Differing Money Mentalities

[ML]

These posts are moved out of Natural's thread so as to not pollute his thread.

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Quote from: Nat on March 22, 2011, 06:07:05 AM

The matter is that the mentality of Northern countries and FSU differs dramatically in terms of family economics, and what is considered to be not only totally accepted, but absolutely normal in Northern countries is a huge turn off and nearly an insult in FSU. The perception of money issues is absolutely different.

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ManLooking

But what about the seemingly vast differences of practices regarding spending on necessities vs frivolous?  And, of course, frivolous is in the eye of the beholder.

For instance, let me tell of a couple of stories I am personally acquainted with regarding two different women.

First one earns virtually squat and barely has enough to eat.  Yet when her German boyfriend gave her $800 for food, etc., she spent the entire amount on a new sheepskin winter coat.

Second one also just barely existed financially for many years, but is now earning pretty good money for mid sized Russian city.  Around $800 a month I believe.  And she sometimes has second job to stockpile some money.  She has accumulated about $6,000.  Now her German boyfriend (not same German) finds out she is going to shell out nearly $4,000 of that on wedding for her son.  He has gone ballistic and will probably bail because he now doubts her sound judgement and worries what would happen with family money after he married her.

These are just two stories that I have heard recently; but they sent home for me this vast chasm that exists between what westerners and FSU folk will do with their 'spare' or 'not so spare' money .

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Aloe

First woman is probably used to living the way she is, so more food isn't gonna make her as happy as a fur coat. She just wanted to get something nice she would never get otherwise. It is a nice feeling to get something nice.

I see nothing wrong in second woman's behavior. Her son's wedding is a big deal, and supposedly a once in a lifetime event. She can always make more money, but he will supposedly only have a wedding once.

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Daveman

This is rather common.  I certainly don't have experience with all FSU women, but enough to see that this is pretty much a pattern. I/O described it well with a quote from a Russian guy some years ago...

Quote from: I/O on August 04, 2008, 09:03:41 AM

"RW, in my experience are frugal with relatively small amounts of money, but in the early stages of adaption often (not all) don't know much about dealing with larger sums. A Russian guy told me 5 years ago (In Russia), give a RW $1 and she will care for you for a week. Give her $1000 and it will be gone in a week. IMO he wasn't entirely stupid."


That above is pretty much spot on from what I've seen...

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Aloe

That's because 1k is too little money. Give her 10k and she will put it in the bank and not spend any Cheesy It's a psychological phenomenon that manifests itself in many areas. Like in dating, scientists found out that when a candidate is suddenly provided with a huge choice, he/she is a lot more likely to stay single than if he/she had a small choice. Same with money, you suddenly get 10k and there are so many things you want, that you won't be able to pick one and end up not picking any Cheesy I am experiencing this as we speak, i can't decide what the hell to spend it on, cuz there is a gigantic choice of too many things that i want and can suddenly afford, and i want them all, so i can't pick one  Roll Floor Laugh

But when i'm given only 1k, then i have no problem spending it. See, if you give too little, it's easy to spend, but if it is sudden and a lot, but not enough to buy everything you want, then you probably won't buy anything at all Tongue

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Daveman

And there's another aspect... money *will* flow to the children, and especially so from mother to "son".   

The stuff about "our money" and "my money" is confusing.  The ladies here seem to have a more normal attitude... but here is what I have seen the most.. the money the man makes is "our money", the money the woman makes is "her money". It's the man's job to provide for the family in *every* way - cars, house, clothes, food, make-up, etc.. and it's the woman's job to take care of the house and family he pays for, while the money she earns is for herself (to pack away to give to children, or buy more clothes, whatever).

Not saying *every* RW has this attitude, but from my experience this is quite accurate.  If you find someone who wants to contribute to the family, i.e., all money is equally "our money", then you've found someone with a special attitude.

of course this really doesn't answer your question in detail... more of the married (for a while) guys would need to chime in.

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Speedbump

This topic of the concept of money is really interesting to me.

