Possible Abusive Situation

[r0gera]

I don't think I did label him as an abuser if so it was not meant in that way.  However I would say that with the limited info provided there would be red flags about possible abuse.  

Withholding  "basic things she needs just to get by - food, feminine products, underwear, socks," was the information provided. 

Withholding food is abuse.. if it in fact has occured. None of us here know whether it is true or not. 

Danack needs to sober up and grow up.  If he lacks the verbal skills to express himself in a rational manner and put forward a reasonable discussion perhaps he shouldn't post.  I don't see anyone trying to throw an insult your way up to this point that is. 

But I guess we can't keep the children off the keyboards.    LOL.. and I hate agreeing with Leslie but I do... 

[Daknack]

Dont be bitter because I used your poor and flawed logic against you.  Rather learn from it and construct a better debate. 

BTW, The TV show about MAXX, and GOLDEN25 getting screwed is on tonight, but why bother they should take thier screw job happily right? 

[BillyB]

Rando, After reading and hearing about many results of domestic men and foreign women that don't get along, I believe a man can get arrested for threatening deportation. A man can get thrown in jail if a woman makes a 911 call about a domestic dispute. It doesn't matter if she's telling the truth or not. It's an uphill battle to be a man these days but the best solution for a man who gets friction from his woman is to walk away and never look back. The same for a woman getting abused. Leave the man forever.

According to the UCIS web site a woman "out of status" can remain here if she is abused which could amount to anything these days. If her husband doesn't take care of her paperwork, then that is abuse. Even if she doesn't get an immmigration attorney, she will be able to stay in America and there's plenty of organizations to help her with that if she doesn't have the funds for the lawyer.

People tend to look at the statement(if true) that the woman just wants basic things such as food and clothes but remember what Ken posted from the beginning "she is willing to just go on back home to Ukraine, but she has nothing left there to go back to." That statement right there is telling me her husband is providing her with more than she had in the Ukraine. How can she be starving if she cooks everyday?????? If she is not getting food and is starving, she should cry out "ABUSE or NEGLECT" with no reservations. The "borderline" word is what's used here. If you are confident you are getting treated like a slave, say it with confidence and leave the slave owner as quickly as possible.

Without more info, I don't know who to believe but I don't see any reason to assume she's in a life threatening situation needing rescue. A good marriage counselor will tell the man to take the lead and get her paperwork in order and provide for his family's needs and tell the woman to do her part too. For all we know both the husband and wife might have thought they found gold and they both turned out to be lemons that nobody would want and nobody could be proud to have as a spouse. Now, according to this thread, both husband and wife are now complaining big time. Maybe he wants a slave, maybe she's gathering up sympathy and support to move on to upgrade her man. How do we know the desires and motives of these people?  Somewhere between his and her views of the situation could be the truth.

[r0gera]

That was actually an honest response and something I have considered in this process.  Not something fabricated for the sake of argument.  Maybe you have a hard time comprehending it but it is because I own up to my commitments and responsibilities regardless of whether the other party does.   I would offer to pay her expenses back home or to help with the process so she can work to support herself.  I would never dump someone in a strange land with no ability to gain legal employment even if I hated them. 

If a lady manages to get one over on me...  that would be my mistake.   I understand the motivation in a case like that and can actually appreciate it in an odd sort of way. 

Seems like there isn't much point to attempt to insult another poster on the board for attempting to express their honest opinion or ask an honest question.  Healthy debate can be great but why drag it down with insults? 

[Jet]

....defending this kind of lame behavior as abuse makes you part of the problem and the fact that the law protects this lame behavior doesnt make it right.....

