Realistic Expectations

[Donna_Pedro]

Congratulations on your love development 

 A bit too late, but thanks anyway.  I married a man I picked consciously, based on his personal qualities and financial situation. I never let cherry affect my choice of cakes. But I do agree, its fun to have them in your life.  Just an  observation  - people think that its either love or loveless, cold, calculating relationship, but in fact there is a lot of fuzzy stuff in between.

[pitbull]

I am not arguing with fruits of your imagination. You dont need me to interfere in this conversation with yourself. By all means, do not stop, its funny to watch.. 

Hmm... I guess I hit a nerve  Yes, DP, not every RW in those marriages needs to go to bed with the man she doesn't love every night.... just to secure a "nice pie". Oh well, life is unfair.

[OlgaH]

A bit too late, but thanks anyway. 

Sorry, as soon as you announced about your love achievement 

[Donna_Pedro]

Sorry, as soon as you announced about your love achievement 

 I am sorry, you (and other people) assumed that I did not love my husband, because I said that I did not love him at the beginning of our relationship. I actually tried to correct this confusion back 12 pages ago (or even in another thread), but I decided not to press this matter. It messes up  people's arguementation - its easier to argue a cold and calculating person..    I am just watching.

[OlgaH]

 I am sorry, you (and other people) assumed that I did not love my husband, because I said that I did not love him at the beginning of our relationship. I actually tried to correct this confusion back 12 pages ago (or even in another thread), but I decided not to press this matter. It messes up  people's arguementation - its easier to argue a cold and calculating person..    I am just watching.

Oh, Donna_Pedro, don't back-pedal, you ruin your own conception and mess up your own argumentation " that women keep their heads cold and love (cherry)-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival", I guess until it will be known how "cake" is big 

But I'm glad for you that you found your good cake and would "be fully content to consume it without a cherry." 

We are watching your calculations  too 

[Donna_Pedro]

" that women keep their heads cold and love (cherry)-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival", I guess until it will be known how "cake" is big 

But I'm glad for you that you found your good cake and would "be fully content to consume it without a cherry." 

Its all true, I do not deny any part of it. But I am confused, which of  these statements imply that I do not love my husband now or have not loved him since I realized the true size of  the cake?  Its Ok to confess that you were just carried away. It happens to the best of us all the time. Btw, I did say now (and I made a point of clarifying it earlier) that the "cake" includes not just money but personality traits as well. Judging by your comment above you seem to  have conveniently  overlooked that part too.

[Maxx2]

 
Hold on a second, and what do you call  3 years in Auburn, AL? following by 3 in Panama City, FL??? Pleasure trips? 

See! you proved me correct! I remember your saying being a RW there was like to the locals as a elephant from the circus parading down the street. Everyone would stop and stare at you. 

[OlgaH]

Its all true, I do not deny any part of it. But I am confused, which of  these statements imply that I do not love my husband now or have not loved him since I realized the true size of  the cake?  Its Ok to confess that you were just carried away. It happens to the best of us all the time. Btw, I did say now (and I made a point of clarifying it earlier) that the "cake" includes not just money but personality traits as well. Judging by your comment above you seem to  have conveniently  overlooked that part too.

OK, I believe you were carried away in your late explanations and clarifications on the "cake"   

again congratulations on your box#1 that confirmed your love 

Let me repeat myself - I suggested  finances to be the first thing on a woman's list of  priorities. But not the only one. Other important boxes need to be checked too, after (and if) box#1 is OK.

[Donna_Pedro]

See! you proved me correct! 

Auburn, Al was awful. My husband is not exactly a big city guy, but it was too backwards even for him. He would never go there willingly.

[BC]

Just an  observation  - people think that its either love or loveless, cold, calculating relationship, but in fact there is a lot of fuzzy stuff in between.

And indeed a good one.  I think one has to embrace the possibility of many types of relationships.  Take for example one where the partners consider their marriage 'open'.  Does this make their marriage invalid? - certainly not.

Bottom line for me when looking at any relationship is if the partners are meeting each other's needs, thus being 'happy'.  Take another example, one where physical and/or emotional abuse is involved.  Would that marriage be valid?  I think not as it does not qualify as 'meeting each other's needs', nor is it an environment where both partners could be considered 'happy'.

[OlgaH]

Take another example, one where physical and/or emotional abuse is involved.  Would that marriage be valid?

Do you remember Anastasia King's story. Her mother was so obsessed with the idea of her daughter living in the US and box#1 pushing her daughter to a marriage, that the mother got blinded and failed to see how her daughter was unhappy with her American husband, her daughter's discomfort and disgust when he tried to kiss her, and eventually it led to the tragedy.

