Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[Donna_Pedro]

 
   So according to this view you “bought your wife”? Did you pay a fair price or did you get the proverbial “cheep cow”?

That is so cheap now.. really. I would not bother to answer.

.

Why would any man incur all that expense when he can get there here for a fraction of the cost?

I  do not know. Really, why?  Men say AW have attitudes, but surely not all of them. I look around and see married couples everywhere and AM-RW ones are a small fraction among them. I really do not know why you think we are different from WW? I can not tell you for all of RW, but I was taught that  a woman does not have to work. A woman must make a good marriage deal or using the proper language "составить хорошую партию" (the meaning in russian is slightly different , not so business-like ) and stay at home, raise children etc. A woman can work if she wants to or if she is required, but a man MUST be a bread winner for the family. I know that a lot of women share this view (not all of them), but a LOT. I also know that a lot of women come here with the idea that they had enough working in Russia and now they would rather live of bread and water provided by the husband than go to work themselves. So why do you go chasing RW if WW tend to be independent, career oriented and such and you dont have to "incur all that expense"?

[calmissile]

Donna,

I cannot disagree with your comments, however the attitude toward working has not been shared with me by FSU women except for the one instance that started the thread.
I think it is pretty well given that AM may or may not want their wives to work, particularly if there are young children at home.  It is the option of the two people to decide.

I also have to add that tens of thousands of women come to the US from other nationalities and I can't recall any of them having an attitude of being tired of working and expecting not to work.  Instead they dig in and find any job they  can to assist them and their family to experience the American Dream.  For some reason the attitude you  express seems to be unique to FSU women if you are correct in your characterization.  Mexicans and Latin Americans, as well as other nationalities are paying up to $10K each to get smuggled into the country for a chance to experience the American Dream.  They are also not whining about leaving their friends at home, etc.

It is also misleading to suggest that immigrants cannot find decent paying jobs without being conversational in English.  Many immigrants find decent jobs (without scrubbing toilets,etc) if they are here legally.  We see them everyday plying their skills in beauty shops, retail, and other fields.  Sure you can make the argument that they may not find a job in their existing career field after getting off the plane.  But by the same token Doctors, Dentists, and other medical professionals often find work in related fields while getting retrained or re-certified for equivalent jobs in the US.   World famous Loma Linda University and Medical Center just a couple miles away is a very good example of this.  While it is a valid argument that many FSU women cannot get off the plane and find themselves competing with natives for the same job, nevertheless they can find jobs and contribute to the family income if they choose.  Thousands of women from other countries do it everyday.  Perhaps the expectations of FSU women are just more lofty than than other nationalities.  Not good, not bad, just different.

Jack brought up a very good point about what WM are seeking or expecting in personalities of a FSU wife.  It would seem to be a very valuable lesson all WM should be indoctrinated in before ever making a trip.  The question that comes to mind..... If you eliminated all the sharp tongued, stubborn, women that are "Too tired to work" how many would that leave left in the pool?   I would suspect that if a newbie WM had only the posts of FSU  women to base their opinions on, the mad rush to FSU by WM would slow down considerably!

As some of the FSU women posters have clearly stated "If you want our beauty, you are going to pay for it".  Yep, it seems to be a theme here.

Perhaps Jack, Eduard, and other commercial members can give us an idea about what is left in the pool after eliminating those mentioned above.

Fortunately, I have found that English speaking FSU women are nothing like the posters on here.  Exception.... Those that think in Russian and use word translators are very similar, but those fluent in English are much more like OlgaH and a few others that converse with class and respect.  This is one reason I suggest men try and find an English speaking FSU woman when possible.  Even with the use of a electronic translator, the sharp tongue, very direct, sometimes rude translations are often misunderstood and it is only because they have not learned the culture of speaking in English (nicely). 

I also liked the comments that even though you are living in the US, you are Russian and always going to be Russian.  Funny that you are wanting to come here to the  western culture and not want to integrate into it, yet we that bring you here are expected to learn and adapt to your culture.  Hmmmmm.... are we going to be living in the land of your culture or mine?

[Donna_Pedro]

I also have to add that tens of thousands of women come to the US from other nationalities and I can't recall any of them having an attitude of being tired of working and expecting not to work.  Instead they dig in and find any job they  can to assist them and their family to experience the American Dream.  For some reason the attitude you  express seems to be unique to FSU women if you are correct in your characterization.bout leaving their friends at home, etc.

I can not tell you for ALL RW.  RW I came across are 35+ with  children.These women know full well what it is to raise kids and be a bread-winner. A lot of time they have been doing it for 10+ years before they met american husbands and moved to this country. One woman I know has a BS EE degree. She used to teach math in a technical school, tutor kids on the side and had a second job on weekends selling what not at a local market. Real down to earth type of person. Wouldnt have any trouble getting a job at a local community college. In fact this is one rare case, when they would run begging after her.  She told me " I did not come here to work. What would be the point of coming here if I have to work? Love? Yes, I love my husband, but I would not move a finger JUST for love. I could find JUST love aplenty in Russia. There are tons of russian guys to give you love, not too many capable and  to care for the family. I am tired of working. I have been doing it since 17 yo."  This is a very typical story. I have also met tens of women who work but would like not to.