I can add one story too. A Russian woman learns she is lossing her well paid job in Moscow. SHe says the economy is really bad and she does not know if she can find a job let alone a job that pays nearly as well.

So she decides to go on a trip and buy a new Ipad and a ton of clothes. Wall Bash

That type of fatalistic thinking baffles me.

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Aloe

Indeed that sounds very stupid, she probably lives with her parents and has nothing to worry about? Otherwise i don't see how an adult person can go and waste all their money after being fired and no new income. Who is gonna pay the rent and food then? Maybe she has some other income except her job. Or maybe she has 100k in the bank, then nothing wrong with doing whatever you want and spending as long as you have the money to live for the next couple of years. I'd say 1.5k a month, if she rents, so that's 36k for 2 years, so still 64k to spend freely Tongue Or if she knows she will be unemployed for say a year maximum, then it's even more available to spend. In any case, this woman sounds like she is fine.
Say someone has 10 million dollars in the bank, but they are losing their job and don't know if they will ever get a job that pays this well. It doesn't mean they can't go and spend the money that's in their bank, if they know they have a lot more than they actually need to pay for basic expenses, nothing wrong with spending then. You need to know the full situation before making such judgements. I doubt this woman sent you her bank statements and tax papers.

[Misha]

Second one also just barely existed financially for many years, but is now earning pretty good money for mid sized Russian city.  Around $800 a month I believe.  And she sometimes has second job to stockpile some money.  She has accumulated about $6,000.  Now her German boyfriend (not same German) finds out she is going to shell out nearly $4,000 of that on wedding for her son.  He has gone ballistic and will probably bail because he now doubts her sound judgement and worries what would happen with family money after he married her.

Honestly, the German fellow is being quite foolish IMHO. Here you have a woman who took a second job and managed to save $6,000 and he is worried what will happen with the family money after he marries her?!? This a woman who is clearly capable of being frugal and saving money to achieve her goal, in this case paying for her son's wedding. This is the kind of woman you should seek to marry IMHO, as opposed to a woman looking for a sugar daddy who won't work extra and won't be able to save any money for anything 

[ML]

Misha, you make some good points.  Whether they are valid for this situation or any situation depends on . . . the situation !!  

But, let's pursue this a bit.

As I understood it; the woman was not saving for her son's wedding.  That situation came 'out of the blue' and quite unexpectedly.

She, like most  of us, was trying to save for the future, to buy an apartment, buy furniture, save for retirement, etc., etc.

So to me, and the German man, it would be a question of proportionate spending.

For this instance, when the family fortune is a grand total of $6,000;
should $4,000 be spent on a wedding or anything else of a non-tangible, non-income producing nature?

In my mind (just to throw out some numbers), $4,000 should be spent on a wedding by a family earning maybe $60,000 plus a year, with a retirement portfolio of $400,000 plus, and a safety fund in cash equivalents of $20,000 plus or so.

Thus, this is my point for discussion.  i.e. The idea of what various cultures will spend proportionately on various items relative to their income and net worth.

I am sure that many of the married men here have come face to face with these situations.  How were the situations solved . . . or not solved?

[Lily]

Honestly, the German fellow is being quite foolish IMHO. Here you have a woman who took a second job and managed to save $6,000 and he is worried what will happen with the family money after he marries her?!? This a woman who is clearly capable of being frugal and saving money to achieve her goal, in this case paying for her son's wedding. This is the kind of woman you should seek to marry IMHO, as opposed to a woman looking for a sugar daddy who won't work extra and won't be able to save any money for anything  

About the case with mother giving all her money for her son's wedding, I agree with Misha that this may be the good type of women to look for.

On the point however, this case is an illustration of how the parents may be sometimes perceived by Russian society as providers for their children, even when they are adults. Sometimes, the mature Russians are judged on the basis how good can they provide for their adult children. I use the word 'sometimes' to illustrate that this is, luckily, not an overwhelming prejudice, and tends to be seen in poorer and less educated circles mostly. Parents, especially mothers, are determined to give everything to their children. They take even a sacrifice position, not taking into account their own needs, to the extent that they believe that they exist only for and because of their children. Personally I don't approve this type of thinking, but it still exists in Russia.

