Hello from New England

[artisan5308]

Hi, I'm new to this site and am I GLAD I found you folks. My Fiance (FSU Ukrainian) and I are going to be together in America by the spring I wager. She is 36, me 55. She has three children, 5,7, and 14. One lives with the biological father. So my expectations were that she would be arriving with two children, which I am prepared for. What I didn't expect was that dad would allow the boy 7, to leave with his mother as he has been raising him for a few years at least on his own. Now that there is a third child, I am getting cold feet. In fairness to my fiance, she has said all along that it is her dream and God's will that all her children be with her. So I can't cry that I was blindsided. I just didn't think the father would capitulate. I say this because I myself was a single father and wouldn't have even entertained the idea of letting go of my son especially out of the country. He has never provided a hryvna of support for the other children, but seemed to be a responsible father to the seven year old. I met the man on a number of occasions while traveling there and he seemed decent enough.
I appreciate some feedback from anybody who wants to. I am also interested in hearing from anyone who married an FSU lady with children and what are their experiences. Much appreciated, thanks, Peter

[mies]

Artisan, welcome

Do you think one extra child will make a big difference where there already are 2? Your fiance is 19 years younger than you. You could have picked another woman: without children, or with adult children. 

I am not married to FSU woman, but in Russia we have a saying: "If a man loves a woman, he loves her children too." I hope this answers all your possible questions.

[Kineo]

  to the forum Artisan!
 
I have to pretty much echo what Mies said. I think Dad wanted the best opportunities for his son and not have to pay for raising him. But like you said you knew this was a possibility.
 
I commend you for being ready to raise children. I am 52 and when my son is grown I will be done raising children. I have not asked my UW to marry me yet but I think the day is coming soon. But her children are both adults.
 
What part of New England are you from? I live in Maine.
 
-K
 
 
 

[artisan5308]

You are correct in that. I think the dad wants his boy to have a better life as well. Thanks.

I'm from Connnecticut, thankyou for the welcome

[Faux Pas]

Hi Peter! Welcome to RWD.


How long have you been seeing this lady and how many trips have you made? Were you looking for women with children or did you give it much consideration either way? Young children to a man 55 is a lifestyle altering move. Do you have children of your own?

[ML]

I am not married to FSU woman, but in Russia we have a saying: "If a man loves a woman, he loves her children too."

Hi Mies.  Is it typical that a FSUM will marry a woman with children and also agree to support these children?

[Gator]

I advise you to walk away.  Why?  Your heart is not in it.  If it were you would gladly welcome her son.   Your love for the mother would compel you to get her children together.   
 
Feeding 5 mouths vs. 4 - there is no significant difference.   
 
There must be something else you are not disclosing.

[ML]

Feeding 5 mouths vs. 4 - there is no significant difference.   

Perhaps, but there are many other more significant costs such as clothes, etc.

And how about another $40,000 to $100,000 for university education per child?

Sure you can say let the children work their way through college, get loans, etc., . . .  but often these are not viable and the parents pay.

[mies]

Hi Mies.  Is it typical that a FSUM will marry a woman with children and also agree to support these children?

Hi, ML. Actually, a very good and valid question. No, of what i've heard, it isn't typical at all. And this is why this saying exist. Basically if the man doesn't want to marry woman with children it is understood that he doesn't love her and this isn't a real partnership or relationship, more of a "convenience" (or an inconvenience?) dating.
Many people still get involved in such relationship. The world is imperfect, after all. But majority of women would never choose a man over her child if the choice has to be made.

[mies]

Perhaps, but there are many other more significant costs such as clothes, etc.

And how about another $40,000 to $100,000 for university education per child?

Sure you can say let the children work their way through college, get loans, etc., . . .  but often these are not viable and the parents pay.

with university cost I agree. Clothes are very cheap. Plus, if there will be a need, younger children can wear clothes of the older ones.

