Elena's Models.... Are they the "lessor of all evils" in the search?

[dbneeley]

Is it any easier for homosexuals ?  Anyone care to share their experiences ?

According to Woody Allen-- "On bisexuality: It immediately doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night."
(New York Times)
 

[Muzh]

 

[Mike78]

Keep the letters to a min.

Don't go visit the girl, go visit the place and meet the multiple girls your wrote 2 - 4 letters to.

HiTech

Exactly along the lines what I wanted to write. I would also add this; go to a place that you want to visit for reasons other than meeting some women, e.g. tourism for it's own sake, visiting friends/family, business. I would even suggest to buy your ticket before contacting women, in any case, don't contact earlier than 2 months before your visit. Keep your expectations to minimum, you simply don't know a person before you meet her; there might be absolutely no chemistry even if you wrote beautiful letters to each other for months. Line up a lot of girls, even more than you could possibly meet, massive WMVM. Some might flake, so having a big lineup will keep you busy. When you come order girls by how interested you are in them and set up dates in that order. Eventually you will click with one (or several :evil:). Even if you didn't find the love of your life you will be guaranteed to have a good time and you will not feel like the trip was wasted in any case. Remember, you didn't go there to meet girls in the first place so there's no pressure for big expectations...

[Muzh]

Exactly along the lines what I wanted to write. I would also add this; go to a place that you want to visit for reasons other than meeting some women, e.g. tourism for it's own sake, visiting friends/family, business. I would even suggest to buy your ticket before contacting women, in any case, don't contact earlier than 2 months before your visit. Keep your expectations to minimum, you simply don't know a person before you meet her; there might be absolutely no chemistry even if you wrote beautiful letters to each other for months. Line up a lot of girls, even more than you could possibly meet, massive WMVM. Some might flake, so having a big lineup will keep you busy. When you come order girls by how interested you are in them and set up dates in that order. Eventually you will click with one (or several :evil:). Even if you didn't find the love of your life you will be guaranteed to have a good time and you will not feel like the trip was wasted in any case. Remember, you didn't go there to meet girls in the first place so there's no pressure for big expectations...

A trip to Vegas would be cheaper, don't you think?

[Aloe]

Aloe, this is a great post and certainly explain much about how complicated these initial stages can be.

Now, I would like to present you with a similar scenario based on what you said below,

A man "meets" a RW and comunicate for 2 or 3 times and he goes and visits. Turns out that the girl has no intentions of leaving her country and just wants to have a good time.

It hurts and after the disappointment tries again and this time he takes a litttle longer to get to know her. This time she takes him for a ride by selling him all this sad stories and eventually he sends her money while she has no intention to be with this guy.

Notice that the similarity here is the inability to recognize the "player."

I was reading one of the RW forums and a specific woman's experience stayed with me. Based on her letters and conversations with her beau, you could tell he was just playing her, big time. At least I saw it a mile away. Even some Russian femmes tried to tell her to be cautious. To compund the issue the woman knew in her gut that there was something not kosher. BUT, "he writes beautiful things, you should listen to him, he is opening his soul to me, yadda, yadda." It was sad watching this train wreck. Just as it is sad watching it here.

So what's the solution? Go as soon as possible? "Ha, she's a GTG." Write for an extended period of time? "Ha, he's a keyboard romeo."

Or trust your instincts and hope for the best?

Anyone here with the answer please spill it out?

I think when a man looks for a woman on a website like EM, his chances of encountering a serious woman are many many many MANY times higher than for a woman to encounter a serious man.
 
