Realistic Expectations

[Gator]

In the old days at RWG I recall a psycholgist introducing me to the relatively new term limerence to describe what men were feeling when they said they were in love with a RW (typically after one week together).  He was trying to help the men understand the transient process at work in their minds. 
Limerence has the following symptoms   (http://doctorogenki.tripod.com/smartsex/id18.html) :   

* Intrusive thinking about the object of your passionate desire (the limerent object or LO-will be used throughout article-), who is a possible sexual partner.
 
* Acute longing for reciprocation.

 * Dependency of mood on LO's actions or, more accurately, your interpretation of LO's actions with respect to the probability of reciprocation.

 * Inability to react limerently to more than one person at a time (exceptions occur when limerence is at low ebb -- early on or in the last fading).

 * Some fleeting and transient relief from unrequited limerent passion through vivid imagination of action by LO that means reciprocation.

 * Fear of rejection and sometimes incapacitating but always unsettling shyness in LO's presence, especially in the beginning and whenever uncertainty strikes.

 * Intensification through adversity (at least, up to a point).

 * Acute sensitivity to any act or thought or condition that can be interpreted favorably, and extraordinary ability to devise or invent "reasonable" explanations for why the neutrality that the disinterested observer might see is in fact a sign of hidden passion in the LO.

 * An aching of the "heart" (a region in the center front of the chest) when uncertainty is strong.

 * Buoyancy (a feeling of walking on air) when reciprocation seems evident.

 * A general intensity of feeling that leaves other concerns in the background.

 * A remarkable ability to emphasize what is truly admirable in LO and to avoid dwelling on the negative, even to respond with a compassion for the negative and render it, emotionally if not perceptually, into another positive attribute.
 
Limerance is transient.  "Limerence for a particular LO does cease under one of the following conditions: consummation -- in which the bliss of reciprocation is either blended into a lasting love or replaced by less positive feelings; starvation -- in which even limerent sensitivity to signs of hope is useless against the onslaught of evidence that LO does not return the limerence; transformation -- in which limerence is transferred to a new LO."
In summary, limerence is "crazy love."   So when people accuse DP of not being in love, do they mean she skipped the "crazy love."  If so, it certainly seems that she found lasting love, i. e., true love.

[OlgaH]

In summary, limerence is "crazy love."   

Limerence is not a love (or "crazy love"), as Andres Agmo in his book " Functional and Dysfunctional Sexual Behavior: A Synthesis of Neuroscience and Comparative Psychology" proposed: "the state of limerence is the conscious experience of sexual incentive motivation"
http://books.google.com/books?id=mmJjj6UvB9YC&pg=PA172&dq=Agmo+limerence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lzkgT6jEGKrq0gHt8aUH&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[OlgaH]

I agree that love is irrational (based on instincts) and not rational (based on data and analysis). 

Personally, I don have in my "book" such term as "irrational love" I prefer to call it as it is: sexual attraction, lust, emotional attraction, infatuation, obsession - possession (in regards to sociopathic types with controlling issues)

To me the true love appears and develops on the conscious and intellectual attraction level. It is a bond of beliefs, values, expectations, ideas, goals and so on with inalienable condition where partners challenge each other, where sexual attraction and emotional attraction is still a part but conscious and controllable.

Nevertheless, I am inclined to believe that most RW experiencing the intuitive reaction called love have already factored into their internal equation some subconscious data that suggests the man is not penniless.

I would not call it "internal equation some subconscious data". It is conscious observation and conclusion.

[Muzh]

Do you use the word "contract" as if it were definitive?  I learned in my marriages that any agreement is renegotiable on a frequent basis.  Things change.

Contract. Social contract. All have their stipulations. Some are iron clad while others are flexible as long as the demand is met.

[BC]

In summary, limerence is "crazy love."   So when people accuse DP of not being in love, do they mean she skipped the "crazy love."  If so, it certainly seems that she found lasting love, i. e., true love.

