.  The idea that consummation is earned or must have a certain place in the timing of things is absolute rubbish.  This thinking is for men who view M/F relationships as being primarily about control or for those for whom that 1st-4th base mentality, from high school, still lingers.  I am all for playing the cards carefully as one begins but eventually one must open one's heart and trust.  Abandoning, or at least elevating the animal is part of what a deep relationship is about, and you know most people are not much more than animals who talk.  In fact, if you want to seriously impress a woman, this is done not by throwing coins on the table but showing you are willing to put sex on an emotional, traditionally familial basis -- and delay the gratification.  Those Masters btw -- it's advice for plebeians that they offer.

[Shostakovich]

And P.S. - since our Neo is a great one for Tolkien: To win an Arwen you must be like an Aragon -- don't take the ring.

[SFandEE]

and if she is wearing La Perla underneath

Has this been established/discussed?  A young 20 something who is not a professional model wearing La Perla--of her own purchase or as a gift?

[Rubicon]

Nah, he did the right thing.  I think he went a little cheap on the bag, myself.  A good Fendi or Prada bag'll set you back $1K-2K, and if she is wearing La Perla underneath my guess is that she's not going to be happy about carrying a Michael Kors or Tori Burch bag.  Certainly not.  As for consummation, no again.  The idea that consummation is earned or must have a certain place in the timing of things is absolute rubbish.  This thinking is for men who view M/F relationships as being primarily about control or for those for whom that 1st-4th base mentality, from high school, still lingers.  I am all for playing the cards carefully as one begins but eventually one must open one's heart and trust.  Abandoning, or at least elevating the animal is part of what a deep relationship is about, and you know most people are not much more than animals who talk.  In fact, if you want to seriously impress a woman, this is done not by throwing coins on the table but showing you are willing to put sex on an emotional, traditionally familial basis -- and delay the gratification.  Those Masters btw -- it's advice for plebeians that they offer.

Shosty,

It sounds to me like if you get married, the preacher better say "in better times and in best times" not the traditional "in good times and in bad times", because the type of woman who needs such expensive gifts is going to leave lickety split, should you ever encounter bad times, heaven forbid.  As for delaying gratification, I am not a Bhudist monk, nor do I want to date one.  I like a woman who is just as happy with my company in a cheap sandwich shop as she is in an expensive restaurant which requires you to dress up.  A woman who can get down and dirty in the vegetable patch, or one that can clean up real nice and look great in a dress.  "Relationships as being primarily about control"??  No, that's not it at all.  A relationship which is based on mutual attraction and mutual respect, is not going to require such expensive gifts, which smacks of paying for a relationship.

[tim 360]

I think Neo has HIS own way of doing things and various rules etc really don't motivate him.  With girl # 2 he is just having a good time on vacation and seeing how things may go.  He rewarded himself with a pricey vacation champagne lunch and gave the girl a pricey gift and now he sees how things evolve or devolve.  Either way I don't think he cares--it's more of an experiment for a guy with a lot of money and time on vacation and he is quickly turning the tables.  He will quickly find out how "greedy" this girl is by cutting to the chase in one quick date.  



I'm sure she will not foregt her first date with Neo.  Now what does she do since she sure didn't turn down the expensive gift.  

[Shostakovich]

Shosty,

... I am not a Buddhist monk ...  

How come?

[neo]

Guys,

thanks for your interesting and diverse perspectives, tim has hit the nail on the head, for those under the illusion that I am a guy that gives much credence to traditional date lore my account should clearly dispel such misconceptions.

We all have I believe our own moral compass, sense of right or wrong and what we think is the right way or wrong way for another person to behave to us. For some a person's relationship to them must be based on feelings alone with no talk or sordid coin. for others merely the pleasure if mutual gratification is reward enough (Mr Bond, calling). We will all choose the suit that fits us best.

Whats interesting is I have just taken a walk down Deribaskaya, I'm sure there is a girl here for everyone, i saw sweet family girls out with their parents, and high rollin biatches clad in skintight D&G denim glued to their iphone wearing 3K of italian wardrobe. I trailed a particuarly pleasent trio of lovelies clad in designer garb down the road and one was a carbon of my current pursuit.

Reality is this: you don't need to break your heart over a girl in Odessa, there is another 10 waiting to step into their shoes here. maybe one girl does not like you and will not take you at any price, maybe another girl will - its a pure bloody crapshoot.

Now the sheer Jason Bourne trust nothing side of me thinks all the time - am i being played? does my date deliberately turn up dressed low key and in the same clothes to make me think she is actually a princess in waiting? when she leaves my side does she go out dressed to the nines with her pack of women like the 3 i saw? - experience tells me no, reactions from certain things tell me I am the corruptor in this dynamic, my exe's were previously corrupted and they would not think to slum it just to get what they want - far from it - knowing i was a high roller they would dress deliberately to wake up neo jr to get what they wanted. BUT there is an important point at play. you can easily be fooled. I think my girl does exactly what she says on the tin, a number of key characteristics of her suggest she is not yet attuned and does not have the character to be a camouflaged Natasha yet, maybe when I am finished she will - but my real point is you can be sat across from what you think is a sweet home girl who would fool you into what most guys to believe to be a honest decent home lovin girl with no love of fancy baubles and 2 hours later she could be clad in Chanel strutting her stuff down the boulevard. the JB parallel is apt for Odessa - this is a city built of deception and traps for the unwary.

i take on board the comments about going in hot, the bag was a top tier designer bag bought tax free but what I would consider an every day bag. the big hitting bags are reserved for marriage

I have my own rules, dating pre-sex she gets designer tat that is easily paid for from my means, post nooky she gets the rocks and next tier. post marriage she gets invested in her own business, and post child she gets the lamborghini. This pyramid of materialism is abhorrent to a guy looking for a girl to love him heart and soul - i never said that finding a beautiful girl was task for a pauper. if i was a 7-11 clerk then she would leave in 10 minutes for some guy with a BMW, its just what pretty girls do. my father told me 'son if you want to sleep at night don't marry a beautiful woman'.

