My divorce

[Aloe]

The Natural, I admire your wisdom.
As for comments - I think both you and Nat are right. Probably if the physical attraction were strong, the money issues would not become a deal breaker. But since it wasn't, other concerns surfaced.

I fully agree with Nat, that if one of spouses, especially a wife, earns significantly less than a husband, contributing equal shares of their respective incomes to joint budget does not seem fair. In fact, it is a clear disincentive for your (ex)wife to work at all. If she doesn't work, all family expenses are covered by you, and you give her some "pocket money". If she does work - still most of family expenses are covered from your income, her contribution isn't that big, and she has tiny amounts for herself. She still doesn't feel that she earns any money, because she doesn't see these money, and has little say in deciding how to spend the total family budget. As a result, to her it looks like she works for free, because from her individual standpoint, her personal "purchasing power" have changed negligibly vs. the case when she didn't work at all.

It's a clear cultural clash. For you it seems critical that your wife contributes exactly 50% (or more) of her income to family budget. She, on the other hand, might have thought: "If I didn't work at all - my husband would have spent money on my needs/clothes etc, now I do work, he has to spend less on me. But not only he isn't appreciative of my efforts, but he also wants to take my money and decide how to spend them." In all honesty, the fact that you paid the mortgage from your income is perfectly fair. It's your house anyway.

It appears that both you and your wife have benefited from this marriage neither financially, nor emotionally (because you are used to your own way of life, and for her you probably gave impression of being withdrawn at times), nor physically (since you say that on both parts attraction wasn't that strong). So indeed this is good that it did not take too much time to figure out that both of you are better off living separately. Probably your wife is a decent person if you say her demands during divorce weren't unreasonable.

If you do not mind me asking - how big were monthly expenses for your wife and her child? I am asking this because on another russian forum I read a discussion on how expensive is it for a european man to marry a woman with a child (or few children). So i'm trying to imagine how expensive this endeavor is in Norway.

thank you.

Mies, in another topic The Natural shared the exact amounts him and his wife were making an hour (25 and 17 if i remember correctly, by the way thanks for sharing), so unless there was a very dramatic difference in how many hours a week they both worked, i'd say their salaries aren't DRAMATICALLY different, so i don't see why not chip in on the family budget. I think she was feeling the love going out, so possibly she was instinctively preparing for the future alone by refusing to share her income. Of course we can never know, but if they did comparable amount of hours every week, then it is definitely not cultural that she wouldn't share.

[Aloe]

But if she was working 10 hours a week and he 40, then i agree it's silly to ask her to share, she already makes so much less Altho i think the best option is just have one joint account, then there is no arguments about sharing, cuz it all goes in the same pot.

[The Natural]

I suggested a joint account, but she insisted on a separate account and "her money" and "my money".

[Aloe]

I suggested a joint account, but she insisted on a separate account and "her money" and "my money".

That doesn't sound like very wifely behavior to me, but all people are different. As far as i'm concerned, i think she was already preparing for the inevitable. Maybe i'm young, optimistic and stupid, but i think the only reason to have separate accounts is if one partner is self-employed or going to be, then there is always a risk of him going into debts, and the court may come and take all your posessions and bank accounts, and with separate accounts (and prenup) they can't take the wife's account too, so the family has some means of survival then, that seems the only valid reason to have separate accounts.

[Misha]

I fully agree with Nat, that if one of spouses, especially a wife, earns significantly less than a husband, contributing equal shares of their respective incomes to joint budget does not seem fair.

My wife works and she has her own account. Most of what she earns from her part-time job she saves. At the end of the day, it does not bother me as I know that she will eventually spend it in a way that will improve our lives as a couple and a family.

[I/O]

FSUW and "their" children here in the GoodOl' USA, they don't share well with their new husbands.

My experience is vastly different.

[SMS60]

I suggested a joint account, but she insisted on a separate account and "her money" and "my money".

Let me guess, the "my money" portion was expected to pay for everything including her personal needs like make up, hair, medicine, ect. And " her money" was special and need not be used for anything that would help the family circle.

[GoodOlBoy]

My experience is vastly different.

Do any of the "experiences" you refer to also have "joint" children together in the household?
I ask, because it seems to make a difference in the couples I have encountered here.

Stepfather moves quickly to "Dad" status with a new baby in the household.


GOB.

[Gylden]

Do any of the "experiences" you refer to also have "joint" children together in the household?
I ask, because it seems to make a difference in the couples I have encountered here.

Stepfather moves quickly to "Dad" status with new baby.


GOB.

I have had a very good experience with my wife and her children. Maybe it is the exception, but it is my experience.
We have a joint account and always have had. We were always "all for one".


FWIW

[The Natural]

Well, as far as my case is concerned, it`s not about the money at all. She got her own account at once when she came and the monthly 125 Euros for her boy came to her account. She got her job and of course she had her own account.