Yes, I remember that term, even the effects thereof in times past.  What a mess... LOL  Maybe that's why I can share some of DP's sentiments and opinions on the matter without feeling force fed.

[OlgaH]

Yes, I remember that term, even the effects thereof in times past.  What a mess... LOL  Maybe that's why I can share some of DP's sentiments and opinions on the matter without feeling force fed.

BC, it depends on a definition of love, and people do have different definitions and understanding, and yes, some people confuse limerence with love. 

[GQBlues]

In the old days at RWG I recall a psycholgist introducing me to the relatively new term limerence to describe what men were feeling when they said they were in love with a RW (typically after one week together).  He was trying to help the men understand the transient process at work in their minds....

IIRC, his name is Richard and lived somewhere in the midwest. Went by the handle RKN77 (RWD). 2 daughters, I believe. He went to Ukraine and had a short relationship with a gal. I think Starlitz accompanied him on both of his trips. I though JB got to know him fairly well as there were some sort of association that transpired between them. Richard even went as far as learning the language. I also thought he was friends with a doctor who lived in Las Vegas, whom also used to post here and on RWG.
 
I don't recall whatever happened to him after the break-up. Maybe like ScottJay, a very successful lawyer from Los Angeles (friends with TomT?), who also was a good guy, wised up and gave up on this endeavor altogether.
 
Overall great guys!

[Donna_Pedro]

I guess you don't know men psyche very well. His transparency will show eventually, when he doesn't get his on demand. I promise you many guys here will agree on this.

Not sure what you are talking about. MAy be you could explain with an example? The way I understand it - we both are in this relationship willingly, by choice, not by force. He does not get his on demand? Fine. He is free to go look for someone who would get it to him. I have the same right. We dont demand. We discuss.

[BC]

IIRC, his name is Richard and lived somewhere in the midwest. Went by the handle RKN77 (RWD). 2 daughters, I believe. He went to Ukraine and had a short relationship with a gal. I think Starlitz accompanied him on both of his trips. I though JB got to know him fairly well as there were some sort of association that transpired between them. Richard even went as far as learning the language. I also thought he was friends with a doctor who lived in Las Vegas, whom also used to post here and on RWG.
 

Very vague flashbacks here.. RKN does ring a bell.

The term limerence has been used by a few, IIRC my first encounter is when Dan used it in a somewhat similar discussion back in 2006.   http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg36610#msg36610  Short thread, but maybe interesting for some to explore.

1 page vs 17, but still similar topics, after all these years still up for debate.

Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence for full details....

[OlgaH]

Valerio Albisetti in his articles on limerence and love also noticed that when people confuse limerence (a sexual attraction) with love believing that they found a big true love of their life and more over accept it as a prove and correctness of relationship, this just serves as a prove that these people don't know and are not capable to communicate and build a relationship in different ways. Limerence is a state of an immature human nature on an instinctive level , when love is a maturity. His book "Love, how to stay together for life"

[Maxx2]

IIRC, his name is Richard and lived somewhere in the midwest. Went by the handle RKN77 (RWD). 2 daughters, I believe. He went to Ukraine and had a short relationship with a gal. I think Starlitz accompanied him on both of his trips. I though JB got to know him fairly well as there were some sort of association that transpired between them. Richard even went as far as learning the language. I also thought he was friends with a doctor who lived in Las Vegas, whom also used to post here and on RWG.
 
I don't recall whatever happened to him after the break-up. Maybe like ScottJay, a very successful lawyer from Los Angeles (friends with TomT?), who also was a good guy, wised up and gave up on this endeavor altogether.
 
Overall great guys!

That was Lysander. Him and Cameraguy, "Marty" (Emmy award winning documentary film cinematographer) are friends and ardent Ron Paul Supporters.


Scott Jay (Scott "T". ) was married to a Bond girl who has a more famous older sister, a British actress of note. Scott and the ex have a daughter named "T" who is probably a teenager by now. Scott gave me some contact info on himself for me to check him out.