And how exactly do you recognize the player? Say you correspond/chat with a man, he says the fastest he can visit is in 8 months, because he only gets 2 weeks vacation a year, meanwhile you keep talking and waiting.. Then it is 8 months later, and he says sorry, work is so crazy right now, i hate that it's keeping me away from you like this, i know we had an agreement, but i just can't leave right now. I can come 4 months later. So the woman gives him the benifit of the doubt, and they keep talking. Then it's 4 months later and suddenly his mom is sick, he can't leave, let's reschedule for the summer, it's gonna be so beautiful there in the summer! I bet it's a lot better than the winter. (you know she is feeling connected to this man because of how they talk about everything in the world and because they have tons of fun together, and he seems serious because he has researched everything, even all the tiniest little details and discussed it with her and they made a lot of plans) So she thinks, well, coincidences happen, his mom may be really sick, again she gives him the benefit of the doubt, then come summer and he finds another reason why he can't come right now, but he will come later for sure!!! That's when you lose hope. Meanwhile it's already been 1.5 YEARS. And because she felt she found her soulmate she was not talking to anybody else in the mean time. What a waste of time and emotions.
How exactly do you recognize he is a player? He is a real person, you have a great time talking and laughing together, he discusses things with you and you make plans together and everything, it's all great. That time when he had to postpone the trip, unexpected circumstances could happen to anyone. Are you saying it's stupid to trust a person and you should always be suspicious and call him a player right off the bat, and kick him to the curb? Cuz the only reason to think he is a player is because he postponed the trip. That is THE only thing. And that is what the women on women's forum tell you, if he postponed the trip for any reason, drop him like a hot potato, he is a romeo. That is absolutely the only way to know he is a player, because for everything else he seems really serious.
I talked to one guy on skype with video/voice several hours every day for 10 months, he introduced me to his brother over webcam, and he gave me his credit card and paypal info so i could buy stuff online. It is hard to not trust someone who seems to have such great trust in you that he would give you his credit card info (and introduce to family). And he is telling you all about how he will visit in a few months. How in the world would you figure out he is a player? Only because he postponed the trip. And then he postponed it again and again. That's the only way to know. So don't give me this "recognize the player", you can't recognize him unless he postpones the trip, that's all. And for a normal human being (who is new at international dating), there is absolutely no reason to get all suspiscious and distrustful just because someone postponed a trip once, cuz all kinds of things happen in life and it's normal to give someone benefit of the doubt. Only later when you find out that there are vast majority of romeos out there and only a very small group of men who are actually serious, that's when you stop wasting time writing a long long time (or writing to only one person). Because unless the man visits, he is extremely likely to be just another romeo.



The romeo scenario happens to almost every single serious woman in this search(unless she gets very lucky very fast). There are several factors at play there.
1. She is new at internet dating, so she is putting a lot of time into this communication and develops some attachment to this guy because he seems so perfect for her. Because she is inexperienced it doesn't cross her mind that in spite of great online chemistry, there may be no chemistry whatsoever in real life.
2. She is new at international internet dating, she doesn't know it's full of romeos, so she is giving this man benefit of the doubt when he says he can't come right now because of something unexpected, but he will definitely come later.
3. She is new at internet dating, so she allows herself to develop attachment to a guy she has never met. That makes it hard to let it go, and puts some women in denial even when the truth is becoming painfully obvious.
4. The guy says all the right things, he makes elaborate plans that make him seem serious, he projects a beautiful picture of your future family and uses all your dreams and desires to entrap you.

Some women are very lucky and their first guy actually shows up and they go on living happily ever after But vast majority of women deal with a romeo when they first come into this international dating thing. It's very painful.

[GoodOlBoy]

Cuz the only reason to think he is a player is because he postponed the trip. That is THE only thing. And that is what the women on women's forum tell you, if he postponed the trip for any reason, drop him like a hot potato, he is a romeo.

And no truer words have ever been spoken by a RW.
GOB has said this before, don't make promises to a RW you cannot keep.
RW will not tolerate BS.


GOB

[Ade]

I would have visited my wife within a month but I had to say;

... sorry, work is so crazy right now, i hate that it's keeping me away from you like this, ... but i just can't leave right now.

And it was. So it happens, but it really is a very good lie to use if a man is never planning on visiting. It turns out that I made the trip almost 2 months to the day of our first email exchange but I can see how this must have raised a flag or two on her side.