Beautiful women are like Ferrari's, they are expensive to acquire and maintain and go out of fashion quickly for a long period until they turn into a classic when their value goes through the roof. they require experienced drivers usually, if you don't you will crash it the first serious bend you hit, if you keep it on the road it will be  exciting, dangerous and you will never know when its going to kill you. if you manage to keep it long enough without it being stolen or blowing up then maybe it will turn into a classic you can enjoy in your old age and remember when you were an excited young buck and it was the fastest thing on the road.

being a materialistic lover of the good life is not mutually exclusive to being a good person and being genuine, pretty girls have a WIDE choice of men all of them of means - invariably they will still choose the one that makes them the happiest and make a astute trade of level of wealth and power and lifestyle for sexual and emotional attraction. I was broke as hell when I married my model wife but she knew under the material excess and devil may care attitude i had a good attitude to her and she was prepared to go without while I got on with rebuilding our fiscal status.

the trick to it is knowing what you are looking for, if you choose a girl like the trio i had pursued who already had their coffers lined by many westerners western union generosity there is nothing you can give that girl she does not already have. she can exist in the manner she wishes as she has already secured (temporarily but thats a different tale) what she wants or needs.

If you find a girl who has yet to be corrupted by western designer excess (even though she aspires to) then as pointed out its a question of having a limited control over the ensuing financial train wreck.

That is not to say you ever have COMPLETE control, but certainly you can hope to teach her the 'right' way to get what she wants. in my case i always give her 50% of what she wants and she needs to earn the rest - this is about building a relation of equals where she has to contribute half of what i do and not just take everything she is given. this is a fast rule. i only break it for exceptional good behaviour. Think back to when you were 20-23 and you realise you have yet to learn all the lessons of self control, discipline and good ethics - if you choose to bring a girl of this age into a world of instant house, car, money then she is going to have a ball unless you prepare her skillset to deal with it and be responsible. if you don't want to do this i suggest you DONT chase pretty girls under 25. its HARD work, and I am a young guy.

The sex thing is another question of control and manipulation - young women do not (especially if they are too pretty and not too clever) have the intelligent reasoning to control their mans behaviour, so they use sexual manipulation instead, once i a guy gets a good taste of skirt his common sense, reason and logic is ALL thrown out the window and he simply wants more hot-dog action.

This is a dangerous enough situation as it is without throwing in lust and sex to the mix. I am a big favour (if you exscuse me) of a good dose of self-relief prior to a date. stops you thinking about her arse all the time and allows you to concentrate on her personality. if you want to bed pretty young things its been said 1000 times do not do it when you are looking for a wife in the FSU. sex clouds your whole dynamic, you can take it as read you will enjoy it when it happens but the minute you bed her you are WIDE open to emotional blackmail and accusations you are using her, a sex tourist, not serious and she 'deserves' whatever it is she wants for bedding you and if you refuse you are some sort of babnik fiend.

I never sleep with a girl i am pursuing for a relationship until its a done deal, women hold sexual control over men and the best thing a man can do is take back that control and determine the timing of such events. it requires huge discipline but you can look at it both ways - if you buy her gifts before you sleep with her are you trying to buy her into bed? if you buy her gifts AFTER you sleep with her are you rewarding her for dropping her knickers.

My personal position is i NEVER reward a girl for sex, connecting sex with money is the path to prostitution. if i gave a girl an expensive gift (and as has happened) she wants to sleep with me straightaway to 'thank me' then i always decline the offer and point out i do not want us to sleep together until we are emotionally in the right place and she did not need to thank me with sex, she should have sex with me only because she wants it.

tim is right - this is  pure test of a girls greed, how far she is willing to go, what she gives up in return and when (as happens) i refuse to accede to her demands does she refuse to see me, does she try and emotionally black-mail or does she - and this is the most important - RESPECT ME for my decision and accept it even with a few tears but understands my reasons for refusing her.

You certainly can't get into a arms race of gift giving, for every expensive resteraunt date you should expect a date at a 10 USD cafe by the beach. for every Louis Vuitton Bag she should be just as happy with flowers stolen from the park.  we are looking for a sense of balance here that she can fit well into a pampered lifestyle and keep her feet enough on the ground not to be spoilt by it.

Rubicon, i appreciate you do not like this method and I do not claim its a foolproof way to do things, but as you can see from my above situation I am in a situation where due to my career good fortune I need to introduce a girl from modest means to a very pampered life without her being so utterly corrupted I lose the very good character she starts with that motivates me to be with her - if i wanted a uber-shopping bitch I could find plenty of those, what I want is a girl with a decent basis of values but one is happy to live a pampered life, because equally while i want her to respect her financial status I do not want a girl who skimps on things and turns up with me at a big company ball dressed like a college student. this gift giving excercise is purely to determine how well able she is to cope with this delicate balance of forces without becoming consumed by them and turning into a hardened selfish ultra-natasha.

but i will reinforce this : beautiful women usually cost money however you cut it unless they are already rich in which case they are not going to be interested in any of us!!!! - Its been said 1000 times that there are plenty of traditional values girls in provincial towns that want and are happy with a simple man and a simple life - what i am doing is much, much different, if i was in Monte Carlo to capture a partner of this calibre i would need to be a Russian Billionaire or Saudi prince or she would be working as a high class hooker. A trip down deri' shows you girls with these looks are a dime a dozen and there aren't enough Abramovitch's to go round to keep them all happy, so just as you guys are looking for something above what you get domestically I am getting a Monte Carlo princess for the budget of a B list celebrity weather girl (she would kill me for saying this but I am sure would pragmatically understand - if she was a Monte Carlo Princess well she would already be a Monte Carlo Princess).

ultimately any relationship is about what you both put in, i trade nationality and maintenance for a very beautiful partner with a decent set of values (hopefully), and she trades a younger beau and such things for a more pampered lifestyle. its just that simple. if you can find a girl who is victoria secrets hot that asks you for nothing - please share your secrets in a book on amazon because you will be RICH beyond measure from it, but it rarely exists so the reality is 'girls don't like boys girls love cars and money' - and when you are talking under 25 megan fox clones they are all GIRLS not WOMEN. when they get beyond 30 they start to realise how shallow their thinking is and start to mature and behave a bit better, your own responsible approach is not to give in to the desire for putang and a quick bedding and try and teach her to be a responsible young woman not just live off men at any cost to her moral sense of self worth.