[Maxx2]

The term limerence has been used by a few, IIRC my first encounter is when Dan used it in a somewhat similar discussion back in 2006.   http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1804.msg36610#msg36610  Short thread, but maybe interesting for some to explore.

Here is some of my wisdom from 5 years ago

Well there is 'odd good' and 'odd bad'. I would guess the percentage of 'odd good' on this board is in the high nineties. I would call these people colorful until they got to be about JB or Turboguy's age. Then I would call them ecentric. IMO some of the best people I know are on these message boards. My list of the others, the demented, is a short one. Usually these people are so whacked out they don't have the ability to stick around (there was one recently here). They may have gotten themselves a MOB who is either as anti-social as they are or is in chains of one sort or the other.

Maxx

Turboguy liked it.

[GQBlues]

That was Lysander. Him and Cameraguy, "Marty" (Emmy award winning documentary film cinematographer) are friends and ardent Ron Paul Supporters.

Yes, that's it! Lysander. Marty won an Emmy? Mind sending me a PM for which documentary, Maxx? I remember Marty having strong conviction that aliens not only exist, but are living amongst us. He's a very cool, smart guy.

Scott Jay (Scott "T". ) was married to a Bond girl who has a more famous older sister, a British actress of note. Scott and the ex have a daughter named "T" who is probably a teenager by now. Scott gave me some contact info on himself for me to check him out.

 
I remember we talked about this on the phone once. My guess then was it was Rachel Weisz, then I changed it Jane Seymour (tennis teacher/Bond gal et a - reading BC's link, I thought for a moment Scott Jay is/was Pee Wee). I remember him going to Russia and coming into the typical soviet style 2 room apartment to visit a gal, during a period he was on the market for a hilltop multi-million dollar mansion here in LA. Did TomT's son ever work for him, do you know?

[Maxx2]

Yes, that's it! Lysander. Marty won an Emmy? Mind sending me a PM for which documentary, Maxx? I remember Marty having strong conviction that aliens not only exist, but are living amongst us. He's a very cool, smart guy.

 
 
I remember we talked about this on the phone once. My guess then was it was Rachel Weisz, then I changed it Jane Seymour (tennis teacher/Bond gal et a - reading BC's link, I thought for a moment Scott Jay is/was Pee Wee). I remember him going to Russia and coming into the typical soviet style 2 room apartment to visit a gal, during a period he was on the market for a hilltop multi-million dollar mansion here in LA. Did TomT's son ever work for him, do you know?

I never got the info from Marty on what film or I forgot. I know he did something on the Gulags of Russia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serena_Scott_Thomas
 Note the name of her ex spouse

Dr. Molly Warmflash is a fictional character from the James Bond film The World Is Not Enough. She is played by actress Serena Scott Thomas.
Molly is an attractive, red haired physician who serves to MI6 agents such as Bond. In the film she diagnoses Bond with a dislocated collar bone and advises James Bond to stay out of action for weeks. But Bond will have none of it whatsoever and seduces Dr. Warmflash into clearing him as fit for duty.
She tries to resist, but she ultimately allows James Bond to unzip her skirt, and strip away her blouse, leaving her in only her panties, bra and high heels. Dr. Warmflash relents but she warns Bond that he has to promise to call her this time. In a deleted scene after stripping her of everything but her underwear James pushes a button on the chair, making the chair go back and then precedes to make out with Dr. Warmflash. He later steps out into tbe hallway and throws his cast onto a knight saying "things we do for England".
Later Dr. Warmflash is seen giving a briefing on Bond's nemesis, Renard at the MI6 headquarters in Scotland, explaining in more specific detail what the bullet in his brain has actually done to him. While it will kill him eventually, Renard will grow stronger and stronger until he dies, and can currently push himself further than any man due to his inability to feel any type of physical pain, as well as any senses.
Actress Serena Scott-Thomas was given the option of using a body double when her character Dr. Molly Warmflash disrobes but the plucky thesp declined, deciding if she was going to be in a love scene with James Bond, she was going to do it properly.