And that is what the women on women's forum tell you, if he postponed the trip for any reason, drop him like a hot potato, he is a romeo.

If I were a RW, I would give a European guy 4 months max to visit. And an American guy, no more than 6. Any longer or excuses and I would drop them...

[Kuna]

Exactly along the lines what I wanted to write. I would also add this; go to a place that you want to visit for reasons other than meeting some women, e.g. tourism for it's own sake, visiting friends/family, business. I would even suggest to buy your ticket before contacting women, in any case, don't contact earlier than 2 months before your visit. Keep your expectations to minimum, you simply don't know a person before you meet her; there might be absolutely no chemistry even if you wrote beautiful letters to each other for months. Line up a lot of girls, even more than you could possibly meet, massive WMVM. Some might flake, so having a big lineup will keep you busy. When you come order girls by how interested you are in them and set up dates in that order. Eventually you will click with one (or several :evil:). Even if you didn't find the love of your life you will be guaranteed to have a good time and you will not feel like the trip was wasted in any case. Remember, you didn't go there to meet girls in the first place so there's no pressure for big expectations...

This is dumb advice!

You've been to FSU or not???  It sounds like you've been reading a lot on this forum and developed a plan that you think makes sense...  but it's not as easy as that.

Close..  but not even close.

Suggest you do a couple of trips like this and see how many girls drop out before you even get to meet them... and if the search is anything like it was when I was checking out the dating sites there weren't "dozens" of girls in any one city I would have visited.

If you are indiscriminate in who you want to meet.. you might find lots more to contact...  but then you're just turning it into a scatter gun approach.

High risk... waste of time... waste of money...  waste of potential.

[dbneeley]

This is dumb advice!

You've been to FSU or not???  It sounds like you've been reading a lot on this forum and developed a plan that you think makes sense...  but it's not as easy as that.

Oh, come on Kuna--why don't you tell us how you really feel?   

What I'd like to know from Mike is "And how's that working out for you?"

I don't know why it is so difficult for many to understand that there are different personalities involved, so of course there are methods that are more comfortable than others for any given person.

Mike's suggested method is fine--if all you want is a superficial meeting with as many women as you can. He also seems focused on trying to make everything easy rather than doing the work that is often required for the best possible results.

Although you could wind up incredibly lucky, that is not the way to bet in my estimation. For such an important step, doing sufficient work in front is often extremely helpful.

As I have stated elsewhere, in reading "advice" like Mike's I can't help but recall the similar and often-repeated advice by "Frank" on several email discussion lists. Using essentially this same approach, it only took him a decade with eight or more extended trips to the FSU to find his wife--and meanwhile he seems to have dropped off the face of the known universe, so I have no idea how well that worked for him (if he was even married--he never mentioned anything about her, not even her first name, so I do have my doubts).

For any newcomers, then, I think it would be very good to inquire as to how many people taking this approach were successful with it, especially compared to others who have used different methods.

In my own case, I happened to have been incredibly lucky. In that case, the rules and expectations go out the window for the most part. However, I was also incredibly surprised by the whole thing.

David

[LAman]

The romeo scenario happens to almost every single serious woman in this search(unless she gets very lucky very fast). There are several factors at play there.
1. She is new at internet dating, so she is putting a lot of time into this communication and develops some attachment to this guy because he seems so perfect for her. Because she is inexperienced it doesn't cross her mind that in spite of great online chemistry, there may be no chemistry whatsoever in real life.
2. She is new at international internet dating, she doesn't know it's full of romeos, so she is giving this man benefit of the doubt when he says he can't come right now because of something unexpected, but he will definitely come later.
3. She is new at internet dating, so she allows herself to develop attachment to a guy she has never met. That makes it hard to let it go, and puts some women in denial even when the truth is becoming painfully obvious.
4. The guy says all the right things, he makes elaborate plans that make him seem serious, he projects a beautiful picture of your future family and uses all your dreams and desires to entrap you.