Hopefully this clarifies my position - rather than being some terrible selfish monied lothario i DO have a strong charter not to corrupt this girl, I am determining by my course of actions not only are HER intentions sincere but ALSO that she is capable of being responsible, and with gentle guidance and help I can help her manage the transition from her life here to a pampered lifestyle without being utterly ruined in the process.

Why is this so important to me???

Well simply this is the mother of my future children, the values i teach to her she will teach to our children, the respect she shows me so also my children will respect me. I am not buying her 'at any price'. I give her things to increase her sense of self-worth and gradually adjust her thinking to a sense of balance, but i do it in such a way i can capture any chance she has to go off the rails down a path of greed or selfishness. if she doesn't want to take this tutoring in wealth management i am happy to abandon ship knowing whatever the investment cost me it was cheap at twice the price compared to a messy divorce after the event.

And here is my final point.

AW is the ULTIMATE corruptor of young women, they take impressionable young girls, abuse their dreams and then bastardise them into thinking there is such a thing as a free lunch. to suck them into their money printing press they throw at them iphones, car competitions, holidays, shopping sprees all to get them to toe the agency line and keep the men coming back for more. its the most MORALLY reprehensible business model i have ever witnesses and can only be likened to sex traffickers but without the sex. they keep all the girls on a short leash to ensure they aren't able to fall in love (even when many want to) no matter how good the guy they will stop any chance they have from escaping (like a good pimp does) and then when they are old and able to be replaced by a fresh batch of 19 year olds like used porn models they are spat out the other end with a completely screwed set of morals, emotionally broken by countless men telling them how beautiful they are and wining and dining them and then no guy worth 2 kopeks in their city will touch them since they have spent years in every resteraunt in town living the high life - they are NOT the girl vladamir brings home to mama.

Your only chance (and its still to be proven it can even be done) to take one of these girls out the hands of the AW pimp is to get her early before the rot has set in and she is beyond rescue, you need to give her a MUCH better offer than AW is currently doing i.e you not only need to be the nicest guy on the planet and utterly charm her heartstrings you also need to give her financial security to leave the no risk AW candystore and believe in something bigger and better.

if you can show her the path she is walking down is a dead end, and that you are a better offer for life as well as here and now and she has feelings for you then maybe JUST maybe you call pull her out the devils lair. - remember even prostitutes sometimes fall for their clients (its not a myth, a city banker friend moved in with his long-time call girl provider).

but heres the rub, and it will not sit well with the 'she must love only my heart not my wallet crowd'

this is like getting a addict off crack cocaine, if you expect them just to go cold turkey it will NEVER HAPPEN - no girl is going to fall instantly in love with you and give up all her secure options just to be with you for the heck of it unless you actually live here and spend huge amounts of time with her like a normal BF - you need to give her more than she has already, thats the kicker.

the reason is simple (and i have done it prior) she is burning her bridges. they exercise COMPLETE control over their girls and such is the insidous nature of the machine as soon as she breaks free - just as in the matrix she is going to get flushed down the pipe - her ONLY hope is that morpheus is there with the sub waiting to spirit her way to Zion and freedom.

She can never go back, they will NEVER plug her back into the matrix. she will be set aside, and being the consort of a foreigner means she also burns her bridges with the local guys who will just treat her as a prostitute (happened to many UA female friends when it all went bad).

she has to trust in you totally, if you betray her she is going to end up bereft of her keys to the AW goodie bag and back to being a low paid young girl who no longer gets to go to expensive resteraunts, have expensive shopping trips etc. its the same as being 'faceless' to a young woman i.e losing your facebook account.

getting a girl out of this agency machinery is a HORRIBLE ordeal for both you and hear, i shit you not this is Not for the feint of heart or wallet - you have to stake big, and you will lose big if it goes wrong, but if you do not commit, if you do not be Arragorn and become the King you will not win your Arwen - its that simple, she wants to see courage, commitment, decency and security.

there are 2 ways to go: you have to go in balls out with a sizable bet (my approach) make a big offer early but do so knowing you need to tame her exuberance and like a reformed crack addict put her through a long period of relationship rehab, this is expensive, emotional and dangerous.

way 2 is you have to continue to feel quarters into the slots in the hope eventually your luck will land you a jackpot before you run out of quarters. if you keep going at the AW machine and chip away at her bit by bit, then just as if you are a kind considerate client for many years who brings a hooker flowers and does not treat her like a hooker then maybe the woman inside her will forget the business you are doing together and see the real man in you enough to retire.

NEITHER - and i DO REPEAT NEITHER methods are certain - i give best odds at less than 3$ because option A means you have to have a good enough offer to blow all comers clean out of the water. its the richard gere julia roberts pretty woman effect.

option 2 is a war of kindness against financial attrition.

I will share the latest salvo with you later in the week, all i will say for now is that I am completely in the thick of it and trying to do some counter-insurgency against prevailing threats. just as you get out the matrix you realise you still have all that conditioning to do to 'unlearn' her behaviour pattern that 'no that is not air you are breathing' moments, if you know matrix lore the best status i can describe this as we are in 'exile' space - she is an exile that is still plugged into the matrix who I still need to get fully unplugged - the agents are indeed still chasing us and I am trying to make the telephone box in time :}

i hope for my sake, and also for the sakes of those bloody optimists that there is some small chance i can pull this off and get out before smith has me that this can be done.

but as always do not do this. i would not do this. its a sometimes painfully sad journey taking on a marketing goliath with this level of psychological manipulation at its disposal when your intended rescuee is not old enough to realise the danger the matrix presents her.

the thing I will say is this to the naysayers - the girl i am dealing with has a good heart. I am not (as you can tell by my writing) a romantic fool, i know what enemies i face and she is not one of them. like many young women she has been misguided into a path not knowing or fully understanding the implications - the occassional tales we have from other men who have successfully pulled girls out the AW machine from Odessa have reported similar experiences - that girls were often decieved, manipulated, trained and lied to - far from being cold-hearted scammer bitches many of these girls are kind and simple and just want what all girls want - to feel special.