 

Unless I missed something, Lelie suggested where this case might fall under the current law. The law protecting lame behavior may not be right, but it is still the law. You and DaKnack can complain about the current law long and hard, but consider the fact that groups like NOW have had a cohesive well funded lobby in place for 30+ years already. This is the reality of what you are going up against, like it or not, and b!tchin' about it on an internet message board gets you absolutely nowhere, period. Gather up a couple hundred thousand "like minded" men, get them all pointed in the same direction, build up a couple million dollars you can toss around "K" street in DC and in 20 or 30 years you may actually affect some positive change. It can be done, but don't dilude yourselves into thinking that merely whining about a bad law is going to garner any positive results. So you have to ask yourself "Is THIS cause really THAT important to ME?". If it is, great, go for it! I wish you all the success with that. If it's not something you're ready to dedicate your life to for the next 20 or 30 years, quit complaining..................

[Rando]

No expects to change the law JET....

I am talking about the namby pamby guys on this site who cant see past their own nose and jump to defend the poor helpless RW....you know the girl who gets no food ...but at the same time has to do all the dishes......no bells are going off in your head about that though right????

Thats what I thought....

Still trying to make a point when there is none to be made I see...

 

 

[Jet]

Alright, help me out here.....Are you really going to tell me that you disagree with any of this?

 

This lady needs to see an immigration attorney.

[/size][/font]

Advise her NOT to believe in the advice given by Russian women friends or from posting a "help me quick" thread on RWA.

[line]

[/size][/font]If what you have posted about this guy is true then this lady need not worry about her immigration status.

[line]
The embittered feminists who run such establishments are often motivated by revenge rather than problem solving.

The law sides with the social workers who created that chart..../....the law will judge a man's behavior on those criteria.

If you made the comments in your post to your wife in front of a witness it would constitute sufficient proof in a court of law that you are an abuser. 

The idea that a guy can send his wife back to Russia(or Ukraine)  is a complete fiction. You have no right whatsoever to interfere with your spouse's immigration status. [/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

 

I posted the above quoted material because your prior posts (and DaKnack's) suggest that Leslie is the "prime offender" and the head "namby pamby". We are not getting (and will never get) the FULL story here. Up til now I have reserved comment for that very reason. However, IF she is in a situation where there are warning signs of possible abuse, the above quoted text is rock solid advice, and quite frankly, does not seem to be biased in one direction or the other, IMHO.

As far as the "send her back" crack, as a married man, you know damn good and well that USCIS will not even speak to you unless your wife gets on the phone and tells them she approves. Your ability to independently gather information or interject any input as "the petitioner" ceased when her visa expired.

 

 

[BC]

Any man experiencing relationship problems that even thinks about 'shipping her back' should not have brought her 'here' in the first place.  The faults lie clearly with the man.

When it comes to AM bringing RW into their lives it IS at the choice of the man and as such he bears ALL responsibility.  Either he made an unwise choice, misrepresented himself or did not have what was necessary to keep the relationship together..  no if's ands or butts..

Here we are discussing a case where the woman expressed a desire to return to her home.  A man living up to his responsibilities would provide her with a ticket and the means to re-establish her life as it was before.

You can tell me all day how terrible these GCG women are. Even if what you tell me is completely true and accurate, it does not change the faults that caused the situation in the first place.

Forget your 'bleeding liberal' and 'conservative coffin' crappola.. it's all common sense, unfortunately often overlooked amidst the hormonal 'rush'.

[Daknack]

Dumbass #3 Posting it seems.

"When it comes to AM bringing RW into their lives it IS at the choice of the man and as such he bears ALL responsibility."

Really?  SOmeone held a gun to the RW head?  Maybe the converse is equally true that a RW that agrees to come to the US bears full responsability for her actions.  Therfor if she ends up with an abuser its all her fault and well deserved.  Frankly she should get another beating for complaining, after all she said I do so its her fault.  She got on the plane here.

Hey dumbass, it should occur to you that marriage is a 2 way street, and it is up to BOTH to have some responsibility for thier MUTUAL choice.  Furthermore I recommend that you read "reason and arguement" by Richard Feldman because your debate is so flawed it is an embarassment for me to have reversed it in the above paragraph to demonstrate that your an idiot.

[Turboguy]

Play nice boys.   Personally there is a universal rule that can be followed here.  Everything is always the other persons fault.  We are all perfect and never make mistakes.   Therefore the whole blame rests on the shoulders of whichever partner is not the one who belongs to RWD.  