Some women are very lucky and their first guy actually shows up and they go on living happily ever after But vast majority of women deal with a romeo when they first come into this international dating thing. It's very painful.

Hmmm Aloe, I don't how likely your scenerio happens but I have heard talk of less than 10% of men actually visit. This girl in your scenerio sounds like she does not have many other interests from men. I think on both sides, the LONELY make terrible decisions.
Your description probably happens more often with personal contacts and NO money involved. Guy could talk to many, many girls just like you described and it will cost him only some time. If he is paying some kind of $$, will he be likely to continue for 1.5 years and waste girls time?
This is interesting to me because I never looked at this from your position. I have usually spoke to girl only several months before visiting because I feel it is most important for face to face meeting. And during our letter process, I have described the areas I have visited along with some pics, even at times of her city, to show my seriousness of actually meeting. Some are surprised I have been in their country several times......and yes they always ask if I have met other girls before.

[Aloe]

Hmmm Aloe, I don't how likely your scenerio happens but I have heard talk of less than 10% of men actually visit.

And where do you think the women get these numbers? From their own experience of course. What does that tell us? That she has talked to a few men who she wanted to visit, but they never came. So it is confirming what i said about most women having to deal with romeos and that vast majority of men in this search are romeos.

This girl in your scenerio sounds like she does not have many other interests from men. I think on both sides, the LONELY make terrible decisions.

What's wrong with devoting a couple hours a day to someone who you think is a great match for you? Getting to know each other and having fun talking sounds like a waste of time and lack of other interests to you?

Your description probably happens more often with personal contacts and NO money involved. Guy could talk to many, many girls just like you described and it will cost him only some time. If he is paying some kind of $$, will he be likely to continue for 1.5 years and waste girls time?

What kind of crazy woman would be vacuuming the wallet of a man she is seriously interested in? No serious woman is gonna sit on a site where she knows a man has to pay for every letter he sent her. And if she may end up there by accident, i'd imagine she will try to make it free as soon as possible. Because... What kind of crazy woman would be vacuuming the wallet of a man she is seriously interested in?

And during our letter process, I have described the areas I have visited along with some pics, even at times of her city, to show my seriousness of actually meeting. Some are surprised I have been in their country several times......and yes they always ask if I have met other girls before.

Many women will regard it as a negative that you have already been to their country, especially if its multiple times. Who knows what you are up to there, maybe you don't even wanna get married since you've been to the country so many times already, maybe you are a tourist. Maybe not, but still multiple trips means that you have dated so many girls already. The more girls you date, the more slutty and inconsistent you are in the eyes of a woman. It may work towards showing that you are more likely to visit than an average romeo, but dating so many women does not rub off nicely on your image of a serious man either.

[The Natural]

I'm new to this but already I see a pattern with the women who decide to contact me. They give me their e-mail adress at once and many say they don't want endless e-mail correspondence. One has told me, when I asked her specifically about it, that most men seems NOT to be serious to meet within a reasonable period of time.

Men here who are searching are advised to listen to Aloe because she knows what she's talking about. She is young yes, but she offers gold nuggets of advise here and I appreciate her very much for that.

[Misha]

What kind of crazy woman would be vacuuming the wallet of a man she is seriously interested in? No serious woman is gonna sit on a site where she knows a man has to pay for every letter he sent her. And if she may end up there by accident, i'd imagine she will try to make it free as soon as possible.

Aloe, I have to say that it is always refreshing to read your posts 

[Jack]

I'm new to this but already I see a pattern with the women who decide to contact me. They give me their e-mail adress at once and many say they don't want endless e-mail correspondence. One has told me, when I asked her specifically about it, that most men seems NOT to be serious to meet within a reasonable period of time.