But I suggest to both sides not to fall in love before they actually start living together.

Where did I say that it was THE ONLY one?  You assumed? Shame on you.I did say this. Btw, it usually happens (and I recommend it this way) before a relationship is in place. Its not practical - to mix finances with anything else. I say - communicate a few times, collect as much primary info as you can,  check finances, if your expectations are met -  see if other boxes check out, and then it might be worth trying to build a relationship. There might be even feelings eventually. But I strongly suggest that women keep their heads cold and love-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival. There could be a "no-go" on every level..Sometimes it happens - a rich guy could be an a-hole and its up to a woman if she wants to try to build a relationship with him or proceed to the next one.

That's fine when a cold business approach to marriage conception where "business are separated from feelings" works and eventually some feelings and maybe love finally developed, and of course some people are happy in loveless marriage too.

In my opinion (and of course it is only my opinion) neither chemistry nor  infatuation and even "I like you" is enough to build a family.

But there is a situation when feelings and love doesn't come after her arrival or after a loveless marriage ceremony. For cold and calculating people with business approach when they care neither about their own feelings nor about feelings of their partner, it absolutely doesn't matter for them.

But is it really worth to gamble with feelings? and find yourself in a situation when you are thousands miles away from your country, when you left your job or studies, went through the fiancee visa process and now you have to choose "to return home or get your GC anyway living with a person you don't even like, then go through the divorce..."

Yesterday, my Russian friend told me she broke up with her American guy after 4-5 month of correspondence, skyping and already their planned meeting (thanks God they planned their meeting outside her city). Good for her he could not keep his sexual fantasies for more time. Now he sends her angry, I would say "sociopathic" letters.

I'm glad she took my advice  not to be in hurry to meet him, not to concentrate her attention on his financial situation and photos of his property,  but to make her priority to get to know him better, concentrate on his personality and find out what they have in common.

[GoodOlBoy]

....my Russian friend told me she broke up with her American guy after 4-5 month of correspondence, skyping and already their planned meeting (thanks God they planned their meeting outside her city). Good for her he could not keep his sexual fantasies for more time.

Let me guess..... dildos? 
 
GOB

[Misha]

I'm glad she took my advice  not to be in hurry to meet him, not to concentrate her attention on his financial situation and photos of his property,  but to make her priority to get to know him better, concentrate on his personality and find out what they have in common.

Sage advice IMVHO!

[Eduard]

Sage advice IMVHO!

Misha, you beat me to it!

[Patagonie]

A cold heart woman who suddenly become an emotional and sentimental girl as just she discovers how big is the cake will be not only a kill lover for but i will throw her away her very quickly. I would feel exactly in the same situation as a guy who dredges a girl and when he  kisses her after few hours she suddenly says : for blowjob it's $$$, for XX it's $$$ $.   

Anyways she will not even reach this stage because i would assess continually her interest and her emotional  involvement.
And second for the size of the cake she would not know.

Two good reasons to avoid this type of girls. 

You will spend time with a personality, which is more important than a wealthiness. (married with a bad man, even rich, and you can loose all your money (his money you think it is your + your own money you have from previous marriage, and your health, and your feelings (you develop after having seen the cake).

Indecent proposition as movie shows you how material things can twist immaterial (humans) values.

[Gator]

And indeed a good one.  I think one has to embrace the possibility of many types of relationships.  Take for example one where the partners consider their marriage 'open'.  Does this make their marriage invalid? - certainly not.

I must disagree with an open marriage being valid.  It does not work based on my direct experience and what a family counselor told me.  If it does not work, it is not valid.  It is fun trying it after a long marriage has grown stale, yet it does not resolve the underlying issue that someone wants affection from someone outside the family.
 
It may work for some marriages, yet most IMO will suffer. 
 
Did RWD ever try to define the ultimate spiritual pursuit, namely love?   
 
 

[BC]

I must disagree with an open marriage being valid.  It does not work based on my direct experience and what a family counselor told me.  If it does not work, it is not valid.  It is fun trying it after a long marriage has grown stale, yet it does not resolve the underlying issue that someone wants affection from someone outside the family.
 
It may work for some marriages, yet most IMO will suffer.
 
Did RWD ever try to define the ultimate spiritual pursuit, namely love?   

Gator,

Albeit my example was at the 'odd' end of the scale, but 'some' is a pretty big word, often used and accepted here as proper justification for general actions.

As to love being the ultimate spiritual pursuit, that is certainly a question that can be debated forever.

Lets use another example.  Is the love between myself and my children the same as the love between myself and my spouse?  To me, it is with the only differentiating 'distraction' being that sexual relations are usually involved with a spouse.

