K1/K3 stats, states of well being, etc...

[Rubicon]

LOL.  Just yesterday, my better half was telling me how "North Americans are obsessed with money.  When did this society change," he asked,  "so that your relations are built on money?"

I really think you need to worry a lot less about money, and more about the soul that inhabits the body you want to spend your life with.

I told you Dave, I don't put much stock in such "empirical evidence", based on my own personal experience (0-2 weeks).

yes, the soul that inhabits the body you want to spend your life with is extremely important

Boethius, did you read #3 which I posted??  And how do you feel is the best way to balance money spent, with also attracting the soul which you want to spend your body with??

[Rubicon]

That's for sure.  We spent a total of about 4 months together.  One trip to Barnual and then Egypt, Thailand, Sochi and a summer together in Grenada and Barbados.   We spent about 5 months in administrative review which slowed our visa down a lot.  We had another 2 months together in the USA from the time she arrived until our marriage and we have now been married for 3 1/2 years.  It's been a great 3 1/2 years.   She is on her way back home for a visit tonight and should be passing the NE part of Canada right about now.

Congrats on your happy marriage!!

[BC]

I would like to welcome those who are expert at finding relevant stats (as I am not good at this) such as GQBlues and Boethius to join this discussion and post some current stats which show how many women either on a K1 or K3 visa leave The USA without getting married to the man.  ie.  how many planned marriages fail.  if there is any way to compare that to stats of how many planned marriages between AM and AW fail (they cancel the wedding and do NOT get married).

I believe a very high percentage of women on K1 and K3 visas leave within first few months, maybe up to a year, without getting married.

There is no way to get decent stats out of this since it is apples compared to oranges.

Relationships between AM and AW typically follow the following course:

1. They meet.
2. They date for a good while
3. They may or may not live together for a while
4. AW may get pregnant
5. Somewhere down the line they feel it is best to get married.
6. They walk down the aisle.
7. A wee few may walk away from the altar.

Relationships between AM and RW typically follow the following course:

1. They meet.
2. They date for a short period
3. They are not afforded the opportunity to live together.
4. They start K1 paperwork
5. They wait for Consulate Interview
6. Some drop out either before, during or after the Consulate Interview.
7. The remainder get on a plane to the US
8. They are able to be together for 90 days, many using this time as a 'trial period'
9. They decide to either to get married or not.
10. Those committed walk down the aisle
11. I have seen no reports of RW
12. I haven't heard of any RW walk away from the altar.

so.. bottom line the only thing that can be compared directly is steps 5 and 9.  Since step 9 is subsequent to K1, the number of K1's issued by the government is irrelevant.

To get some 'real' stats, one would have to monitor each and every K1 application from start to finish.. an impossible task even for the government.

Just because a K1 is issued does not mean that the couple truly intends to marry.  Just search 'trial period' which I view as a substitute for living together for a short while.

[GQBlues]

....How do the veterans who have been successful at this endeavor *think that they were able to attract a woman who could be happy with the life offered to her in America, the West, Ukraine, Russia or other planned country to live in which was discussed with her prior to marriage?? *

Rubicon-
 
Do you mind saying (asking) this another way as I'm not sure exactly what is it you wanted to know.
 
(LOL, married many years now and to this day my wife is still apprehensive spending much on anything. Sometimes I find it unnerving when she would call to tell me she saw a pair of shoes and would ask if it's alright for us to buy it. Mind you, her paycheck goes directly to our bank account so it's not like she's not pulling her weight. It's almost annoying.)
 
btw- as an aside, 'success' is relative, you know...
 
As for Faux Pas, take this anyway you want to but I thought his post was pretty benign. He's not as irresistably sexy as me, but AFAIK he's one of the good guys man... 

[Daveman]

It's no accident that he has used this exact same sort of language after several of my posts on other threads.  it's a personal attack, and not welcome.

...

We interrupt this thread for a special news bulletin:



There's a strange sort of hilarious irony here reaffirming my belief in Karmic Manifestations of Cosmic Pots and Kettles


You're absolutely and positively correct - personal attacks are not welcome.    