But what made me get cold feet, was after we split up and she wanted to get together and negotiated that she keep her 60% of salary for, in her own words: "A black day" and "For her son". Hey, I would happily provide for her son as well, but it continued in the tracks I mentioned a couple of times before, that I felt it was a family of two different units, really. And when she topped off her suggestion by asking me if the reason I was willing to take them back was because of economics, I politely declined the whole idea. The sum that would have come from her into our joint expense account, would barely cover food expenses for the two of them. But that was not the dealbreaker. It was the attitude. It was disappointing.

[mies]

That doesn't sound like very wifely behavior to me, but all people are different. As far as i'm concerned, i think she was already preparing for the inevitable. Maybe i'm young, optimistic and stupid, but i think the only reason to have separate accounts is if one partner is self-employed or going to be, then there is always a risk of him going into debts, and the court may come and take all your posessions and bank accounts, and with separate accounts (and prenup) they can't take the wife's account too, so the family has some means of survival then, that seems the only valid reason to have separate accounts.

Aloe, I think "in the very worst case scenario" the debt is shared by both spouses, regardless of whether they have a shared account. It seems to me that when one spouse goes bankrupt, the bank will try to recover at least some money. So a spouse starts acting as a "collateral" unless he's also ready to file for bankruptcy. Maybe western people on this board can correct me or contribute some details.

In our family we have separate accounts, neither of us ever felt like we need to have a joint account. If we need to do some massive expenditure - we discuss it, and decide how much each of us can contribute, and sometimes it may happen that either one will contribute most of it. I really try to keep "accounting" out of my relationship, but I also need to feel how much I am earning and for that I like to have separate aco*snip*. I think my husband feels the same.

I agree with you that if the woman was "saving" money for herself and her son, maybe she saw the end coming  

Natural, you need to understand that she does not know you well enough, and probably in her previous relationship she was in a situation when man left her and she did not have money for herself and her baby. Some experiences are so strong that an individual learns the lesson once and forever.

[GoodOlBoy]

Well, as far as my case is concerned, it`s not about the money at all. She got her own account at once when she came and the monthly 125 Euros for her boy came to her account. She got her job and of course she had her own account. .

She got "child support" from the Russian father?

GOB

[The Natural]

She got "child support" from the Russian father?

GOB

Oh no, from the state as any child/parent get until age 16.

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh no, from the state as any child/parent get until age 16.

OK.
I have asked several FSUW here where I live about support from the Russian father and they give me this "strange visitor from another planet" look.
It took me awhile to process this behavior, but I now understand that Russian fathers do not support their children.

GOB

PS....If you don't mind me asking, did you have to pay anything to the father to get the kid out of Russia. A man in my building "supposedly" had to pay off the Russian father (money to sign paperwork).

[The Natural]

OK.
I have asked several FSUW here where I live about support from the Russian father and they give me this "strange visitor from another planet" look.
It took me awhile to process this behavior, but I now understand that Russian fathers do not support their children.

GOB

Yes, in her case, the childs father was non-existent after she got his signature to bring the boy to Norway. Must be a piece of work this guy, never asking about his son or anything. Maybe that is not so unusual in Russia.

[BC]

OK.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindergeld

Depending on the country, 'kindergeld' or child money paid by the state can be a considerable portion of income.. with two or three kids almost enough to subsidize a house payment.

E125 is on the mid to lower end of the scale for EU.  3 kids in Germany brings in almost 800 bucks a month and in Luxembourg little over 1100 bucks at current exchange rates.  In most cases applies to immigrant families too.  I can imagine a RM feeling that these stipends, when above and beyond his own salary may 'tinge' efforts to contribute.

Sorta like... whadda you want more?

[GoodOlBoy]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindergeld
E125 is on the mid to lower end of the scale for EU.  3 kids in Germany brings in almost 800 bucks a month and in Luxembourg little over 1100 bucks at current exchange rates. 

Just curious The Natural.
Did your Ex know anything about this "free money" for kids deal being offered by the EU countries?

GOB

PS....I would definitely be more careful next time you go hunting.

[The Natural]

Just curious The Natural.
Did your Ex know anything about this "free money" for kids deal being offered by the EU countries?

GOB

PS....I would definitely be more careful next time you go hunting.

No, she didn`t know and it`s no big deal either. The money isn`t much and my ex was not a gold digger or high maintainance, I hope that`s not the conclusion people are left with, after reading my story. She just got too independent, to the point where I kinda faded slowly away. We drifted apart. I remember saying to her that she had changed since I first met her. She absolutely agreed.

But we parted our ways with dignity. No plates were smashed, no skulls were crushed and as you know, we are okay with each other. She is always keen on talking with me when I see her in the shop.

[BC]

Just curious The Natural.
Did your Ex know anything about this "free money" for kids deal being offered by the EU countries?