[Daknack]

Play nice boys.   Personally there is a universal rule that can be followed here.  Everything is always the other persons fault.  We are all perfect and never make mistakes.   Therefore the whole blame rests on the shoulders of whichever partner is not the one who belongs to RWD.  

 

LOL good laugh old bean.   You said my the point Ive been trying to beat into their head alot more nicely.  Then again I am evil.

[Leslie]

The first point I want to make is that there is a difference between personal opinion and legal opinion.

In my personal opinion the law concerning spousal abuse is seriously biased against the man.  I don't think this is fair.  I in no way agree with the views of the hard line feminists who drafted IMBA (2005) Act.  I would like to see these biased laws amended but IMHO they won't be changed in my lifetime.  The simple fact is that all the sucessful marriages (like my own and dozens of others on this board) pale to insignificance in the the public imagination when the tabloids get hold of a single abuse case.

I correctly described the current legal situation with respect to spousal abuse and USCIS procedures.  I gave reasonable advice to consult an immigration attorney. 

DaNack and Rando,

You have tried to discredit my advice with personal insult and "locker room" comment.  You don't like the message - so you insult the messenger.  More importantly you fail to separate your personal opinion from legal reality. 

I reckon every intelligent newcomer reading this thread will recognise your superior  knowledge and erudition on these matters.  Should they follow your advice they will have ample (cell) time to reflect on their veracity....

Ken,

I am sorry that this thread looks to be heading for the "No holds Barred" section.  It was not my intention to lead the discussion in this direction. 

 

[BC]

Daknack,

It would really help if you could read and understand my post.. preferrably at the same time.

Don't try to put AM/RW relationships on the same footing as AM/AW.. it just is not possible..  That's the keystone for the majority that seek RW.. unfair footing.  Fit that premise into Feldmans work and figure it out yourself.

Don't worry about fair play Turbo.. Daknack is Daknack.. His post is good for a chuckle and book tip but that 's about it  imho.

[Daknack]

The first point I want to make is that there is a difference between personal opinion and legal opinion.

In my personal opinion the law concerning spousal abuse is seriously biased against the man.  I don't think this is fair.  I in no way agree with the views of the hard line feminists who drafted IMBA (2005) Act.  I would like to see these biased laws amended but IMHO they won't be changed in my lifetime.  The simple fact is that all the sucessful marriages (like my own and dozens of others on this board) pale to insignificance in the the public imagination when the tabloids get hold of a single abuse case.

I correctly described the current legal situation with respect to spousal abuse and USCIS procedures.  I gave reasonable advice to consult an immigration attorney. 

DaNack and Rando,

You have tried to discredit my advice with personal insult and "locker room" comment.  You don't like the message - so you insult the messenger.  More importantly you fail to separate your personal opinion from legal reality. 

I reckon every intelligent newcomer reading this thread will recognise your superior  knowledge and erudition on these matters.  Should they follow your advice they will have ample (cell) time to reflect on their veracity....

Ken,

I am sorry that this thread looks to be heading for the "No holds Barred" section.  It was not my intention to lead the discussion in this direction. 

 

 

If your post previous to this had been posted solo, I would agree with you and complete it coupled with appology.  But your posts in this thread before it color it with a bias.  Perhaps the bias was gone by the time this was posted I dont know.  I still think you are taking sides especially when your advising the involvment of attorneys.  Once you advise that you have chosen a side, because we all know what happens after that.

[Daknack]

Daknack,

It would really help if you could read and understand my post.. preferrably at the same time.

Don't try to put AM/RW relationships on the same footing as AM/AW.. it just is not possible..  That's the keystone for the majority that seek RW.. unfair footing.  Fit that premise into Feldmans work and figure it out yourself.

Don't worry about fair play Turbo.. Daknack is Daknack.. His post is good for a chuckle and book tip but that 's about it  imho.

 

Relationships are relationships.  It does not matter if the woman comes from Russia, The US, or god damn Mars.