We now return you to the thread already in progress....

[Ade]

Life in these countries, especially Ukraine, is tough.  They are ruled by corrupt politicians, abused by corrupt authorities, and have few avenues to complain.   As one example, the scandal du jour in Ukraine is how municipal authorities in Kyiv sold public lands illegally and pocketed millions of dollars. 
 
People are usually unhappy if they feel powerless.
 
I won't speak for Russia, but life in the West is very different than Ukraine, especially Central/Eastern Ukraine.  People have lived on that land for centuries.  The pace of life, and the way they live, is different.  It is not unusual to just drop in, unannounced, on friends.  It often takes immigrants a huge amount of time to adjust to a different life, a different approach, and some can't, or never do.  As for women being unhappy, I blame the man.  Either he:
 
1. Chose unwisely.  He chose a woman most FSUM would reject. 
 
2.  Expected her to "fall over" because of all the consumer goods he bought her.  But she was looking for what she considered a more "normal" family life.

Although it has been mentioned in several threads and even has a dedicated thread or two to it somewhere, not enough mention is made of the culture shock that most of these women go through when they get to their new country. Some, or perhaps most, of the "she changed when she got here" blame-game and bitching mentality will be as much to do with culture shock as it is anything else.

I thank my lucky stars that my wife hardly batted an eye after she moved here; stroking my own ego, I can perhaps  take some credit for it because I was very much aware of the issues she was facing and did my utmost to support her and help her feel like she was in control. Or perhaps it's just that she's such an awesome women to begin with.

But it's understandable that men who have hardly left their own county let alone moved to a foreign country with a different language won't automatically understand what is going on when their new wives start behaving erratically and out of character.

Those guys reading this that haven't already really should look up some articles on culture shock symptoms and ways to help your significant other to deal with them. A quick google will turn up a ton but I thought this was a good description of the process; http://www.lossesintranslation.com/stages-of-immigration.php and this http://www.lossesintranslation.com/culture-shock.php - the advice in the latter link is aimed at the immigrant but will give men an idea of what goes through their mind.

[Turboguy]

To get some 'real' stats, one would have to monitor each and every K1 application from start to finish.. an impossible task even for the government.

BC, that is pretty much exactly what I tried to do in my little, quick research project that I talked about upthread.  I will repeat what I tried as a method to get an idea how many K-1 applicants do end up getting married.
 
Once again.  I went to the K-1 section of visa jouney and back to the oldest threads.  I picked 20 unique individuals in a row that were in the process of applying for a K-1 in 2005.  I then tried to look at the information about thier immigration status that was posted.  A few had little information.  If someone only had a post or two I passed over them on the assumption that they may never have applied for a K-1 or at least there was insuffient data.  I did miscount when I first posted this and the 18 I quoted should be 17.  Anyway it appeared that 17 of the 20 couples made it through removal of conditions or at least definatly married.  A few are citizens now and some stopped updating after ROC.  Of the remaining 3 they stopped updating after the interview was scheduled.  That doesn't mean things went bad but it is a small percentage which to me would indicate that the early stats in this thread that some might read as most k-1's failing is not correct.
 
Sometime if I have more time I may go back and try this again taking a little more time and using a little larger sample.  For reference if anyone else wants to play with this I used 20 consecutive individual posters starting with Rick and Lena and ending with Beth and Nash 
 
 
 

[BC]

BC, that is pretty much exactly what I tried to do in my little, quick research project that I talked about upthread.  I will repeat what I tried as a method to get an idea how many K-1 applicants do end up getting married.
 
Once again.  I went to the K-1 section of visa jouney and back to the oldest threads.  I picked 20 unique individuals in a row that were in the process of applying for a K-1 in 2005.  I then tried to look at the information about thier immigration status that was posted.  A few had little information.  If someone only had a post or two I passed over them on the assumption that they may never have applied for a K-1 or at least there was insuffient data.  I did miscount when I first posted this and the 18 I quoted should be 17.  Anyway it appeared that 17 of the 20 couples made it through removal of conditions or at least definatly married.  A few are citizens now and some stopped updating after ROC.  Of the remaining 3 they stopped updating after the interview was scheduled.  That doesn't mean things went bad but it is a small percentage which to me would indicate that the early stats in this thread that some might read as most k-1's failing is not correct.
 