Other than that, as ManLooking wrote, an issue about being judged by other people may come here in question. The mother may have thought that others may think of her as of a somehow inferior' mother, who fails to understand her motherly duties, which are as above, to provide for children. Or, at the same time, she may have wanted to conceal her poverty from friends and neighbours, trying to show that her life is not worse than that of others. Also a pretty viable mentality in Russia, but again, among those less advantageous.

About the first case with the girl who received money for food but spent it for a winter coat - what is strange in your opinion? Food and other current expenses come and go, but a winter coat would rather be something of a 'capital' investment which should keep her warm in winter for several years.  Do you really believe that she should spend them on food? or did I overlooked something?

[ML]

About the first case with the girl who received money for food but spent it for a winter coat - what is strange in your opinion? Food and other current expenses come and go, but a winter coat would rather be something of a 'capital' investment which should keep her warm in winter for several years.  Do you really believe that she should spend them on food? or did I overlooked something?

Well Lily, there is a lot strange.

Let's assume that a friend of yours tells you that she badly needs you to give her $800 so she can get her teeth fixed.  And she indeed does need her teeth fixed.

But then you learn that she spent the $800 on a fur coat.

Now what is your answer?

[Lily]

Then my answer would be that the money should be used on teeth, as this is obviously an issue of more weight than winter clothes. You are right, there is a difference.

In the above example however, if I correctly remember, the giver targeted the money to be 'for food, etc'. Therefore no compelling reasons like teeth renewal.

[ML]

The man judged that she was not eating the best of diets because of lack of money.
Thus, he viewed the purchase of better food to be just as necessary as something like getting teeth fixed.

And another point Lily.  A person can stay just as warm (and for as many winters) in a $79 well insulated coat as in an $800 coat or even a $30,000 coat.

Let's not mix in warmth and durability with pure vanity.   

[ML]

About the case with mother giving all her money for her son's wedding, I agree with Misha that this may be the good type of women to look for.

Lily, you and Misha are combining two things here.

1. The woman is able to save money.
2. What the woman chose to spend this money on.

Yes, I  agree that finding a woman able to save this money is a good thing.  This is point 1.

What is your opinion about point 2; . . . however I think you have already given your opinion about point 2.

[ML]

On the point however, this case is an illustration of how the parents may be sometimes perceived by Russian society as providers for their children, even when they are adults. Sometimes, the mature Russians are judged on the basis how good can they provide for their adult children. I use the word 'sometimes' to illustrate that this is, luckily, not an overwhelming prejudice, and tends to be seen in poorer and less educated circles mostly. Parents, especially mothers, are determined to give everything to their children. They take even a sacrifice position, not taking into account their own needs, to the extent that they believe that they exist only for and because of their children. Personally I don't approve this type of thinking, but it still exists in Russia.

Other than that, as ManLooking wrote, an issue about being judged by other people may come here in question. The mother may have thought that others may think of her as of a somehow inferior' mother, who fails to understand her motherly duties, which are as above, to provide for children. Or, at the same time, she may have wanted to conceal her poverty from friends and neighbours, trying to show that her life is not worse than that of others. Also a pretty viable mentality in Russia, but again, among those less advantageous.

Thanks for these illustrative words Lily.

Now on to the point.  Should a western man run quickly from such a woman?

Follow the logic here. 

She is willing to spend $4,000 of her $6,000 fortune on her child's wedding.

But she has another existing child also.  She marries a WM and learns that he has an investment portfolio of $900,000.

Now her second child is about to be married . . . . .

[Lily]

Thanks for these illustrative words Lily.

Now on to the point.  Should a western man run quickly from such a woman?

Follow the logic here. 

She is willing to spend $4,000 of her $6,000 fortune on her child's wedding.

But she has another existing child also.  She marries a WM and learns that he has an investment portfolio of $900,000.

Now her second child is about to be married . . . . .