I remember Scott Jay sent me a contact letter he sent to a RW. He mentioned he lived in Malibu California on a ranch overlooking the Pacific ocean. He mentioned he had a couple of horses and like to hunt with them. Coyotes I think. He had some hunting hounds. The RW wrote him back and said that he should consider selling his ranch and horses and buy an apartment in the city. For a better life you know, On his second attempt he used Pavel instead of Stirlitz. He found a real sultry hottie. We he got there (Ukraine) and met her he noticed she had the worst teeth he ever seen in his life. Buck teeth, crooked, yellow and gapped something Pavel failed to warn him about. He left Ukraine the next day.

I didn't note anything much about TomT's son and Scott Jay and work. I think there was some connection.

[OlgaH]

He mentioned he lived in Malibu California on a ranch overlooking the Pacific ocean. He mentioned he had a couple of horses and like to hunt with them. Coyotes I think. He had some hunting hounds. The RW wrote him back and said that he should consider selling his ranch and horses and buy an apartment in the city. For a better life you know

 

[GQBlues]

...I remember Scott Jay sent me a contact letter he sent to a RW. *He mentioned he lived in Malibu California on a ranch overlooking the Pacific ocean. He mentioned he had a couple of horses and like to hunt with them. Coyotes I think. He had some hunting hounds. The RW wrote him back and said that he should consider selling his ranch and horses and buy an apartment in the city. For a better life you know*, On his second attempt he used Pavel instead of Stirlitz. He found a real sultry hottie. We he got there (Ukraine) and met her **he noticed she had the worst teeth he ever seen in his life. Buck teeth, crooked, yellow and gapped something Pavel failed to warn him about. He left Ukraine the next day**.....

 
LMAO! You're always good for a laugh, Maxx. My recollection was when he went to Russia and I'm not so sure if this was before or after Ukraine. He wrote on his T/R that he met with a beautiful gal and he always knew she had a young son. When he finally arrived to their apartment and met the family, I think he started to write in details what the son was doing the entire time.
 
 
IIRC, the kid had some mental disorder of some sort, and he basically stayed under the table giving Scott the heebee-jeebees then the kid pee'd on the floor, or something. I don't remember exactly, but it was funny as hell. Sad in a way, too. The entire time the family pretty much ignored everything and he envisioned how this would all play out if he ever married the woman. LOL.
 
 
I think after these two harrowing experiences, he likely decided American women aren't so bad after all. Or maybe he married a Vietnamese gal for all we know.

[Gator]

Scott jay was always good for a laugh.  He had a great wit and was not shy to express it.  He would start a new thread under a false name and spin a fabricated yarn about sexual abuse or something of that nature.  He played the part of the central character and responding to questions using a writing style associated with the character (e. g., a RW).   After a while we would catch him but not before he had hooked many of us.
 
I spoke to him once.  He was  a man of means.   He said he collected antiques of the Federal period.  I know a few things about this period so I asked him an esoteric question.  He knew the answer.       
Does anyone remember the Gameranger?  This guy had some riveting posts such as hanging out with a covey of nude models on a large rock along the Black Sea coast,   taking out a huge Ukrainian bodyguard with some Special Ops moves, etc.  Few believed him, yet we ate it up because he wrote as if he  were Tom Clancy. 

[Maxx2]

I remember him writing about going to Western Union to send some money and he was disgusted with all the riff raff there in line ahead of him. He had fantasies in running them over in his big black luxury SUV. He wasn't in my opinion the kind of man well suited to take on an immigrant family. Cultural differences didn't delight or amuse him much.


He was 59 years old and in a rather hurry to close a deal before the big 6 Oh. His grandfather at age 95 or something died at the hands of a jealous husband (I think he fell out of a window trying to escape) and he used that story in his letters to RW to hint at his virility, youthful energy and potential for a long life. I seen his photo and mentioned on the board he looked like the actor Peter Coyote which seemed to please him.