If we want to direct our anger at someone, it should not be the girls - the are abused and victimised as much as the men, you can argue they are party to the fraud but in many cases they are oblivious to the fraud being carried out such is the power of the machine, in many cases of ex AW i know of they are hugely angry when they find out how they were being used.

Of course AW has its fair share of hardened hands at this, you can liken it to the prostitute who takes 3 clients, falls in love with the third in her first week and quits vs the 3 year career bitch who is so selfish she does not care about anything but money. the only hope is ever with the former since they are not yet instinctively corrupted to this way of thinking and still possess a lot of the dreams they entered the machine with.

and this is the fundamental reason why my attitude at the moment could possibly upset right thinking people who don't see the detail, treating this for what it is 'a great vacation life experience in the company of a pretty girl' is how i get through this with my heart, sanity, emotional wellbeing and wallet in tact. if i gave way to romantic idealism, sexual lust and hopes of a happy clappy loved up romantic soujourn i would stop seeing the wood for the trees which is I am involved with a girl who is party to a massive fraudulent machine business in a country that is built of pure corruption and my only, only hope of victory that is so slim you can barely whisper it in case it slips away is to appeal to her deep down sense of right and wrong and personal future welfare. to do so I have to resort to the same bribery, corruption and business approach that got her into this mess

 - rehab will come later.

and thats at the core of my warning - and the reason for such a detailed blog and account with plenty of introspection - for ANY guy still lingering in the doubt he can fly into Odessa and bag a Victoria Secrets model off the back of his charm you are either plain stupid or plain lucky. the guys who walked away with a AW girl did so for the sheer roulette luck of managing to connect with a woman who clearly saw enough in them to take a leap of faith, for every 1 guy there is probably 10's of thousands who were broken and burned.

and have no doubt this is gruelling - it took 3 years to reform my ex-prodater fiance into anything resembling a normal relationship attitude, rehab is the painful and long and expensive side of this affair.

so i will leave it there, more updates will follow, i hope if anything this is a cautionary tale not a how to for newbies, it was borne from a sense of frustration that guys just 'dont get it' no matter how many times you tell them that the whole AW machine is just a big facade to extract dollars. you have next to no chance of ever getting what you want out of it and if you are not as brutally direct as I have managed to be it will hurt you like hell in the process - and thats a key point - I am not getting through this without war scars - this is doing the best to pull my heart from its armor to pull me into the void of darkness and its taking every bit of experience and cynicism to stay the course, and ultimately be prepared to walk away hands empty and admit to myself - and very publicly on this board that i have tried and been beaten by the system.

for months afterwards we can debate where i should have turned left and right, but the reality is we all know the outcome would be the same REGARDLESS of what i do simply because whatever this girl wants, whatever motivates her is the deciding factor - there is very little i can control only influence in her decision making process and everyone is against me in this.

honestly speaking today I do not know how this will pan out, I am fighting fires on a daily basis trying to stop the train wrecking. just as unstoppable its a question of getting to the train to put the brakes on before we run out of track, and we are rapidly running out of track.

[Rubicon]

perhaps a moderator or other more technical person than I can tell me how to put portions of a blog into rectangles in order to just quote that specific part.

Neo wrote:
"this is like getting a addict off crack cocaine, if you expect them just to go cold turkey it will NEVER HAPPEN - no girl is going to fall instantly in love with you and give up all her secure options just to be with you for the heck of it unless you actually live here and spend huge amounts of time with her like a normal BF - you need to give her more than she has already, thats the kicker."

I think that is key here, if you want to have any real relationship with a woman from AnastasiaDate, you should be willing to take a leave of absence from work and live with her or near her for at least 3 months.

Neo, you and I are very different cats; but I appreciate your methods because they are relevant to your work status and assets, etc.  I come from a very poor and simple background and consequently like down to earth simple women who have not been corrupted by a large agency.  I think any new person reading this saga should think thrice about using Anastasia or other such large agency.  Perhaps they should focus just on women age 25 and above, or even close to 30 and above.  it seems that the women closer to 30 are going to have more life experiences and be much more prepared to settle down and get married.  they also realize that their clock is ticking.

PS.  The sooner I can get a lady into bed the better.  my attitude is that consummating the relationship leads to hearts and thoughts being closer.  if she is the right woman for me, she is NOT going to use sex as a method to get bigger and better presents.  she will be happy with my company and with small romantic gestures and presents.  In my youth I dated several virgins, and in each case I was too timid to seal the deal.  Consequently they were deflowered by some other guy, who they than fell in love with. 

[neo]

Rubicon.

I'm with you.

Firstly agree the money point, I actually came from a poor background too which is why i live life probably too much to excess, a hungry dog is always hungry or something like that.

what I wanted to really seal was your age thing.

Married my ex when she was 23, now at nearly 30 she is finally the mature, responsible, family minded girl who will make an excellent wife and mother. when I met her she was a handful, when her ex had her from 17-23 she was just a bloody nightmare. like good wines you need to let them mature to get the best flavour.

I 10000% support Rubicons view that you SHOULD NOT pursue a under 25 girl for marriage REGARDLESS of how much you BS yourself that she is mature. maybe you have a girl who is the exception - i do not deal in exceptions. a horse is still a horse even if you put a saddle on it.

if you do break the 25 altitude ceiling then except turbulence for the next few years and you better be a DAMN GOOD pilot not to nosedive to earth. they are HARD work, usually quite emotionally immature and prone to the sort of nonsense my blogs bear witness too.