Sometime if I have more time I may go back and try this again taking a little more time and using a little larger sample.  For reference if anyone else wants to play with this I used 20 consecutive individual posters starting with Rick and Lena and ending with Beth and Nash

TG,

Interesting approach, but guess even such will be doubted for one reason or the other and assumes the parties are interested anyway in posting their details on VJ, and not a random sample from a USCIS page or such.

Which brings me to the obvious question for Rubicon:

What purpose does this discourse serve?  Consider first that statistics are totally irrelevant at the individual level.  If one guy decides to chase FSUW for the purpose of marriage, telling him that he has XX % chances is totally false and misleading.

If one wants to look at the topic at a higher level using Dan's statistics and others, it's pretty fair to accept that marriages with international partners is equal or maybe better than with local women (when compared to USA).  IIRC Dan's survey was not exclusively USA bound couples either.. so we can whittle away all we want and not really achieve anything useful.

[Gator]

Which brings me to the obvious question for Rubicon:

What purpose does this discourse serve? 

The answer seems to be in the original post:
 

IMO the facts are that a higher percentage of FSUW cancel marriages to AM than AW cancel marriages to AM.  It may be difficult to back this up...


It is important for people to consider this when considering marriage to FSUW.  This is why I plan to live with a woman for minimum of 3 to 6 months either in Ukraine or possibly in Thailand or Equador prior to commitment for marriage.

I gather that Rubicon is concerned about divorce, and he is attempting to improve his understanding of the effect of K-1 vs. K-3 on divorce rates.  As with many threads, this one has much mental masturbation.   
 
IMO statistics for this endeavor are useful for general overviews; however, the only statistic that matters is one's individual case.  I spent a lot of time with my ex-wife before marriage (at least 6 months of face time, maybe a year).  I discovered that I did not know her as well as I thought, yet well enough to know it was fruitless.   The same applied to the two children - one was an even larger joy than I thought, and the other will perhaps need a good attorney someday.   
 
Most of the face time with my ex-wife was while traveling.   In that mode we were very compatible; in fact, she is the best travel companion in my long life (and there were many).   Yet it still took a year of USA normal life to realize our domestic incompatibility.
 
The bottom line:  know your woman.  How one achieves that given the constraints of this endeavor is the issue.

[BC]

The answer seems to be in the original post:
 
I gather that Rubicon is concerned about divorce, and he is attempting to improve his understanding of the effect of K-1 vs. K-3 on divorce rates.  As with many threads, this one has much mental masturbation.   
 

Sounds like someone is looking for the holy grail method to guarantee finding, wedding and staying married till death dictates parting.

Yeah, that's masturbating all right.

The chances are ALWAYS 50/50 - either it works out or it it doesn't regardless of method, time etc.

[Rubicon]

I would like to thank everybody who has posted here.  Especially TurboGuy.  One of my belief's is that the more time spent with the lady prior to marriage the better.  TG spent a lot of time with his woman in various places and is now happily married.  I would still like to hear back from Boethius regarding #3.  I would also like to hear from anyone who would like to comment on the survey about "subjective well being" (happiness) and how they feel is the best way to determine that a women is going to be capable of being happy in life in the present, and not always looking for a BBD in the future.  I believe we live life in the present, and we need to be able to smell the roses.

[Misha]

Yet being a cheap bastid and a tightwad will get you label as greedy and marital bliss will elude you by most women and especially FSUW. Being tight fisted with your money and saving your way to happiness might work for you. Make sure you find a compatible likewise woman or both your lives will be hell FWIW

Personally, when dating I would have dumped any woman who bandied about the "жадный" (aka "greedy") too freely and too readily.