The RW with the young son was before the Ukrainian woman. He had Stirilitz's wife travel a good distance from Ukraine to Russia to size her up. Both women couldn't stand each other. 

[TheTraveler]

I remember Scott Jay sent me a contact letter he sent to a RW. He mentioned he lived in Malibu California on a ranch overlooking the Pacific ocean. He mentioned he had a couple of horses and like to hunt with them. Coyotes I think. He had some hunting hounds. The RW wrote him back and said that he should consider selling his ranch and horses and buy an apartment in the city. For a better life you know,

Muscovites... 

[Maxx2]

     
Does anyone remember the Gameranger?  This guy had some riveting posts such as hanging out with a covey of nude models on a large rock along the Black Sea coast,   taking out a huge Ukrainian bodyguard with some Special Ops moves, etc.  Few believed him, yet we ate it up because he wrote as if he  were Tom Clancy.

Can't say I do.


There was a guy named Lear pilot before my time. Cranky as all heck I was told.

[Maxx2]

Muscovites... 

Most Rooska women think the suburbs are the country

[Maxx2]

Scott jay was always good for a laugh.  He had a great wit and was not shy to express it.  He would start a new thread under a false name and spin a fabricated yarn about sexual abuse or something of that nature.  He played the part of the central character and responding to questions using a writing style associated with the character (e. g., a RW).   After a while we would catch him but not before he had hooked many of us.
 
I spoke to him once.  He was  a man of means.   He said he collected antiques of the Federal period.  I know a few things about this period so I asked him an esoteric question.  He knew the answer.       

I liked Scott Jay. He had a false identity story going about being a Las Vegas casino owner waiting for a visa/ticket scammer supposedly going to be arriving down at the airport for him.

[GQBlues]

I liked Scott Jay. He had a false identity story going about being a Las Vegas casino owner waiting for a visa/ticket scammer supposedly going to be arriving down at the airport for him.

I remember that one...it was actually (supposedly) in Reno and not Vegas. The cowboy with a 10-gallon hat in tight jeans who owns a casino. He said he paid for the woman's ticket and he was told he needed to drive all the way to SF airport so he can pick her up. Posed as a newbie, he posted how excited he was and he wanted to know from everyone what would be a great surprise arrival present for his soon-to-be Russian wife...and everyone was trying to convince him it was just a scam. Then he started arguing it isn't so...I got suckered into that one along with everyone else...
 
I think Spencer was in on it to try and show everyone how tough it was for any newbie posting in the forum...
 
As for Strlitz wife, I remember her too. I remember when Strlitz was so in love and married her, then started posting her picture fairly freely (They even chapereoned Richard on his date with his gal when she told Richard to buy a yatch for their vacation)...then I think 6 months later, or some time soon after, they separated. Next thing you know, he was supporting long hair and single again. Crazy time.
 
Chicagoguy had offerred me GameRanger's classic T/R cause he said he saved it during the time everyone started doubting my T/R saying it had a GameRanger flavor to it. I didn't know who GR at the time, much less his T/R. I think it was Bean who alluded to it anyway...LOL. I wish I was able to read GR's T/R. I heard it even had a nasty knife fight in it.

[Muzh]

Not sure what you are talking about. MAy be you could explain with an example? The way I understand it - we both are in this relationship willingly, by choice, not by force. He does not get his on demand? Fine. He is free to go look for someone who would get it to him. I have the same right. We dont demand. We discuss.

Didn't you just said on another thread that you discuss BUT always get what you want?

[Donna_Pedro]

Muscovites... 

I was describing this situation to my husband this morning. Now that I have lived here for 10 years, I know what the guy meant was probably a few million dollars water front mansion with stables. But 10 years ago, I would say the same thing - why do I need a house in a village? Better an apartment in a city. Watetfront property still holds no value for me whatsoever. I accept that it does have value for people in this market, but for me - forest-front or mountain-front sounds better. Here, in Tx, they actually dye water artificially and call these artificial bright green lakes waterfront property.