When I was growing up (age 12-14, around Perestroyka time) I had a school uniform dress, a pair of jeans, and a choir uniform skirt, a coat I totally hated because it was really ugly, some summer clothes like 2 t-shirts and 2 skirts I made myself from fabric leftovers we got from local clothes-manufacturing factory. When I discovered my father's old sweaters and corduroy pants from his teenage time I added them to my wardrobe - his corduroy pants turned into really cute and stylish skirt. I do not know what kind of "significant clothes costs" you are talking about in 2011 in USA.

[Gator]

I advise you to walk away.  Why?  Your heart is not in it.  If it were you would gladly welcome her son.   Your love for the mother would compel you to get her children together.   
 
Feeding 5 mouths vs. 4 - there is no significant difference.   
 
There must be something else you are not disclosing.

Artisan, I made this post quickly before departing for a party.   It sounds very definitive, yet it is something only you know.  What do you want? 
 
I like kids and I basically dated only RW with kids.  Nevertheless, the key factor is the depth of love between you and the mother.  Kids are a huge responsibility, yet they grow up and move on.  Mama stays.  She is the cake and the kids are just the frosting.   
 
"...she has said all along that it is her dream and God's will that all her children be with her..."   Of course that is her feeling.  I feel your woman will be happy with you but even happier having her 7-yo son.   

[pitbull]

with university cost I agree. Clothes are very cheap. Plus, if there will be a need, younger children can wear clothes of the older ones.

Much depends on the source of Viking's hesitation. Is finances the primary issue? Kids are indeed expensive, if one wants to create opportunities and maximize development during childhood. Clothes are optional, though for a boy and a girl they'll definitely have to buy different clothes, hardly any hand-me-downs. I'd say, sports and activities are very expensive (like music, dance, ballet,  art class etc.) My bosses' son plays lacrosse - she spends crazy amounts of money on equipment, plus league fees, plus constant travel for games etc.)
I understand Viking's hesitation. By the time the visa paperwork goes through, he was hoping to have a 15-16 y.o. and a 6-7 y.o. on his hands. A couple more years down the road, and the older one is on her own, with only one kid in the house. Now looks like he's going to have 2 more left to raise. A very different situation.

I'm not even talking about the energy level that is required for 3 kids in the house!

[Muzh]

Hi Peter and 
 
I'm just a couple of years older than you and I have three children. I'm their biological father. All I can tell you is that where there's one, there can be two and also a three. It don't matter. Besides, her kids are past the diaper change and making bottles in the wee morning hours.
 
However, I tend to agree with Gator that your reservations are not a good sign for a healthy marriage with this woman.

[Faux Pas]

Artisan, I made this post quickly before departing for a party.   It sounds very definitive, yet it is something only you know.  What do you want? 
 
I like kids and I basically dated only RW with kids.  Nevertheless, the key factor is the depth of love between you and the mother.  Kids are a huge responsibility, yet they grow up and move on.  Mama stays.  She is the cake and the kids are just the frosting.   
 
"...she has said all along that it is her dream and God's will that all her children be with her..."   Of course that is her feeling.  I feel your woman will be happy with you but even happier having her 7-yo son.

+1


Which is why I asked the questions I did. The difference between 2 children and 3 isn't really cause for raising the brow, is it? Seems there must be something else at play. Now if he were seeking a woman with none, found her and felt the compromise of 2, he felt he could live with and then 3 kind'a poohs on that, maybe his heart isn't there where it should be. Especially with 3 children involved.


Peter, the 3 children will take precedent in your life or at least they should. Make sure it's what you want.