This would be some different situation. The issue here would be whether this woman believes her new husbands' money to be her money. She may, or may not be of this opinion. Eventually, I figure, as soon as her new husband is not the father of her other child, she may rather not think this way.

The story may be slightly different, in the woman's regard, if the rich Westerner would be the biological father of her child. However, even in this case she may take into account differences in spending money recklessly on children, because Western and Russian parents tend to be very different about being providers for their adult and pretty well able children.
 
I can imagine some of my Russian acquaintances who would take exactly the same course of spending if there would be about their own money, which she saved by herself. But some may be of the belief that the husbands' savings are out of reach for the new wife who has not contributed to them in any way.

The man judged that she was not eating the best of diets because of lack of money.
Thus, he viewed the purchase of better food to be just as necessary as something like getting teeth fixed.

And another point Lily.  A person can stay just as warm (and for as many winters) in a $79 well insulated coat as in an $800 coat or even a $30,000 coat.

Let's not mix in warmth and durability with pure vanity.   

As some of our women members already wrote, vanity would be a bad word to signify a pleasure of feeling great in a beautiful and warm coat. Which may be a contributor to her well being as such

The issue of under-eating would be to some extent different and Russia-specific. The woman may sincerely believe that their eating is okay, at least they used to eat this way all their life. In fact, thousands of people used to eat even worse than that for decades.

Also, on a personal note, I doubt very much that a Russian ordinary diet is that bad. It may lack calories, but guys, looking at Russian bodies, do you really think that this is no good??

[pitbull]

Thanks for these illustrative words Lily.

Now on to the point.  Should a western man run quickly from such a woman?

Follow the logic here. 

She is willing to spend $4,000 of her $6,000 fortune on her child's wedding.

But she has another existing child also.  She marries a WM and learns that he has an investment portfolio of $900,000.

Now her second child is about to be married . . . . .

Nope Man looking, this is a highly unlikely scenario in MOB business.

In reality it turns out that the trips to visit her and the ring were bought on credit card, the man has thousands of dollars in credit card debt, a mortgage, car payments (yeah, and he told her he "owns" two cars and a house) and hardly anything in 401K. Oh yes, and child support payments too. The woman has to start wiping old folks' butts for meager money right away, for the "rich american husband" cannot afford to buy her a car, or quite often a health insurance.

Seriously, do you think that the 2008 housing bubble disaster was caused by American's exceptional frugality, reasonables with finances and perfect understanding of what size house they should be able to afford proportionately to their income?

[ML]

Pitbull, not saying that the scenario you described does not exist . . . .

but please respond to the scenario that I have described.

Prove that Lily is not the  only female here who can discuss issues logically and stay on point.   

[Misha]

On the point however, this case is an illustration of how the parents may be sometimes perceived by Russian society as providers for their children, even when they are adults.

Lily, in North America, parents will generally pay for their children's wedding, especially the first when they are still relatively young, i.e. not in their late thirties  They will spend in the tends of thousands.

[Misha]

She is willing to spend $4,000 of her $6,000 fortune on her child's wedding.

Her fortune? She is a woman who saved to pay for her son's wedding. How exactly is that a bad thing ?!? She even had $2,000 left over  :noidea: She should be commended IMHO not berated.

[ML]

Misha, please provide some dollars spent  on weddings along with the incomes and net worth of parents . . . as you have knowledge of.  And specify if you think your relative numbers are common or uncommon across North America.

[Misha]

Misha, please provide some dollars spent  on weddings along with the incomes and net worth of parents . . . as you have knowledge of.  And specify if you think your relative numbers are common or uncommon across North America.

Let's see, according to Wikipedia: "The average cost of a wedding in the United State in 2010 is approximately $24,070; which is significantly less than the average wedding of 2007 ($28,730)." and "The average wage of an American in 2007 according to the US government was $40,405.48 a year."

This means that the average weddings in 2007 represented roughly 70% of an average salary. The woman, according to you, earns roughly $800 a month or roughly $9,600. She spent less than half of her annual salary which is less than the American average 

[ML]

Thanks  for the input Misha.