Of course in the beginning of any man woman relationship sex and physical attraction is a huge, even overwhelming part of the equation, with 'love' slowly building as the importance of sex moves to the background, whereas with children that 'love' evolves between conception and birth and remains a primary part of the relationship.

I can also agree that love can be built with others, i.e. friends or even religion but that is also usually a long process that typically is not present with the fast trac AM/RW marriage.

[Jumper]

I do know far better than to debate a RW..  DP lol
but for lack of anything better to do at the moment.
 
 

Fact:  being pragmatic,on the womans part, would not have  helped a bit in the small sample group you refer to here (or RWG)

     

Thats an opinion. Not a fact.

as presented , it is indeed as factual as we can reasonably get?
 
.
You mentioned this very group,as a justification of your theory.
Lets keep it simple:
 
The women married *wealty men*(well documented here and at RWG ,by poll,so as factual as we can get)
yet you point out they mostly all divorced. (i'm not sure that is fact ,but we are taking your word for it arnt we?)
 
Since the men were and are indeed far above average (fact) a Pragmatic or *romantic* approach would not matter , (fact) in this particular case study.
 
If you can suggest how being pragamatic ,as you advise ,
would have helped ,when they were already marrying men of means, i'm all ears?

Your example in this case was simply a poor one to use,
but instead of accepting that , you want to debate it,
such is a forum..
but don't expect others to not challenge it?
 
Relax, DP -
it doesn't mean your theory or approach arn't valid, it just meansd this small sample group was a poor example.
 

I have been on this board long enough to know what I am talking about.

DP- The *i've been around long enough*
 to validate an opinion is odd.
It either stands on its own merit or not.
 
I've nothing agaisnt someone being pragmatic ,
I just dont see it ,on average , as being any more likely to result in a long term marriage ,
and have seen no facts to support that.
 
 
If you want to go for being around long enough,
,  I remember your first post at RWG..
sio i'm sure you have..
I was a moderator there years before you joined,
was also on the old Brahama and st johns lists..
 
pretty sure i've seen the same results you have,
just not the same conclusions.
 
 
 
 

[Donna_Pedro]

A cold heart woman who suddenly become an emotional and sentimental girl as just she discovers how big is the cake will be not only a kill lover for but i will throw her away her very quickly.
/quote]

I am sorry you had to waste so many words. A cake, as I mentioned before on several occasions, (but you conveniently missed it) - is not just money. Its a combination of personality traits, evaluated objectively and material situation.  A man is not worth just the assets he owns, but also abilities he possesses.  But I realize that this small addition destroys your  argumentation,  and kicks you off your high horse, so, if you want to ignore it again - please feel free.

[Donna_Pedro]

 
DP- The *i've been around long enough*
 to validate an opinion is odd.
It either stands on its own merit or not.   

Why? You, I am sure, appreciate experience in any other part of life. You would  prefer a doctor who have been around long enough, rather than a newly graduate. It does not mean that this doctor is always right, but his opinion, as a rule, weighs more, compared to an intern. 
 

I've nothing agaisnt someone being pragmatic ,
I just dont see it ,on average , as being any more likely to result in a long term marriage ,
and have seen no facts to support that.

OK, not fact. In my expert opinion,    as a person who have been around for 10 years and participated, along with RWG, RWD on a whole bunch of russian women and general immigrant forums, increase in  pragmatic approach for international marriages is a must. There is always someone who would tell his (her) own romantic love story, to contradict this conclusion and it all comes down to the point that reliable statistical facts are hard to come by when we are talking about inter-personal relationships, so yes, its just an opinion.
 

If you want to go for being around long enough,
,  I remember your first post at RWG..
sio i'm sure you have..

Seriously? no. But I do remember I had to give Gator my phone number to prove that I am really a russian woman, not an american journalist. 
 

[Gator]

  Seriously? no. But I do remember I had to give Gator my phone number to prove that I am really a russian woman, not an american journalist. 

 
 
I forgot that.  Almost 10 years ago.  Now it comes back. 
 
Yes, the regulars at RWG  were questioning this "Donna Pedro character" as to whether she was a RW or even a she.  "No RW would behave in this manner.  She must be a feminist-journalist, falsely describing herself as a RW to uncover a story about crazy middle aged men chasing young Russian girls."  I recall a couple of experts describing DP's imperfect English as fabricated to resemble a non-English native, selecting a small phrase or word to illustrate that a RW would never write such. 
 