Men here who are searching are advised to listen to Aloe because she knows what she's talking about. She is young yes, but she offers gold nuggets of advise here and I appreciate her very much for that.

hey Natural, as I mentioned earlier in this same thread, I have heard the same thing over and over and over again from Rus/Ukr women.   As I am in the business I have to deal with the norm's, not the excpetions.   Please realize that your going to hear other views from men who are going to tell you how they did it and of course this is the method they would recommend.  A good example will be I/O and Muzh.  Their ladies were two who preferred to write the man for 10 months before meeting. And I will say again, they are the exception, NOT today's norm when it comes to Rus/Ukr women.

[GoodOlBoy]

A good example will be I/O and Muzh. Their ladies were two who preferred to write the man for 10 months before meeting.

GOB for one, would be curious to hear from these ladies if they really "preferred" to write for this extended period of time (10 months to one man) or if they would have rather met their perspective hubbies earlier?

To me, this sounds like an anomaly.

GOB

[The Natural]

hey Natural, as I mentioned earlier in this same thread, I have heard the same thing over and over and over again from Rus/Ukr women.   As I am in the business I have to deal with the norm's, not the excpetions.   Please realize that your going to hear other views from men who are going to tell you how they did it and of course this is the method they would recommend.  A good example will be I/O and Muzh.  Their ladies were two who preferred to write the man for 10 months before meeting. And I will say again, they are the exception, NOT today's norm when it comes to Rus/Ukr women.

Yes Jack, as I understand it, you have years of experience and have seen how things work.
By the way, are you the go-to guy for arranging to rent an apartment in Kiev? I will go to the Crimea in June and are trying to get some dialogue with a few women in Kiev before going south. It is also a great city to visit anyway as a tourist I'm told.

[dogspot]

GOB for one, would be curious to hear from these ladies if they really "preferred" to write for this extended period of time (10 months to one man) or if they would have rather met their perspective hubbies earlier?

To me, this sounds like an anomaly.

GOB

You can add my lady to the list. She was adament about not meeting until we had set a solid foundation via emails and letters. We went nearly 15 months before our first meeting. She had correspondence with another fella before me that lasted around 6 months and ended because the chap didn't want to waste his time. I was patient and my patience paid off - now I am engaged to the most amazing woman on earth.

[dbneeley]

- now I am engaged to the most amazing woman on earth.

Congrats on the engagement!

I must say, though, that she cannot be higher than the second most amazing--I took the most amazing one off the market nine years ago!   

David

[The Natural]

I must say, though, that she cannot be higher than the second most amazing--I took the most amazing one off the market nine years ago!   

Maybe so, but I bet dogspot have a better car 

[I/O]

Their ladies were two who preferred to write the man for 10 months before meeting.

Prepared to might be a better description than preferred but again, I never struck anyone (and believe me, there were more than a handful over time) worth meeting who wasn't prepared to wait a while.

And I will say again, they are the exception, NOT today's norm when it comes to Rus/Ukr women.

Women who want to meet a foreign man immediately are not the "norm" either, not by a long chalk, the "norm" among FSUW aren't the slightest bit interested in chasing foreign men now or later.

[Jack]

Women who want to meet a foreign man immediately are not the "norm" either, not by a long chalk, the "norm" among FSUW aren't the slightest bit interested in chasing foreign men now or later.

Yes, by quite a long shot I/O.    I/O  it's quite evident YOU do not know what you are talking about.  Women, again, the great majority of women, their will always be exceptions, such as your case, today's Rus/Ukr women want to meet a man within a few months, NOT 10 months, NOT 12 months. IT IS the norm today. Sorry to bust your yester-year of thinking I/O.

[GoodOlBoy]

GOB has read on RWD over and over again from the "seasoned" veterans that AM should date and behave in the FSU the same as they would locally.

And I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Obviously dating in the FSU has some constraints for AM (you can't drive your car to Olga's house in Omsk ), BUT....does anyone actually believe that you could write a woman here in the GoodOl' USA on Match.com (or some other site) for 10 months or a year and make no attempt to meet her in person?? 

Sorry, but I don't think so.