There's nothing wrong with being frugal if that is what floats your boat. It's just merely a way of life some people live. Rube you elude to money and possessions quite often on the forum. When you choose love over money or money over love, you will lose one or the other. Sometimes both.

In our case, my wife is much more frugal that I was, but she has taught me quite a bit. It is not a question of choosing love over money or money over love, rather working together to achieve common goals 

[Rubicon]

Personally, when dating I would have dumped any woman who bandied about the "жадный" (aka "greedy") too freely and too readily.



In our case, my wife is much more frugal that I was, but she has taught me quite a bit. It is not a question of choosing love over money or money over love, rather working together to achieve common goals 

Thanks Misha.  I really don't know why FP kept bandying that about also except he was determined to obfuscate intentions.

You last statement is key:  finding a partner who wishes to work together to achieve common goals.

[Misha]

The bottom line:  know your woman.  How one achieves that given the constraints of this endeavor is the issue.

Yes, but even a K3 and years spent in her country won't necessarily help as we have seen on the forum.

[Faux Pas]

Sounds like someone is looking for the holy grail method to guarantee finding, wedding and staying married till death dictates parting.

Yeah, that's masturbating all right.

The chances are ALWAYS 50/50 - either it works out or it it doesn't regardless of method, time etc.

Seemingly looking for all sorts of priorities to put first rather than the most difficult hurdle of finding and developing a relationship that isn't measured in money, shopping trips or the "BBD". Paranoia rarely will lead to happiness in or a healthy relationship

[BC]

I would like to thank everybody who has posted here.  Especially TurboGuy.  One of my belief's is that the more time spent with the lady prior to marriage the better.  TG spent a lot of time with his woman in various places and is now happily married.  I would still like to hear back from Boethius regarding #3.  I would also like to hear from anyone who would like to comment on the survey about "subjective well being" (happiness) and how they feel is the best way to determine that a women is going to be capable of being happy in life in the present, and not always looking for a BBD in the future.  I believe we live life in the present, and we need to be able to smell the roses.

Rubicon,

Imagine your questions as the side of a barn where no matter how close or far, what angle or height, not a soul on earth can hit the barn with a ball more than 50% of the time.

Of any one particular quality that can help someone along, I count plain old 'common sense' at the top of the list.  Unfortunately in the hormone rush it is also the last quality to prevail leaving most if not all of us to some extent, at the mercy of the gods and a little piece of engorged tissue.

There are and never will be guarantees in this venture.  Life just doesn't work that way with AW, EUW, other world W's and FSUW.

In fact, I say the best method is not to even look for a wife in the first place.. Worked very well for quite a few married folk and is a tried and true method.. as good as any other.

Forget that 'reward is commensurate to the effort invested' routine.  It does not apply because even trying with methods described with any acronym on this and other boards means you'll always be swimming upstream.  Starting a relationship should not be difficult, it should happen effortlessly.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon,

Imagine your questions as the side of a barn where no matter how close or far, what angle or height, not a soul on earth can hit the barn with a ball more than 50% of the time.

Of any one particular quality that can help someone along, I count plain old 'common sense' at the top of the list.  Unfortunately in the hormone rush it is also the last quality to prevail leaving most if not all of us to some extent, at the mercy of the gods and a little piece of engorged tissue.

There are and never will be guarantees in this venture.  Life just doesn't work that way with AW, EUW, other world W's and FSUW.

In fact, I say the best method is not to even look for a wife in the first place.. Worked very well for quite a few married folk and is a tried and true method.. as good as any other.

Forget that 'reward is commensurate to the effort invested' routine.  It does not apply because even trying with methods described with any acronym on this and other boards means you'll always be swimming upstream.  Starting a relationship should not be difficult, it should happen effortlessly.

Very good observations, BC.

[Rubicon]

Seemingly looking for all sorts of priorities to put first rather than the most difficult hurdle of finding and developing a relationship that isn't measured in money, shopping trips or the "BBD". Paranoia rarely will lead to happiness in or a healthy relationship

Careful planning is far from paranoia.