[mies]

Much depends on the source of Viking's hesitation. Is finances the primary issue? Kids are indeed expensive, if one wants to create opportunities and maximize development during childhood. Clothes are optional, though for a boy and a girl they'll definitely have to buy different clothes, hardly any hand-me-downs. I'd say, sports and activities are very expensive (like music, dance, ballet,  art class etc.) My bosses' son plays lacrosse - she spends crazy amounts of money on equipment, plus league fees, plus constant travel for games etc.)
I understand Viking's hesitation. By the time the visa paperwork goes through, he was hoping to have a 15-16 y.o. and a 6-7 y.o. on his hands. A couple more years down the road, and the older one is on her own, with only one kid in the house. Now looks like he's going to have 2 more left to raise. A very different situation.

I'm not even talking about the energy level that is required for 3 kids in the house!

Agree with you fully. My comment about clothes were response to ML's post.

In terms of investment into a child - depends on family income. Not all families have their children on lacrosse team or in a ballet school. One of my friends have always owned nice and not particularly cheap riding horses through her childhood, and was on university polo team at the time when i met her. My colleague's 3-and-a-bit yo daughter is attending pre-school, ballet school, musical school, and a bunch of other educating schools. My other friend's 3-4yo daughter is attending only a pre-school and it's around $1200/mo. No ballet or music or any other schools since parents are on a modest budget. So I agree it could be expensive to raise 3 children.
On the other hand, I doubt that the 5, 7, and 14y olds from the OPs story are currently doing ballet or horseriding in Ukraine.

I still think that the marginal cost of 1 child where there already are 2 other kids will not be too high.
 Everyone in this thread talks about the cost of college education. I am quite surprised to see that every single person on this board has paid for college education of their children and fully intend to pay for college education of their adopted FSU children. Most of my American friends (around 30) have paid for their college education with loans or stipends, some were completely cut off their families financially when they turned 18. Parents of my best friend told him "you can live with us, but you will be paying rent." So he decided to live separately.

Another acquaintance had offered the older child that they will pay for her college if she pays for college of a younger sibling. The two kids have 12 years age difference so it doesn't look unrealistic. Similar to bank loan, only meant to strengthen the ties in family and raise children in a spirit of mutual support and responsibility. Older girl is about to finish her college and already got a job offer with salary over 100K. It is very likely that in a few years when younger brother will be ready for college, she will be able to pay for his education upon her agreements with parents.

I think my point here is that there are multiple custom solutions for every situation. The most important is the desire (or lack of such) to have and raise children.

[Gator]

Peter the Artisan,
 
I was rushing to a party when I first posted, and after being overserved I returned to post again.  My head is clearer this morning and perhaps I can explain  better my opinion about the serious situation you face.
 
You expressed your question to us.  Instead, why don't you ask your fiancee.   Please say the following to your woman:   "I want to marry you if the family includes only two of your three kids.  If the third kid is part of the package, I do not want to marry you." 
 
In effect, you would be asking her to choose either you or her 7-yo son.  I do not know her exact reaction, yet I wager it will be the last experience she will ever have with you. 
 
I know kids.  A 7-yo boy is a lot of fun for a man.  So what is the real story?  What are you not telling us?  For example, do you believe this boy will demand too much of your attention, leaving you less time for artisan work (which understandably involves some solitude)?
 
You asked about experiences with marrying RW with children.  After dating a RW with two children for 6 years (off and on, mainly on), we married. She received no support from the father and had little help from her family in raising the kids.  Thus, her two kids were like an attached growth - they were inseparable, but not by choice.  The kids did not speak English and clung to mama, so when we did something together I felt there was me and the three of them.  The kids started learning English and that made a huge difference. 
 
Upon moving here, the kids and I became close.  For the first time in her life, Mama had time for just herself.  Mama and I soon grew apart, and  we divorced after just one year of marriage.   Mama had some substantial assets (flats in Moscow) and is able to take care of herself.  Every RW is different.
 
You really need to think this through.  If you have reservations I advise you to walk away, even if your reservations are moderate.  I had moderate reservations with my marriage, and I told you what happened. 

[Gator]

By the time the visa paperwork goes through, he was hoping to have a 15-16 y.o. and a 6-7 y.o. on his hands. A couple more years down the road, and the older one is on her own, with only one kid in the house.