I have, my dear gentleman friends come to the startling (for me conclusion) that chasing young birds is not really that much fun any more

pretty much all the under 25's are just female players. they are not at all serious unless you have the wealth of a small emirate petro-gulf state.

as Rubi points out over 25 and their options are limited, a translator told me that girls over 25 get 1/10 the letters the u25's get and over 30's they will be lucky to get even one guy to visit them. thinking rationally most of the 25-30 year olds were ironically the 19 year olds i chased when i started this just with a lot more common sense.

top benefits (in my book) of dating a older 25+ woman:

they won't mess you around playing little girl games
they will have lost their status ego usually by then since they are undercut by a army of 19 yo's.
they will probably have settled their hormones down
you won't need to buy them anything to impress them.
you will get much more nooky, much quicker and with less demands in return
much more likely to commit.

probably 1000 other common sense reasons.

in one respect the odds are with me, if my girl stays with her agency another 2.5 years I can come around for a second pass having bought a nice collection of italian toys and a big boat and nobbled half a dozen emirates air stewardesses with the money i saved not funding her in the interim.

another 3 years of bachelor playboy antics?

don't seem so bad to me.

look forward to future installment of this thread 'darling, lets just be friends....'

[tim 360]

...  I think any new person reading this saga should think thrice about using Anastasia or other such large agency...

Ruby,  He isn't advocating for anyone to use AWEB at all or their young girls, in fact quite the opposite.  This is his experiment on vacation in Odessa and it seems he definitely does not recommend this techinque for others.  It's like base jumping off NYC skyscrapers.  It's Extreme Dating in Odessa and he is running his game.  If he's in commidities it's nearly the same high.

There is the old saw of "there are good girls at bad agencies" and he is drilling away at that.  Don't try this stuff at home or Odessa.  This is not for everyone and I think some bumps are coming in the road ahead.  

PM'd you the "quote" method.

[Rubicon]

Ruby,  He isn't advocating for anyone to use AWEB at all or their young girls, in fact quite the opposite.  This is his experiment on vacation in Odessa and it seems he definitely does not recommend this technique for others.  It's like base jumping off NYC skyscrapers.  It's Extreme Dating in Odessa and he is running his game.  If he's in commodities it's nearly the same high.

There is the old saw of "there are good girls at bad agencies" and drilling away at that.  Don't try this stuff at home or Odessa.  This is not for everyone and I think some bumps are coming in the road ahead.

agreed.  I think Neo is a thrill seeker, and he gets his jollies trying to game the system!!

[SFandEE]

agreed.  I think Neo is a thrill seeker, and he gets his jollies trying to game the system!!

or at least telling stories about gaming the system on RWD

[neo]

or at least telling stories about gaming the system on RWD

honestly speaking I just share this stuff because I am bored in the apartment and it gives me something to do to kill time and stop me smoking so much. I'm used to being on the go at work 10 hours a day so doing nothing for 10 minutes drives me mental.

I could just as happily keep it to myself but I like to share a very different perspective to the norm, also since the principle reason i decided to embark on this debacle was to get a first hand run at the AW/ODS routing that causes so much ill-words on the boards so there would be no point in doing it in private.

the fact its a very messy public board affair should only heighten awareness that (for those that still don't get it) AW is not at all a serious business for normal guys looking for nice girls. As I have eluded to in prior post its already changed my perspective that most modern U22 UA agency girls are now a no go zone for the serious relationship looker, they are just a trivial as their OC sisters and just as air-headed.

My naughtiness is primarily to show as well it shows that even with very deep pockets to outspend the agency vultures you can STILL not secure good outcome, so what hope have you got to trust to luck or good character?

we can take it as read by my CV i have managed to land some good looking partners in the past, so we can assume my 'game' is OK but all things being equal if the lifestyle i have at my disposal is not enough to grab one of these girls by the knickers an average joe has pretty much no chance to secure one of the victoria secrets-a-likes.

my belief is the guys that have done this have done it only probably with women over 25 who are not the 11/10 eye-candy that props up the top 1000 AW slots or they are a complete anomaly. for the average punter the experience will be a complete fleecing, returning empty handed and sad.

I wanted to put it out there once and for all - 'this cannot be done'

for those waiting for the next installment, its coming, I have just fired off my final 'salvo' to see if the situation is salvagable, but you can guess by that train wreck we all expected will unfold in the next couple of postings.

unfortunately I have run out of smokes, so I am going to bed before the nicotine withdrawl keeps me awake all night so will post the next events probably before weekend by the time which i think the whole damn caper should be done and dusted and we can sift through the wreckage for shits and giggles.

[Rubicon]

or at least telling stories about gaming the system on RWD

truth is stranger than fiction, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that Neo is not telling the truth.  he may have deeper pockets than many, and he may be willing to take larger risks.  this does not at all mean that he is just "telling stories".  On the contrary, he has been very honest about the pitfalls of trying to extract a woman from the Corporate clutches of Anastasia.

[neo]

i have no dog in this fight,

i choose AW-ODS because its the most controversial thing you can do on RWD and i wanted to dispel a lot of the rumor mongering that many still do not believe to be factual.

i set out with the intent to have a nice vacation with companionship of a pretty girl (who may or may not be paid, who can tell)

if she turned out to be a keeper, good for me.

if i crashed and burned as well all expect, good for all the guys who can't burn their wallet and heart in pursuit of a UNICORN.

i am not bitter and twisted since I did not believe the hype from day 1, lots of guys feel angry, feel cheated, because they believed the marketing - if you don't believe any of the BS then you have nothing to lose you are not prepared to.

if even 10 AW customers decide to abandon ship and listen to RWD because they found this a entertaining and insightful read then my work here is done.

I do not share this information to be boastful, but to try and educate those that can't afford it EXACTLY what they are in for if they do the AW-ODS trip.

they will think they will spend less than me, but they will spend more, they will think because they were nicer to the girl than me they will be more successful, they will think i chose an obvious pro so got burned, they will think all these things but the clever guys know the end result will still be the same

Rubi is right, if this was a yarn my ego would be back here telling you what a dating pro i am, how i managed to date these amazing hot girls and with NO MONEY SPENT AT ALL had them involved in a roman orgy on the first date and we are getting married next week,  i am not telling you these things, I am giving you an account of how a normal joe with not much sense might behave with no knowledge of the FSU game, the fact I have that knowledge and choose to use it to bend the tactics as I see fit is the essence in all this of self-protection but the idea is to sail as close to the wind as possible without capsizing to get a true account as possible based on normal dating paradigms if this is actually possible or not.

if i kept it to myself the whole damn thing would be a complete waste of time. i might have well have spent 5 grand on taking a Italian high class hooker to the maldives.

which is possibly my next trip plan. :p

[Rubicon]

I think I like the idea of taking an Italian courtesan to the Maldives!!  It might not meet the forum guidelines, but that's a story you could probably publish and sell...