After talking with Donna Pedro, I recall writing to the RWG skeptics that although DP is not the RW of your dreams, maybe she represents the inner core of that outwardly sweet RW who is saying the soft words you want to hear.  A very smart RW warned me on my first trip that RW are sweet on the outside but strong as forged steel on the inside.  Many have by nature a survivor instinct, for sure pragmatic. 
 
IMO Donna feels love but also tempers such feelings with some sensible considerations. I believe such women make determined, valuable partners to face together the bumps in the road of life.  And while not 24-7 romantic Cinderellas, they still can be wild in the sack.

[OlgaH]

Donna_Pedro,

below are your posts about cake, cherry, love... OK, later somehow you explained your "cake"

What kind of love you are talking about in your posts? What is love in your own definition?

Because to me love with it's important integral parts as trust and faith always has a solid base that is personal characteristic and his views that coincide with mine.  It means I love person because I know him well to love or I don't love him because I know him well not to love.

So what is love-cherry in your opinion that can not be secured, dries out and dies?

Right. Because its a common misconception - people say that they are looking to get married and have a family, but what they really want is love (or worse - sex).  And love is a devious thing. It is unstable, confusing etc, its all those things that you can not rely on in a family.  Dont take me wrong, love is good. But its a cherry on top of a cake, not the whole cake. Cakes without cherries might be bland, but without a cake,, a cherry is useless, it dries out and dies. So I am talking about a cake here, not about a cherry. 

 But since love is too unreliable to build a family solely on it (especially love to a person that all you know of is something that he himself chooses to reveal), and relationships are still in the making (at best) when a woman arrives to live here, the only reliable thing that can be somewhat (somewhat!) predicted ahead of time is a man's potential financial stability. What I suggest   to women is what we call -" take off  pink glasses" and get as much info as they can before engaging in this journey.

 

 But somehow I would prefer to go over these options knowing that a man I am married to, though might not be the love of all my life, but is good in all important ways...
 

 

 But this surely does not have anything to do with love, does it? I mean, you dont need to be in love to figure out that a person is decent?  I can objectively evaluate person's reliability, capability, generosity, kindness.  I can figure out if we have things in common without being in love.  Love is over-rated, really. Its good if it is present, when it does not interfere with reason. Like a cherry on top of a pie. But it is a pie that matters not a cherry.
 

 
 

 Being in love with your husband is cool. Marrying  a man because of love is purely stupid, but well.. sht happens.
 

 
 

Only calculating approach gives you a little bit more material comfort. Which I prefer to secure for myself upfront, since love can not be secured.
 

I'm sincerely glad that your "cherries" did not dry out and die on your cake.

What would you say about a woman who marries a man without love making her priority to secure her material comfort and after when love doesn't come to her and her cherries dry out and die she decides to divorce him and more over to grab a piece of material comfort?
 

[Donna_Pedro]

But is it really worth to gamble with feelings? and find yourself in a situation when you are thousands miles away from your country, when you left your job or studies, went through the fiancee visa process and now you have to choose "to return home or get your GC anyway living with a person you don't even like, then go through the divorce..."

Gamble with feelings? Feelings are a gamble, by definition. I would prefer to have a clear understanding what I am getting myself into before I  find myself in a situation when i am thousand miles away from home etc... If love did not come?  I would have a nice, stable, dependable person to live with, excellent father to my child and, lets not forget -  a fairly comfortable life style.

Do you remember Anastasia King's story. Her mother was so obsessed with the idea of her daughter living in the US and box#1

She should have checked a few more boxes too.

[OlgaH]

 I would prefer to have a clear understanding what I am getting myself into before I  find myself in a situation when i am thousand miles away from home etc...

So do I 

If love did not come?  I would have a nice, stable, dependable person to live with, excellent father to my child and, lets not forget -  a fairly comfortable life style.

If love did not come?  What would your reasons be not to love him if he is a nice, stable, dependable  person, excellent, father and a fairly comfortable life style?
 

She should have checked a few more boxes too.

Absolutely agree, as I said she was too obsessed with another box. 

[Patagonie]

Donna_Pedro,

below are your posts about cake, cherry, love... OK, later somehow you explained your "cake"

What kind of love you are talking about in your posts? What is love in your own definition?

Because to me love with it's important integral parts as trust and faith always has a solid base that is personal characteristic and his views that coincide with mine.  It means I love person because I know him well to love or I don't love him because I know him well not to love.

So what is love-cherry in your opinion that can not be secured, dries out and dies?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I'm sincerely glad that your "cherries" did not dry out and die on your cake.

What would you say about a woman who marries a man without love making her priority to secure her material comfort and after when love doesn't come to her and her cherries dry out and die she decides to divorce him and more over to grab a piece of material comfort?

Thank you OlgaH to have done the job