[Faux Pas]

Careful planning is far from paranoia.

In your lust to attempt to denigrate anything I post you completely overlook the message. Am I surprised? No.I would expect nothing less from you. You still don't "get it". I do have a question for you though, with all your careful planning, do you make the plan and then find the woman or find the woman and then make the plan?

[GQBlues]

Rubicon-
 
Likely too late for you (ha-hah), but I suppose if folks would like to test the waters' (e.g. living together) before tying the proverbial knot with a FSUW, and as I had always (and strongly) advocated in the past, if FSUW is the type of women you'd like to be with - there's a whole lot of single FSUWs already living in the USA that are looking for a good man.
 
Of course, it won't be fishing in a barrel and she more than likely understands what her options are (thus choices) but the way I look at that is, the tougher the competition the more assured you will be of her choosing YOU.
 
We know at least 5 'young' single Russian women within our circle who look as good as the pics you posted as eye candies on another thread. Far more if 'looks' isn't your core criteria (and no, they're NOT Jewish)...
 
As Donna Pedro stated many times before, you want guarantees - get a toaster.

[Misha]

Careful planning is far from paranoia.

I would say that what is essential is knowing what to look for in a life partner and knowing how to recognize it when you find it. I know, personally, that I had some specific character traits that I was looking for in a wife. I was not willing to settle for anything less.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon-
 
Likely too late for you (ha-hah), but I suppose if folks would like to test the waters' (e.g. living together) before tying the proverbial knot with a FSUW, and as I had always (and strongly) advocated in the past, if FSUW is the type of women you'd like to be with - there's a whole lot of single FSUWs already living in the USA that are looking for a good man.
 
Of course, it won't be fishing in a barrel and she more than likely understands what her options are (thus choices) but the way I look at that is, the tougher the competition the more assured you will be of her choosing YOU.
 
We know at least 5 'young' single Russian women within our circle who look as good as the pics you posted as eye candies on another thread. Far more if 'looks' isn't your core criteria (and no, they're NOT Jewish)...
 
As Donna Pedro stated many times before, you want guarantees - get a toaster.

LOL!!  No eye candy is not my only criteria.  Those under 25 year old women are too young for me.  attractive yes, but equally attractive in manners and attitude and life experience.  Always willing to be flexible if need be.  If anything inner beauty is just as important as external beauty.  I also like down to earth women who can get their hands dirty planting vegetables in the garden or go hiking or water skiing in summer or skiing in the winter time.  Somebody who is comfortable in jeans and t shirt or more dressed up for a date. 

[Admin]

In your lust to attempt to denigrate anything I post you completely overlook the message. Am I surprised? No.I would expect nothing less from you. You still don't "get it". I do have a question for you though, with all your careful planning, do you make the plan and then find the woman or find the woman and then make the plan?

How about . . .

Make a plan to FIND a woman, then

FIND her, then

Make a plan what to DO with her now that she is found.

Actually, in my primary line of work there is a rather ancient play on words known as "The 7 P's"

Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pi**
Poor
Performance

Sometimes pared back to only 6 P's for the more genteel crowd.

FWIW

- Dan

[GQBlues]

.....attractive yes, but equally attractive in manners and attitude and life experience.  Always willing to be flexible if need be.  If anything inner beauty is just as important as external beauty.  I also like down to earth women who can get their hands dirty planting vegetables in the garden or go hiking or water skiing in summer or skiing in the winter time.  Somebody who is comfortable in jeans and t shirt or more dressed up for a date.

HHhhmmm, sounds a lot like AWs to me, so now you're really starting to confuse me.

[Faux Pas]

How about . . .

Make a plan to FIND a woman, then

FIND her, then

Make a plan what to DO with her now that she is found.

Actually, in my primary line of work there is a rather ancient play on words known as "The 7 P's"

Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pi**
Poor
Performance

Sometimes pared back to only 6 P's for the more genteel crowd.

FWIW

- Dan

Makes sense to me Dan!   But what if it doesn't fit into his plan?