However, a few points are in order.

First, I don't really believe the data; not you, the data.

Second, in USA I believe that most of the wedding costs are borne by the bride and groom, not their parents.

In my specific case; my wife and I paid entirely for our own wedding.
The wedding was very nice in a church with cake and punch, and cost less than $200.

And we paid exactly zero for the wedding of our children.
We offered, even knowing that no monies would be accepted.
In each case, the weddings were very nice, in churches with cake and punch, and cost less than $800 within the last 5 years.
Beautiful service, beautiful pictures, beautiful memories equal to those of a $100,000 wedding.

Instead of money for wedding; we purchased furniture for houses, gave money toward 401K retirement plans, and set up trust funds for the education of future grand children.

The situation I described for myself and my children is mirrored by that of most of my friends.

[ML]

Her fortune? She is a woman who saved to pay for her son's wedding. How exactly is that a bad thing ?!? She even had $2,000 left over  :noidea: She should be commended IMHO not berated.

Misha, why do you persist in this vein.  I already rebutted your statement regarding what she intended to do with her savings in my reply to your first post in this thread.

[Misha]

Second, in USA I believe that most of the wedding costs are borne by the bride and groom, not their parents.

The situation I described for myself and my children is mirrored by that of most of my friends.

Clearly, you and your friends are the exceptions. Here are some stats: http://www.bridalassociationofamerica.com/Wedding_Statistics/

According to this source, the average cost of a wedding in 2009: $30,860

Who pays: Brides Parents 58%; Grooms Parents    32%; Bride & Groom    77%. Unfortunately, they do not specify how much parents pay as opposed to the bride & groom. However, given that the average age for the bride is 26 and the groom 28, I expect that the parents will pay on average more than the bride & groom 

[Misha]

Misha, why do you persist in this vein.  I already rebutted your statement regarding what she intended to do with her savings in my reply to your first post in this thread.

Because, IMHO, the woman did not do anything wrong, nothing out of the ordinary, and simply saved money to pay her a child's wedding. She did, what many, if not most, parents in the United States and Canada would have done 

[XMan]

Looking at this from a different angle, I find it strange that bride and groom, regardless of whether in the USA or FSU, expect or allow parents who may not necessarily have extraordinary wealth to pay a large sum for a one day event.  And I don't buy the "dreamed about it all my life" and "once in a lifetime" scenarios, especially given the divorce rate.  I'm not saying get married in the backyard and have hotdogs and chips for the reception, but $30,000?  Seriously.

If anything, it reflects the worst upon those who expect or allow the parents of either (or both) bride and groom to blow a wad of cash that was not easy to come by to begin with. 

I can understand a man stepping back and wondering what the heck a woman is doing spending a huge chunk of cash on a wedding extravaganza.  The man is immediately going to think, "and what next?"  But I don't think it's a bulletproof indicator.  It may instead be an indicator of how much the woman wants to do something special for her child  ---  her savings, her sacrifice.   

The most accurate judgment (concerning how a woman handles finances) is going to come from learning about how she has behaved both historically and in one's presence.  Some of these are quite obvious.  Is she acting as if as long as it's your money she doesn't care how much is spent?  Most likely the wrong woman.  Does she appreciate the gift you gave her, or wish it had been larger / prettier / better / etc.? 

On the flip side, often value systems are different.  Buying a pair of expensive shoes may seem like a crazy idea to a man who believes she needs a warmer coat or better food or a kitchen appliance or something else "more useful."  To her, it may bring so much enjoyment that it's worth being cold or sacrificing some other seeming necessity.   I know a woman who saved for 4 months for some crazy expensive dress that I could not see the value in at all.  She may never understand why I have a 1964 Fender jazz bass.    Especially if she doesn't play an instrument.

If a couple's value systems are too different, it's a real potential source of conflict, of course.  Many folks reference fights about finances when they speak about reasons behind divorce.

[Misha]

I can understand a man stepping back and wondering what the heck a woman is doing spending a huge chunk of cash on a wedding extravaganza.