[Jooky]

Relationships are relationships.  It does not matter if the woman comes from Russia, The US, or god damn Mars.

Right on. I completely agree. The rest of this discussion reminds me of that movie Rashomon. Are we all reading the same words? Here's the original post:

My wife has made a friend here where the husband has essentially married her so he has someone to clean, do laundry, and cook for him and his teenage daughter.  They married in Ukraine, and she really had every intention of making a great relationship, but he is nothing like the guy he was when they met and spent time together in Ukraine.  What he has been doing is bordering on abuse, and it has been getting progressively worse in just months. 
  
  On one hand, she is willing to just go on back home to Ukraine, but she has nothing left there to go back to.  She's been wanting even basic things she needs just to get by - food, feminine products, underwear, socks, and he is not willing to spend a dime on her.  She is trying to find a way to get work just so she can afford her own things, but he hasn't been willing to help her get a Social Security Number, transportation(not even a bike which she is willing to use), and he is afraid he will lose his free housekeeping.
  
  After hearing the rude things he was saying about his wife, and even the things he was saying to my wife, part of me feels like beating the crap out of this user.  Anyway, years ago I remember seeing comments from some people that have helped other women going through things like this.  My advice is that she file for divorce, but since they married in Ukraine, I don't know how she can get things to work in her favor here.

No mention of this woman complaining about doing the dishes or housework. No where does it say that this man offered to "ship her back" or that she offered to return home.

This woman is complaining that her husband is not providing for her in the manner that she expected. In other words, she married a "greedy" man. So, she wants to work so she can buy what she wants. He doesn't want her to work because he's happy with her taking care of the house, so he doesn't lift a finger to help change the situation. That's the problem.

The bigger problem is what typically happens when two people marry without really knowing each other and for reasons other than love. The woman wanted a good provider (in other words, a man who will spend his money on her), and the man wanted a traditional woman (in other words, a woman to cook and clean for him). From what little information given it sounds like the man is not living up to his end of the deal. The woman is, but she is not happy doing so as she is not receiving her expected compensation.

We don't know this man's side of the story, but the original poster knows this man and claims he goes about saying rude things about his wife to the point that he needs his ass kicked. The guy sounds like a jerk to me.

Still, without knowing the full details I can't pity either husband or wife. It sounds like both went into a loveless and probably hasty marriage with other goals in mind. They made their bed, lie in it.

As far as recommendations: I recommend that she go home. She says there is nothing to go back to, but she must have some friends or family members who would help her out while she got back on her feet if her husband is not willing to do so. If not, then this probably isn't the first tough situation in her life and it won't be the last.

PS: If this guy isn't even buying food, then that means no cooking or doing dishes is required. The housework must be a breeze.



 

 

 

[BC]

Daknack,

I would tend to agree with you regarding relationships formed outside the MOB scene.

If all relationships were the same regardless, this board would have little purpose and meaning.  We would join a relationship forum instead.

'Normal' relationships don't start with meetings arranged by commercial entities.
'Normal' relationships don't begin with preconceived goals of marriage.
'Normal' relationships don't exist without a common language.
'Normal' relationships usually form between social and economic peers.
'Normal' relationships usually involve partners in the same generation.
'Normal' relationships usually don't involve immigration related issues.

Relationships jump-started in ways discussed here are anything but normal.

[BillyB]

I recommend that she go home. She says there is nothing to go back to, but she must have some friends or family members who would help her out while she got back on her feet if her husband is not willing to do so. If not, then this probably isn't the first tough situation in her life and it won't be the last.

Good suggestion unless she has a bad reputation she with her friends or family. When times are bad, we depend on our friends and family to lean on unless we run out of credit with them.

I do believe the woman feels she's being used as a housekeeper and is complaining about doing the dishes or housework. Even though the words are coming out of a her friend's mouth, it wouldn't be said if it wasn't an issue with the woman in question. I seriously doubt the man said he brought her here to be a maid instead of his wife. Some men may want a maid but they won't announce it.