GOB,

The 'Kindergeld' thing in EU is actually quite good.  Although in cases of divorce both parents have a 'claim' to these funds, most men will relinquish rights if the mother retains primary custody.  The courts also evaluate this financial factor when addressing what the mother will need to support herself and children.  Some countries like Germany have standard tables to calculate what the father should pay to support their children

http://www.online-scheidung-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/duesseldorfer-tabelle.pdf

When my German wife and I divorced, her attorney stated some absurd amount for alimony and I simply replied with a reasonable amount that was above the minimum amounts in the tables. Take it or leave it, as I was self employed, whether or not I worked or sat on the couch was my business.  That was that, no courts or further headaches..  No matter that the mother did 'whatever' with the money I sent every month, the kids involved knew I more than fulfilled my legal commitments on their behalf.  In fact shortly thereafter my son came to live with me instead as the living circumstances at home were not ideal.  As our other children were on their own or close to be, support was dropped altogether in favor of me supporting them through school / 'ausbildung' directly.

We went out to eat sushi last night and spent more than the amount Natural's ex gets for monthly kindergeld.. so no, for a 'knowing' FSUW such is not much of an enticement to give a 'raw deal' on that basis.

Yes, the EU social 'net' does cost.. taxes are quite high but the overall effect does provide a financial buffer to families, whether building one or in demise.

[Aloe]

Aloe, I think "in the very worst case scenario" the debt is shared by both spouses, regardless of whether they have a shared account. It seems to me that when one spouse goes bankrupt, the bank will try to recover at least some money. So a spouse starts acting as a "collateral" unless he's also ready to file for bankruptcy. Maybe western people on this board can correct me or contribute some details.

In our family we have separate accounts, neither of us ever felt like we need to have a joint account. If we need to do some massive expenditure - we discuss it, and decide how much each of us can contribute, and sometimes it may happen that either one will contribute most of it. I really try to keep "accounting" out of my relationship, but I also need to feel how much I am earning and for that I like to have separate aco*snip*. I think my husband feels the same.

I agree with you that if the woman was "saving" money for herself and her son, maybe she saw the end coming  

Natural, you need to understand that she does not know you well enough, and probably in her previous relationship she was in a situation when man left her and she did not have money for herself and her baby. Some experiences are so strong that an individual learns the lesson once and forever.

That's why i said separate accounts AND prenup will keep the court off the other spouses money

So for single mothers, Luxembourg is the place to be   1400 euro a month for 3 kids, that's just unreal

[Aloe]

Yes, the EU social 'net' does cost.. taxes are quite high but the overall effect does provide a financial buffer to families, whether building one or in demise.

I dunno how long this "buffer" will keep up. I hear Belgium has 99% of GNP debts, and that the social system is about to collapse. I'm not surprised, considering any refugee can sue the state and get 500 euro per day per person payments for unlimited time

[SFandEE]

I dunno how long this "buffer" will keep up. I hear Belgium has 99% of GNP debts, and that the social system is about to collapse. I'm not surprised, considering any refugee can sue the state and get 500 euro per day per person payments for unlimited time

Is there such a thing as an American refugee in Belgium?  That is a lovely income for refuging, health benefits too I imagine.  I've been wondering where the American dream is these days, sounds like Belgium.

[Aloe]

Is there such a thing as an American refugee in Belgium?  That is a lovely income for refuging, health benefits too I imagine.  I've been wondering where the American dream is these days, sounds like Belgium.

Indeed, very lovely. I couldn't believe my eyes when i read it in the news. Well the catch is that the state failed to provide them with free housing, so they sued the state (55 of them) and got the court to make the government pay 500 euro per day per person to those people as long as they stay without freelodging. So they live outside in some nice tents in a park. For this kind of money, i think 95% of Belgium's adults would agree to live in tents in a park, and 80% without any tents in a cardboard box under a bridge for sure

[The Natural]

I dunno how long this "buffer" will keep up. I hear Belgium has 99% of GNP debts, and that the social system is about to collapse. I'm not surprised, considering any refugee can sue the state and get 500 euro per day per person payments for unlimited time

You're right Aloe. One of my "hobbies" is to keep myself somewhat informed on what's happening in the world economy. My "sources" say that Belgium is in deep problems as well as several other western countries. We all know about Iceland, Ireland and now next in line, Portugal. But what when very large economies like Spain, Italy, UK fails? Not to mention USA which is doomed to go bankrupt as the police state develops.

Ones perception of western countries like USA is that of a well-run machinery where everything is available and easy to access. But take a look at this video. Taking out a few thousand bucks isn't done in a hurry apparently. What if things really start to act out and there's a bank holiday or a run on banks? I know for sure, when I go for a visit, (not the US) I will bring with me physical cash.

[SFandEE]

But what when very large economies like Spain, Italy, UK fails? Not to mention USA which is doomed to go bankrupt as the police state develops.

Ones perception of western countries like USA is that of a well-run machinery where everything is available and easy to access.

The US has the largest national debt of any country in the world, the spin of % of GDP drops it to #20, with Belgium at #5.  That's only as long as the US produces.  As it consumes more than it produces and outsources production to its' Asian creditors while paying for military actions and contractor projects for our freed friends in the Middle East using debt provided by Asia.  It is hard to imagine how much longer traditional economic policies will confound the masses from the reality of failed US fiscal policy.  #1 Debtor Nation--#1, #1.