[Jumper]

SF-


 For what it's worth Neo has been around for a decade it seems..on a couple boards i've moderated.
He has played footsie with, and married ,the agency top banner ad girls in the past and knows a few members here in person.His story outline ,particularly the going on a vacation and *why not* attitude, is very eerily similar to my own  past ,minus the business class perks unfortunately.I did not share my own path, for fear of encouraging anyone to follow suit.It's folly and there are far better options in this endeavor.


Not everyone is just here spinning  a yarn.

Neo does a good job writing his tale in an entertaining fashion,
 and I'm looking forward to future installments!

I really do hope his girl is genuine , and that it all works out!
As i'd like him to settle down a nice stable married man again ,like in the past,
 as it leaves a few more single women out there for us lesser mortals.
Last year I had no idea he was out and about and had given up on flight attendants,
 or I would have moved a bit quicker.
 

 if it doesn't work out ,I'm sure he'll be out 3 months later hitting on yet  another Italian waitress and later driving her  fathers Alfa Romeo,
some guys do have all the luck.

[SFandEE]

The most intriguing part of the stories is the industry that affords this travel and lifestyle.

References to Bond and Bourne have been made--but I think I also have seen something about business in Asia.  I don't think Neo is in the international spy business--Alfa Romeos and Lomborghinis considered.

I am not so much calling out the story--who knows what is real and creation.  Let's say it is all as it is written.  I certainly can relate to some of the stories in my experience.  Some of it is verbose and comments from others unreferenced.  I don't recall anywhere in the thread where we learned that GF #1 has La Perla lingerie and for a young 20 year-old to have LaPerla indicates a professional or kept status to me with of course exceptions.  Especially VS models from Ukraine.

I like that the behavior of Neo respects that nothing ventured nothing gained and that 25 and under is a bit of a stretch for finding a serious woman about serious relationships.  That would seem to be accurate for most anywhere, probably especially VS quality women from Ukraine.  I also suspect a man of so much value to a business/industry would have high expectations on the intelligence and culture concern--that woman would most definitely be 25 and older and probably very interested in someone with so much fun and adventure with a handbag, diamond, Lamorghini, house, and personal business plan.

One interesting note on that matter--I can't think of VS model from Ukraine, Russia, US, Brazil, Australia, Germany, Czech Republic, UK and the Carribean, but not Ukraine.  Maybe they are too expensive for VS to afford as well.

[ML]

top benefits (in my book) of dating a older 25+ woman:

they won't mess you around playing little girl games
they will have lost their status ego usually by then since they are undercut by a army of 19 yo's.
they will probably have settled their hormones down
you won't need to buy them anything to impress them.
you will get much more nooky, much quicker and with less demands in return
much more likely to commit.

probably 1000 other common sense reasons.

I haven't been with a woman under 25 . . . . since way back when I was under 25.

However, I don't quite think these advantages of being with those 25 and above are the absolute that you infer.

I think many women have some of these attributes to some degree even when they are into their 80s and beyond.  They are, after all, still women.

I would propose the concept of 'lessen.'

For instance:  they won't mess you around playing little girl games . . . as much as previously.

they will have lessened their status ego . . . .

[tim 360]

...One interesting note on that matter--I can't think of VS model from Ukraine, Russia, US, Brazil, Australia, Germany, Czech Republic, UK and the Carribean, but not Ukraine.  Maybe they are too expensive for VS to afford as well.

Here's one for you:  Nataliya Gotsiy from 7 years ago.

But she never really made the cut--too thin or something.

Or Olga Kurylenko (the Bond Girl)

[Aloe]

I don't think they care about thin. Look at this one  

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/8068/magazine/photoalbum/detail/1244325/954192/11/Graatmager-model-op-fotoshoot-Victoria-s-Secret.dhtml

That's not even attractive   I like all their faces, but the bodies of the two on the left are really wayyy to thin, makes their legs look so awful. The one with black hair, golden shoes and without sunglasses looks very good though

[Misha]

I like all their faces, but the bodies of the two on the left are really wayyy to thin, makes their legs look so awful.

I agree. This photo is even more striking of the emaciated bow-legged look 

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/8068/magazine/photoalbum/detail/1244325/954193/10/Graatmager-model-op-fotoshoot-Victoria-s-Secret.dhtml

[SFandEE]

That's not even attractive   I like all their faces, but the bodies of the two on the left are really wayyy to thin, makes their legs look so awful.

A lot of this thread seems to be about trophies or items, so a VS model is a rare trophy.  In Ukraine too.  Looks like someone found one from Ukraine over the past seven years and a Bond girl who never plans to remarry after two divorces or return to Ukraine.

Here is a wiki reference in the Personal Life section for Olga--good insight into her marriage sustainability.

In 2000, Kurylenko married French fashion photographer Cedric van Mol,[25][26] but the couple divorced four years later. In 2006, she married American mobile phone accessory entrepreneur Damian Gabrielle.[10] They divorced in late 2007.[27] Kurylenko lived in Paris after leaving Ukraine in 1996 to pursue her modeling career,[9] but moved to London in 2009.[22] In 2001, she was granted French citizenship.[3] In an October 2009 chat session with Komsomolskaya Pravda Ukraine, she stated that she does not intend to move back to Ukraine, or to remarry.[22]

[Rubicon]

although Neo has referred to Victoria's Secrets on several occasions he also clarified and stated that he likes women who have more meat on their bones, more like a 1950's pinup model than a skinny scrawny model type of today.