I know this mentality!!!!!  What about her university education?
 
When my wife and two kids moved here, I placed the kids in school.  The boy was older and spoke English, and we decided to send him to private school.  The headmaster and I thought it best that he stay in the 6th grade (the level he just completed in Moscow) and not advance him to the 7th grade where he would be the youngest boy.  Mama was furious.  She wanted him out of the house at 17, and my decision would keep him around for another year. 
 
 

[artisan5308]

Thankyou everyone for your input. I really appreciate the interest people on this site show each other. The insight is commendable and obviously based on experience and personal views expressed.
To begin with, I love this woman very much. I am also very fond of the children and am solidly connected with the five year old Sasha Alexander. Bogdan, the seven year old boy has lived with his father for my whole involvement with Ksyusha. I haven't spent a lot of time with him as a result. I have traveled to be with Ksyusha and the children on four occasions, staying up to a month each time, so I have ample time to feel things out. Those times that Bogdan has spent with us there have been fun. On my last trip there in September, I took the family, minus Bogdan, to the Black Sea. Bogdan did not want to make the trip and preferred to stay with Dad. When our trip ended we found ourselves unable to secure rail passage back to Donetsk Oblast. The father, who owns and operates a taxi offered to make the drive out to collect us and bring us back. It was when we were all together in the car, that I saw the tight bond between the father and son, so much so that when Ksyusha and Andrew (dad) started arguing about something, Bogdan launched a verbal attack on Ksyusha, protecting his father. Hence my complete surprise at the recent developments.
So you could say my issues are (1). Is Bogdan coming to America of his own free will? (2) When he is here, will he pine for his father so much that he becomes a behavior problem, impairing his learning of a new language and culture that he may not have his heart into? These are legitimate concerns for me. Anna and Sasha are ready to roll. Anna isn't very close at all to Andrew, and Sasha has rejected his father from birth (he is extremely close to Mom). Both are quite close to me as well, especially the boy.
As far as my motivations go, first I should say that  I enjoy raising children. I've raised my son and several step children to the best of my ability. My son and his wife had a real problem with me being with this woman and children, especially when my grandaughter Lily was born. My son also carries some baggage from childhood regarding me spreading the love to other children from my marriages. We have openly discussed this and just recently he has begun to thaw about the whole relationship, which is a good thing. Do I have fears and concerns, you bet. My age, financial considerations, sure! Life is so very unpredictable, it's scary at times. As a self employed person, I get concerned with the crap economy and my ability to sustain a livable income. But these are concerns all people feel. Are they enough for me to walk away from Ksyusha? Nyet.

[Gator]

Peter,
 
Your elaboration reveals a more sensitive concern about some complicated family dynamics.  At first, I thought you were selfish or something similar.   Shows how easy it is to draw wrong conclusions in a forum.
 
You say Sasha rejected his father from birth.  That simply can not be true.  Infants do not reject fathers.  Perhaps  you meant to say he has been separated from his father since birth?
 
Anyway, this is more about child psychology than about your feelings towards Bogdan. One does not have to be a child psychologist to know that if Bogdan joins you, he must feel loved, equal to his brother and sister.  Your own son's "baggage" indicates what could happen.  My feeling is that if Bogdan is accepted by his sister and brother, all will be well. Mama must help with that and it sounds as if she wants to.  OTOH if he is treated as the oddchild, it could cause severe problems.  It is almost like mingling children from two first marriages and expecting everything to be rosy.   
 
I would suggest that you really try to unite all three kids.  You say that you enjoy children.  If severe problems develop, the alternative is for his father to accept him again.   
 
 
To your advantage:
 
   -  Bogdan is only seven.  At that age they are very adaptive, flexible and fun.

   -  Andrew seems like a decent man and good father.  This is not common based on my experience with divorced RW.  I never met the RM fathers, yet heard many dreadful stories of abandonment.  Admittedly, I heard only one side of the story, and maybe the mama was the source of the problem.  Who knows!