Yet, men will say that they spend tens of thousands of dollars pursuing women from the FSU  How is that any better?

[XMan]

Yet, men will say that they spend tens of thousands of dollars pursuing women from the FSU  How is that any better?

Hmmmm.  It's not! 

So given that, we are all crazy. 

But, I gave up any claim to sanity when I started down this path.... 

[Gylden]

ML,
As you can see from peoples responses, this is just another compatibility issue between two people.
Some people can be very stubborn about issues (money or otherwise) and some are more flexible. What I believe is being highlighted here is that these issues should be resolved before getting married.
I remember my wife telling me a story about when she was younger and rather newly married to her ex. He spent their last money to buy her a fur coat. To her this was a very romantic moment. To judge her whole character regarding finances from this moment would have been a huge mistake, as I am sure I am married to the most frugal woman on the planet.
FWIW, in our relationship there is no her money/my money. We are a family and we work towards common goals. It has only strengthened our relationship. We both have kids from a previous marriage, hers are treated as mine and mine are treated as hers.
The bottom line IMO is that two people must understand each other and be accepting of any differences.

[dbneeley]

ML--

Sorry, but I don't see the connection between complaining that others don't "stay on point" yet you try to manipulate hypothetical situations to try in some way to get your point across. The issue was not "what about xyz situation" but what the actual one was.

Second, people here are overlooking some very basic facts that have shaped many people's views of money in the FSU. For example, it has not been uncommon for banks to fail here over the last twenty years. Therefore, a surprising number of people don't trust them. Also, there is a relatively widespread sense of fatalism--many people don't much look toward any goals for the far future. Saving for a flat either for themselves or, quite often, to give their children a start in life is something real and concrete; saving for retirement is much more vague, especially during the earlier years of life.

Also, consider that for people who mostly own their own dwellings, the monthly costs of living can be quite low. Thus, the perception of what might be necessary for retirement or job interruptions can be far more modest than for those in the West with much higher monthly costs.

Someone mentioned that a "79 dollar coat can keep you just as warm as an $800 one." While there are certainly coats well under $800 here, there are few as cheap as $79 (at least new) that would appear very durable or even perhaps very warm. At retail, clothing here is expensive. That is why so many people look for very high quality, to get the durability sufficient to serve for many years without replacement.

Again, it is obvious that many of you from the West seem to know little about the actual conditions and mindset of the people here. If I have in any way been wrong in these observations, I am sure one or more of the ladies will correct me.

Again consider the lady who bought the coat. The ability to actually buy something very nice that will give good service while appearing stylish is a definite psychological boost. I wonder if you can imagine the thoughts that must have been running through her head when waiting at the bus stops during cold Winter days, dreaming of being able to afford the sort of warm coats she saw others having around her? Yet you condemn her for making a different choice and having a different priority than you might have?

Someone mentioned he didn't think that parents commonly pay for weddings in the U.S. He is completely wrong--that is an extremely common phenomenon--to the point that for first weddings it is *usually* the parents who pay in most communities.

Whether it was a foolish choice for the other lady to spend $4,000 on a wedding for the son or not is something we cannot judge simply by that fact alone. For most people here, money is something that can be worked for and earned, while important family occasions are far more important. I'm not saying that spending that much was in any way necessary, as obviously it could have been done for far less most anywhere in the FSU. However, I have seen some examples where a family was very large and with an extensive list of friends and colleagues for whom a quite expensive wedding reception was somewhat necessary. In return, the newlyweds were presented with cash gifts from the invitees to help them on their way.

It is not feasible for most young couples to have much of a chance getting started without help from family. With typical salaries as they are, the purchase of a flat is often a huge obstacle. We simply don't know enough from the facts presented to make much of an intelligent assessment of the lady's priorities with the $4,000 wedding.

For those of you from the West with so little in the way of understanding or interest in what has created the values of these people, I must ask why you seek in the FSU to begin with if you expect the result to be the same as you would if seeking locally?

David