Most likely both husband and wife feel they got the short end of the stick and both feel they are being used. Chances are the marriage isn't going to work out unless they both can sit down like adults and WANT the marriage to work. They can come and post their feelings anonymously and I'm sure the people here will want to help their marriage succeed.

[Turboguy]

BC, I like your post and I think you are right that the relationships that we deal with are not normal and that they do present a lot of challenges that most AM-AW relationships don't. 

I think too, we are dealing with very limited knowlege of the problems and some people are getting carried a bit away on things that may not even be at issue.  Every story has two sides.   My marriage was a long time ago.  If anyone heard both sides of the story they would be as far apart as you could ever want.  Here we have heard a tiny part of the wifes side of things.   I am sure there is another side but I think one thing we all agree on is there are problems.   Hopefully they will get worked out either by marriage councellers or divorce attorneys.   There are a lot of good people in this world and I am sure the gal will get help.   There is a pretty strong Russian community in most parts of the country and they are good at helping people in trouble.  

One of the nicest things when people need to call each other names is the PM feature.   I think everyone means well, I hope we can all say what we feel in a nice way.  It has been an interesting post.  Humm women from Mars.  Do the new laws apply to meeting women from Mars and which consulate handles those gals?

[Leslie]

Is advising a woman in this situation to see an immigration attorney biased?

Is advising someone to get qualified legal opinion on their immigration status taking sides??

Is it wrong to advise someone to find out their legal rights and obligations???

No. Not in a free democratic society.

IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS THE MOST COMMON MEANS OF MANIPULATING AN IMMIGRANT.

I know all about this because I have been through the US immigration process from begining to end myself.

In the current legal situation a guy better treat his immigrant wife like a fragile china doll.  The divorce and immigration laws are stacked in her favor.  A simple claim of abuse is sufficient to secure permanent residency.  No proof is required.

If she turns up at a woman's shelter with a black eye and her spouses skin cells under finger nails.  The guy is toast.  The social workers will ensure that.  Excluded from his own home by legal order, facing felony abuse charges, a jail term and a substantial divorce settlement.  His life will be ruined both socially and economically.  Under IMBA a guy does not get a second chance.  A convicted abuser cannot file for another K visa.

How does a woman engineer these circumstances?  Posting a help thread here is a great place to start -

http://www.russianwomenabroad.com/phpBB2/

There are women posting on RWA who have been there.  Done that. Got the old goat's "piske" nailed to a trophy board :huh: 

If you read Russian spend an evening browsing threads in the archive.  You might decide to switch to looking for an Asian bride

This is why I advised against going to social workers and RW boards....

A final point.  I think the guys making the chauvinist assessments are all single.  The married guys know better.  If you want a submissive 1950's type "Stepford wife"  marry a Chinese woman.  Any guy who thinks RW or UW are like this has been drinking the poisoned cool aid peddled by the agencies...

[Jooky]

I think that DaKnack's simple words are lost on some of you. I don't think he intended to open a discussion on what is a 'normal' relationship. Neither was he stating that all relationships are identical.

Less simply put:

We are discussing relationships which presumably are a bond between two grown and mature adults who both willingly entered the relationship. The burden of responsibility for the good or bad that comes from this relationship, regardless of how they met, what country they are from, or what differences they might have, falls upon both adults.

[Rando]

Leslie....

You are still missing every point ....you have quite a talent for it I see.

No one is looking for a 1950's woman...nor is that ever mentioned....this gal is complaining.........now what is she complaining about? And does that complaint rise to the level of needing a lawyer? I say NO....you say yes....

Neither party mentioned sending her back....although she said she would go ....but she is lying about that becasue she follows that up with the truth....she likes it here better..... I said we dont need this type of woman here....(because we have plenty already) and you want to make some sort of abuse case of it....that fact is that the deck is stacked against a man but so what....if you are doing nothing wrong then nothing will happen to you.....they send illegal immigrants back every day ....and if it is discovered that this girl or any girl makes false DV charges you will see her a$$ being deported....I agree that it is unlikely though and I also agree a lying woman ....which a RW is quite capable of doing BTW...can cost a man some big bucks....