GOB

[Gator]

Everyone is different.  This is my experience over the years with direct correspondence (not via an agency) for RW in the age range of 30 to upper 40s:

-  Many RW have more than one man in the correspondence pipeline.  They will be more patient about meeting vs. those in the WOVO mindset.

-  RW with weak English skills will tend to write for a longer period, albeit the letters are brief.   Some may do it just to improve their English.  

-  Those with good English skills will want to talk on the telephone.    If a RW enjoys writing, she will supplement the talks with a few detailed letters.   If the man and woman continue to find each other interesting, the communication will become more and more personal, engaging and revealing.  A meeting is the next logical step, so the reasons for delaying a meeting must be compelling.

-  If the communication is only about "What is the temperature outside?" and the like, the man and/or woman will become bored.  She may push for a meeting simply to conclude it one way or the other.

-  Meanwhile, many of these RW are not sitting home lonely, so they are "prepared" to be patient and see what develops as long as the correspondence is not boring.  

-  Nevertheless, there are some RW who have sworn not to date RM and are dedicated to finding a Western man.  This group of RW will advance correspondence and will push for an early meeting.

[Vaughn]

BUT....does anyone actually believe that you could write a woman here in the GoodOl' USA on Match.com (or some other site) for 10 months or a year and make no attempt to meet her in person??

Heel draggers generally will lose the lady's interest, both here and there. We wrote for 5 months prior
to meeting and that was pushing it - for both of us. Others' mileage may vary, but I believe that as
correspondence drags on, the chances of disinterest - increases, even if the exchanges be revealing
and interesting, and despite the assignment of Write One / Write Many to the lady. The women overseas
know the chances of an internet suitor being a keyboard Romeo are close to 90% ~ that estimate hasn't
changed drastically in 10 years.

[Muzh]

I think when a man looks for a woman on a website like EM, his chances of encountering a serious woman are many many many MANY times higher than for a woman to encounter a serious man.

Agree 100%.

And how exactly do you recognize the player?
<snip>

He is a real person, you have a great time talking and laughing together, he discusses things with you and you make plans together and everything, it's all great.

Sadly, this is part of this journey.

Are you saying it's stupid to trust a person and you should always be suspicious and call him a player right off the bat, and kick him to the curb?

Never said that. And I think it would be a big mistake starting a relationship based on mistrust. That is the risk BOTH have to take. There are no guarantees.

Cuz the only reason to think he is a player is because he postponed the trip. That is THE only thing. And that is what the women on women's forum tell you, if he postponed the trip for any reason, drop him like a hot potato, he is a romeo. That is absolutely the only way to know he is a player, because for everything else he seems really serious.

I can tell you that is true in the majority of cases. AND if it is not, then HE should KNOW before hand that he can do this. Either way, the ball is in his court and he dropped it.

I talked to one guy on skype with video/voice several hours every day for 10 months, he introduced me to his brother over webcam, and he gave me his credit card and paypal info so i could buy stuff online. It is hard to not trust someone who seems to have such great trust in you that he would give you his credit card info (and introduce to family). And he is telling you all about how he will visit in a few months. How in the world would you figure out he is a player? Only because he postponed the trip. And then he postponed it again and again. That's the only way to know. So don't give me this "recognize the player", you can't recognize him unless he postpones the trip, that's all.

Allow me to clarify that I did not said either party was at fault. I only stated what you just described, an inability to recognize the player. This is what happens when you are 1000s of mile away.

Some women are very lucky and their first guy actually shows up and they go on living happily ever after But vast majority of women deal with a romeo when they first come into this international dating thing. It's very painful.

Aloe, I agree with everything you wrote, I was not questioning your experiences. I just posted the other possible side of the coin. I have met a number of guys around here who have mentioned internet daiting, local and international. There are quite a few that I KNOW are players by what their expectations are. It is unfortunate. As a matter of fact I know one who asked me if I knew any RW interested in a relationship. I plainly said no. Why? He got tired of S. America and now he is expanding his horizons.