[artisan5308]

Gator, thanks again. You're correct, "separate" would be the better term. Ksyusha used the word "rejected" which I took as her meaning Sasha refused his love.

I'm not too concerned about my ability to provide the love Bogdan needs. It is his willingness to accept it that remains to be seen.

The three children together seem to get along quite well and I don't sense any ostracizing by either Anna or Sasha towards their brother. So in that sense, the family should be pretty tight.

On my last trip over, Sasha and his mother met me in the airport. He was all decked out in three pc suit and a pair of my glasses on his head looking real pleased with himself. Quite the little man.

When I asked Ksyusha where Bogdan was, he stayed in the car with his grandfather because he lacked a suit and felt hurt by that. So there is some inequity in play that can be remedied over here when we are all together.

I do provide support for her and the kids.  Bogdan, because he lives with Dad, gets left out on some of the spoils.

[Faux Pas]

To begin with, I love this woman very much. I am also very fond of the children and am solidly connected with the five year old Sasha Alexander. Bogdan, the seven year old boy has lived with his father for my whole involvement with Ksyusha. I haven't spent a lot of time with him as a result. I have traveled to be with Ksyusha and the children on four occasions, staying up to a month each time, so I have ample time to feel things out. Those times that Bogdan has spent with us there have been fun. On my last trip there in September, I took the family, minus Bogdan, to the Black Sea. Bogdan did not want to make the trip and preferred to stay with Dad. When our trip ended we found ourselves unable to secure rail passage back to Donetsk Oblast. The father, who owns and operates a taxi offered to make the drive out to collect us and bring us back. It was when we were all together in the car, that I saw the tight bond between the father and son, so much so that when Ksyusha and Andrew (dad) started arguing about something, Bogdan launched a verbal attack on Ksyusha, protecting his father. Hence my complete surprise at the recent developments.
So you could say my issues are (1). Is Bogdan coming to America of his own free will? (2) When he is here, will he pine for his father so much that he becomes a behavior problem, impairing his learning of a new language and culture that he may not have his heart into? These are legitimate concerns for me.

Thank you for the further insight. It certainly aids in understanding your situation. These are all very legitimate concerns. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with them.


I gather it isn't the expense of the 3rd child and it does appear you could grow as fond of him as the other two. This is good and doesn't seem to be a deal breaker. In a backdoor kind of way I gather your concern is for the well being of the 7 year old.


My suggestion would be to have this discussion with your future wife. While she wishes for all 3 children to be together, you would only wish that if it is in the child best interest. Separating him from his father may not produce that desired result. Be flexible and willing to give it an honest attempt but, leave an out that he may return if becomes a problem.

[artisan5308]

Really my only option at this point.

I have discussed this with Ksyusha and she isn't at all concerned. Maybe she knows something I don't. Maybe she's just naive.

I'm going to take your advice and have some more discussion with her.

Thanks again

[Chicagoguy]

II'm not even talking about the energy level that is required for 3 kids in the house!

For me the energy level would be a serious consideration but there are real differences between all of us.
When I raised three daughters I had the first one at age 25. The second at 35. Boy, could I tell the difference. I would half joke that if I had another at 45 it would have been terrible and if I had been 55 color me gone 

[AzNCowboy587]

Hey Artisan5308... My name is Christopher... I'm an Artisan as well!! *waves*

 

Tri-Fata-Zai!!

[Muzh]

Wow!
 
Peter, what a story!
 
I can tell you right off the bat that separating Bogdan from his father will be traumatic (maybe) for him. After all, his father (it appears) is taking care of him and doing something right for this boy to feel that kind of attachment to his father. And it is NOT like he can spend the weekend with dad once you marry your lady and move back here.
 
You have some serious discussion with your lady ahead of you. Please, put the child first no matter what. I suggest you both include Bogdan's father into these discussions.