[neo]

Ok guys, the endgame has arrived (by my doing) so its time to get everything wrapped up and let the introspection begin. however this lark started the reality is that in the bottom of my heart i had some hope that i would meet a nice genuine girl and there was a 1 in a million shot we could make this thing fly. i do write in a style to make this an amusing read, and i do make light of some very difficult and touchy subjects in order to ensure it is not too dry, that should not detract from the fact that despite all my faults (and i admit i have many) i hope to find a nice girl to settle with some day.

The things i am forced to do in this process are not something I would WANT to do, they are things that are forced on me by circumstances to try and get through situations with pride, dignity, heart and wallet intact. I dearly wish i had just met this girl down the park, she wasnt at a agency and we knew none of the things we know. i wanted a simple boy meets girl romance, but that is not the world we live in, and for whatever reason we dream the things we do we have to protect ourselves from our own idealism with the hard cold face of reality.

my ENTIRE reason for exposing this in such detail (at the risk of my own romance, since those involved could easily guess if they read it) is to protect others from heartbreak and financial ruin. I have ONE SIMPLE RULE for this adventure, be honest, deal with honest people - if the agencies and girls all played fair we would not have to jump through so many hoops and could all be much happier, it doesnt actually bring me that much pleasure in reality to have to go through this just to meet a girl i want to meet and get to know her, but while others have alterior motives we are often forced to walk a path not of our choosing, or simply walk away from something we want so badly.

my reason for posting is also self-therapy. along the way i have invested a certain amount emotionally in this and when (and now) it has not turned out to be it does actually hurt quite a bit. hopefully sharing it and the knowledge i could save at least 1 guy some pain makes me feel my endeavours have had some good beyond the self-indulgent. i was serious about my intentions to this girl in so far as that she was serious in her intentions to me - that is to say if she was honest and sincere then my approach to her would be the same, it is hard to build trust with a stranger in such a financially motivated business model therefore it is hard to have a 'normal' situation.

Firstly on my background, I'm not in the espionage business

I left school at 16 with a pretty crappy education because (as you can guess) i spent all my time chasing girls and did not do any schoolwork. I moved to London with no money and managed to get a internship at a Swiss Investment Bank in the city as a runner (basically postal boy/dogsbody). i worked my way up to the trading floor and am what is in city parlance a 'barrow boy' who got his trading desk by virtue of being a good gambler and having a nose for a deal rather than any sound grasp of economics. From there i went to a boutique hedge fund and now ply my trade in the Venture Capital business investing in media companies as partner for Middle east and Asia so instead of riding a trading desk for 10 hours i get more travel but still have a decent bonus package (when the portfolio is doing well).

So i never had any interest in any of the Phd economics crowd, like most guys from my background we are seen as 'spivs' by the Ivy league MBA fraternity and they generally don't like us for the fact we collect better bonuse's for them despite lack of paper qualification, since i started out dating pretty hairdressers with not much intelligence that has been my form since. For sure i have done the dating thing in high class bars, and dating agencies but I still enjoy a trip to the FSU for the sense of adventure it brings.

so back to the account, its done and dusted now bar the shouting.

PRIDE COMES BEFORE THE FALL:

so we had our next date in another fancy resteraunt, as usual the driver and terp picked me up and we headed for the eating establishment, i decided to lay off the booze this time since I had overdone it really last time. we had a nice meal and the conversation was pleasant, the bill was still a hefty 180 USD sans booze but it was a nice joint with a sea view. but still way overpriced given the country.

then the prospect of a shopping trip was decided upon....

We headed over to a shopping mall on the far side of the town, my date asked me 3 times if she had free reign to choose what she wanted and i replied 'within reason'. sadly within reason was too subtle for a young girl in a cosmetics store and I should have put a stop loss on it and capped her but I wanted to see what the worse she could do would be. this was the second part of the handbag situation and it will be come clear this got the result intended...

the terp to her credit warned me full well my AMEX was about to get melted. and my girl just went berserk. I did not really pay ANY attention to what she was up to but it would have been cheaper to buy the shop. i did have a look at some of the UA amounts of the items she was tryping and nothing was less than 30-40 bucks a go. all designer warpaint.

So we get to the checkout, i have been here before and i know this is going to be brutally ugly, but even that did not prepare me for the sheer devastation this girls shopping was capable of. the counter was just covered in expensive womens shit. i mean CARPETED IN IT. huge draw of breath from me and the terp.

'you are fucking joking' i said to her but decided, because as we see from above I have been professionally trained to sit in front of a monitor watching my net wealth dissapear in seconds in a sea of large numbers rather than stopping the losses right now I would see where the market would dive to

they racked it up, must have taken 10 minutes, just one BIG number after another BIG number, i said to the terp ' will place a hedge with you, whats the end price - i bet 2 grand. it won't be good says the terp quite shocked.

I just watch with disbelief as my date and the onlookers just giggle, i have a face like a storm but I have good anger management where money loss is concerned so keep my cool - seething rage is bubbling under a saucepan lid best describes it.

so the final tally, they apply the terps discount coupon which in itself was a number that would make a grown man weep.

Now i had set in my head a figure I was prepared to indulge her in, this was my 'strike price' for a deal. if she was under it then i would buy her stock, if she bust then it was far too expensive for the market and I would cover my losses and short sell.

15,000 UAH - AFTER DISCOUNT!!!!!!

i will repeat that. because i know how many of you guys just fell off your stools or spat coffee all over your monitor.

thats right folks 15 THOUSAND. thats ballpark 2,000 USD after discount on what amounted to a bunch of chemicals in expensive packaging.

i just shook my head.

'you are fucking having a laugh' - i really was that candid.

i just slowly shook my head as the collective shop assistants and my date waited for the reaction.

now at this point i know what you are all thinking, they expect i am the silly foreigner on the wrong side of town who is afraid to upset his date and does not want to embarrass himself in front of a shop of people.

sadly for the girl in question and the shopkeeper I am a hard hearted sort who does not embarrass easily, I was covered enough to get a taxi home if needed and could always fall back on my indepedant apartment service driver to come and pick me up (this is why you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a second indy terp + driver on call and a charged up cellphone).

minutes pass i just look at them. they are waiting for the plastic.i draw breath and say.

'no. fucking. way'.

'2 fucking grand' - sorry mods but you will appreciate the language was well deserved.