Im making a guess that the guy at worst is dragging his feet a little, but more important this is the ranting of the typical impatient RW....and I agree fully that many guys should seek the Asian variety ....thats the best advice you have given....

Im sure if both sides be known its more about homesickness, cultural misunderstanding, and perhaps a couple of lazy people...

For all the stories (note the common theme) from the RW sites and yes even here....do you really think guys are bringing these girls to cook and clean???? Or is this the pattern of advice given by RW on these sites to leave a difficult marriage rather than work on it? And also to leave with more than you came with and more than you certainly deserve...

Yes there are jerks who abuse these women....but there are far more immigration scammers....cheating, lying, lazy women who just used you as a step up...thats all you ever were....

This woman doesnt have a SS number becasue of her rotten husband...she doesnt have food or underwear....poor dear.....why isnt she babysitting, cleaning, doing whatever to help herself out of this terrible abuse? Maybe becasue its not true or not as bad as she tells it....remember this could be her form of blackmail...

I say this becasue I have seen this a few times now.... she wants his house and savings....or she has her eye on another man....I have yet to see a situation where a guy spent 25 grand to bring over a dishwasher, housecleaner.

Asian is a far better choice....in general....RW culture will lie, cheat and do whatever was acceptable at home....and anything was acceptable....

Then again maybe this girl has a legit complaint....in that case she should talk to his family, her priest, a counselor....anyone rather than a low life scum bag lawyer! That would be the absolute last step....

 

[Jooky]

I seriously doubt the man said he brought her here to be a maid instead of his wife.

What I'd like to know is what has this man been saying. What strikes me most in the original post is this:

After hearing the rude things he was saying about his wife, and even the things he was saying to my wife, part of me feels like beating the crap out of this user.

This isn't the wife complaining, or the wife's friend relating stories. This is the direct experience of the original poster who knows the man in question.

I agree that anyone that complains about a bit of cooking and cleaning is a lazy ass. I work on average ten hours a day seven days a week and have no problem cooking and keeping my house clean. Damn, if that's all I had to do, that would give me ten hours a day of time to just screw around!

However, I don't see that as the main complaint here. From what information was given, it does sound like this man in question is a jerk, and the woman married him hoping to find herself in a better situation than the one she's in.

 

[BC]

Jooky,

Train wreck stories are not the result of two grown mature adults trying to build a relationship.

Relationships are like multiplication..  If one or both factors is 0 the result will also be 0, zip, nada.

Yep.. 'It's a numbers game' often played by those that try to use addition instead or are challenged to the point that they cannot tell the difference between the two digits.

When immigration is involved in relationships the burden of responsibility always lies with the sponsor.  Sorry to say but if this woman is a GCG then the guy deserves everything she can throw at him.  In a way it is quite correct and corresponds to the legal deal and guarantees he made with his government as a sponsor. 

Ignorance is not a defense so anyone caught up in such a mess should quit complaining, suck it up and deal with it.

[acrzybear]

 I am initially dubious of ANYONE that claims abuse without a mark or two to show.  This whole measure of "abuse" makes light of real abuse. 

  Daknack

I have responded to and dealt with all kinds of abuse and I can tell you that there are a few guys out there that never hit their wife/girlfriend but control them by sheer dominance.   I've seen them get yelled at and controlled (such locking up the telephone, choosing what she's going to wear, not allowing her to make any decisions of any sort). Most of the time these situations turn physical, I had a case where I responded to a lawyers house and he never laid a hand on his wife because he knew he would be locked up (Hey every cop loves to lock up lawyers). It gets fustrating at times because the person is such an a$$hole, but they aren't violating any criminal statute.  All I can do is have my officers take the lady aside and give her the information she needs to get out of the situation, but as the saying goes-you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 

I agree that there are not enough facts and we are only getting one side of the story and it's second or third hand information.