'you have to be insane'

she just smiled at me.

i just shook my head.

'you've got 1,000 max. decide what you want to keep and what you are going to put back'

now why 1 grand i hear you ask? why not walk away and pay nothing?

well here it is. i invited it.

thats right folks, she asked me 3 TIMES for a spending cap and i let her have a free trade to see what the worse she could do would be. the reason was simple, as the bag stunt proved this was a invited ambush, my principle and early day concern would be exactly how much money was this young lady prepared to run up on my tab if she was loose on rodeo drive while i was away on business. More than once I have had to pay of excessive credit card indulgence and more than anything I want to know what capacity a woman has to self regulate her excess.

Having proved she would indeed just go utterly berserk, while i was not going to let her off the hook completely scott free and pay the butchers bill i was at least prepared to shoulder 50% of the responsibility and embarrassment and dissapointment that neither of us was going to get the outcome we were looking for - madness you think but it was the gentlemanly thing to do - if you invite disaster then you have to be prepared for the compensation to make good the damage your risk exposure delivers.

her little face collapses the way every person's does when they get a bill they cannot pay and face the embarrassment of the shopkeeper for making them undo everything they just did.

so they go to work unringing the insane bag of booty and she divides out 1000 bucks worth of tat she wants to keep and the rest goes back. I think even the shopkeeper accepted they had let her go berserk without pre-qualifying her ability to fund therefore had to accept responsibility for the over-leveraging she now needed to cover.

it took another 10 minutes to deal with, i had made sure I had sufficient cash to cover the majority of the bill with a sub 500 spend on my plastic since i did not want the bank fraud department shutting down my credit lines this early into a vacation. we get the final tally and i pay up the cost of my experiment.

my god i am pissed. really, really pissed. while i had expected a damaging bill this was in a whole new league of early dating excess.

we have a discussion outside. she KNOWS i am just furious at her but rather than resorting to screaming, shouting yelling or being abusive i don't give her the satisfaction of having a tear tantrum and parking blame at my door.

i just tell her straight 'what makes you THINK that this was an acceptable thing to do? seriously? i expected you to have at least SOME self control, we are on our XX date and you think you have earned the right to spend that kind of money? - you are NOT my fiance, you are NOT my WIFE. you did not EARN the right to spend my money in that way, i am shocked at you, really shocked. i expected better'.

the fun loving, happy, sweet girl has gone. her face is that of a scalded child that has just set fire to the cat.

we get in the car and head back to the city, i sit quietly seething with obvious rage as we head back to the apartment.

At this point my rage is deliberate, she needs to KNOW 100% how wrong what she did was. if she had come in under 500 bucks I would have shrugged it off without a word, if she had told me what she was spending and got my approval before she went to the desk again she would have been a keeper - i want a girl who while likes to spend still has financial control.

Also i want to see how she reacts when i say no to something, would she throw a tantrum and be a hysteric and call me everything under the sun and threaten me? we see this classic pro-dater emotional blackmail played out constantly so i wanted to know what her motivation was - innocent girl gone berserk or deliberate fleecing.

so we get back to the apartment, i pay off the driver and terp. i just look at her. the terp translates her meek apology, she says she was really sorry that she went nuts, she is just a girl and girls sometimes do stupid things and she thought it would be OK.

I reply to her 'i do not care about the money, i repeat I do NOT care about the money' (this is important to establish its not because i am a cheap jo or a mean guy which will invite her to direct the problem at me in classic PD emotional BM style). what i CARE about is your ATTITUDE and CHARACTER. the fact you think it acceptable to do 2K of a strangers money who is NOT your fiance, and NOT your husband who you BARELY KNOW - what makes you think that is an acceptable way to behave?'

then i calm down.

'i am so sad right now, i had hoped you would have shown more restraint and had better character, i really thought you were better than this and i do not know what to say to you, you have broken my heart'.

she is subdued. but it is honest realisation that she has done something REALLY, REALLY stupid rather than a good piece of play acting to stop me doing murder on her.

'im sorry. i really like you'

'you are a good person' is her parting shot.

i just get out the car and head for the apartment in a silent finale.

Now at this point i never expect to hear from her or see her again. if she is a classic PD then she has gone in for a lightning smash and grab bank raid at dawn and got away with 50% of the booty.

At this point i am actually genuinly sad - even though you expect the worst when the worst finally happens it is still a crushing blow when it happens.

I brought this to my door, I fully accept, but from experience i really wanted to get this nasty surprise out the way early. sooner or later the chances are you need to learn this characteristic of your chosen spouse, and its much better to do it when your entire net wealth is not at stake - call it a controlled burn to avoid the whole rig going down with you on it.

i go back to the apartment and have a smoke.

i am REALLY, REALLY sad.

despite my posting style leading you to believe otherwise, and despite my self belief my heart is teflon coated it still hurts that a girl i wanted to believe could be better has fallen so badly at the first hurdle. while i did not expect better i certainly HOPED for better.

and this is the rub for me, i really liked this girl and wanted to believe she would behave properly, of course my own actions had courted her to this point so you can fully say i was 100% agent provocateur and its classic entrapment so very hard to convict her of, if you give a thief a open window what will they do? that said what you hope for is moral self control will be present that they will not take what is on offer. its wishful thinking perhaps but i have met girls who would have been more tempered.

Now here is the problem:

I always think the worse. pro-dater. scammer. all these things spring to mind, my default reaction is that she has got what she wanted and i will never hear a word from her again. my heart is sinking with this realisation the very worst possibility is upon me.

it was either deliberate and wilful or the innocent mistake of a young girl with a kid in a sweetshop mentality. experience always points us to the former but we don't know her so who can tell.

it is a loooooooooooooooooong evening.

the tr gets in touch to tell me how shocked she was by her behaviour, me too....

then the surprise comes around midnight. my date would like to have lunch with me the next day.

i am shocked. i never expected her to face me again. she has courage i would give her that.

at this point i do not know why, to apologise, or to fish for more shopping gifts.I don't know but I accept the date since I want to find out.

they say when you cannot find a way out of a situation - find a way to get further in....