I also liked the comments that even though you are living in the US, you are Russian and always going to be Russian.  Funny that you are wanting to come here to the  western culture and not want to integrate into it, yet we that bring you here are expected to learn and adapt to your culture.

I came here to be with one person. He did not ask me to love his country, just him. Neither he wanted me to accept anything I dont want.

[pitbull]

Jack brought up a very good point about what WM are seeking or expecting in personalities of a FSU wife.  It would seem to be a very valuable lesson all WM should be indoctrinated in before ever making a trip.  The question that comes to mind..... If you eliminated all the sharp tongued, stubborn, women that are "Too tired to work" how many would that leave left in the pool?   I would suspect that if a newbie WM had only the posts of FSU  women to base their opinions on, the mad rush to FSU by WM would slow down considerably!

As some of the FSU women posters have clearly stated "If you want our beauty, you are going to pay for it".  Yep, it seems to be a theme here.

Perhaps Jack, Eduard, and other commercial members can give us an idea about what is left in the pool after eliminating those mentioned above.

Calmissile,
What is irritating to RW in your "entitlement" discourse, is that you simply "don't get it". Do you have any idea about the situation of those same "RW posters" you refer to? As far as I know, all the RW who wrote in your thread are working, and not exactly in "cleaning the toilets" job (the only one I'm not sure about is OlgaH ironically). Actually, women like us are your proverbial "equal partners relationship" dream. I effectively started working in the US 5 years ago, finished my PhD, got another graduate degree from a good school in the US (all A's), all while working full time, being pregnant and raising a small child. Got several promotions, the biggest one just after returning to work after the 3 months' maternity leave. With really great career/salary prospects for the next 30+ years. And yes, I don't take men earning $40K/y seriously. Yeah, I guess a newby looking for an equal partner in FSU should eliminate women like me from the pool.
However, in true spirit of an "equal" relationship I didn't look for men 30 years my senior, and didn't have to compromise on looks, brains, education, age, former wives and kids etc. My husband never even implied that I could work as a shopgirl or such to "contribute to family income" asap, and I don't have any loans for eduation.
The main point is... if you want an equal relationship - look for an equal partner. Not an attractive young woman who could be your daughter or granddaughter, but a nice 65 y.o. babushka (fyi, women in FSU retire at 55). What would it take for you to get a 39yo attractive AW wife? Right, lots of money and a very comfortable lifestyle. Because she compromises a lot marrying you. Don't expect any different with FSUW women. There is no such thing as "cheap cow", you cannot have your cake and eat it. When you are trying to "play innocent" and pretend you don't know the rules of a very large age gap relationship, it just looks extremely dumb and irritating.

[OlgaH]

(the only one I'm not sure about is OlgaH ironically).

Medical illustrations and other different trial and mediation exhibits and graphics, settlement documentaries, commercial/infomercials,  trial/mediation/mock trial presentations, contracts and bookkeeping.

Pitbull,

why do you think Calmissile is interested in 30 years younger women? As I understood he is not.

[pitbull]

Pitbull,

why do you think Calmissile is interested in 30 years younger women? As I understood he is not.

From reading his description I understood that had she agreed to leave her kids behind and demonstrated eagerness to go scrub the toilets the second she lands in the US, he would be veeeery interested. I recall they even talked about the possibility of him visiting her and the kids this summer (he complained that had she not admitted to not wanting to work and leave the kids behind, he could have gone and wasted his time with this "entitlement attitude" lady). In short, the cow is simply not cheap enough. That's how I read it 
Also, not understanding that if a 30yo contacts a 68 yo for the prospect of marriage, she expects more than just the wrinhled body to love. and "ne nado delats bolshie glaza" 
 
Cool things you are doing for work! 

[OlgaH]

What it is all about "cleaning toilets"? Is it some kind of disgraceful job? I think any person who performs a duty job deserves not less respect as a duty job itself.

I remember talking to  one Russian woman who was shy to tell that she has her own cleaning business, yes she cleans the houses herself including "scrubbing the toilets". She makes not bad money. So I told her that there was not anything to be shy and ashamed. One of our client was an America woman (a year younger than me) who got into automobile accident, her husband is a deputy sheriff, she was cleaning houses, that was her business and earning before the accident. We are friends now after two years of working on her case. 
 

[pitbull]

What it is all about "cleaning toilets"? Is it some kind of disgraceful job? I think any person who performs a duty job deserves not less respect as a duty job itself.

Nothing wrong with cleaning toilets... as long as I don't have to do it 
For me, it's just a metaphor for "minimal wage/low level jobs". Not worth immigrating for, especially with a "grandpa" for a hubby

[OlgaH]

Pitbull,

I remember I was chatting with 60 y.o. guys who contacted me. Not because I was interested in such age group and considered them as life partners, but just out of curiosity. We discussed different stuff...  The most interesting case as a psychiatrist would say was a 75 y.o.     

[pitbull]

Pitbull,

I remember I was chatting with 60 y.o. guys who contacted me. Not because I was interested in such age group and considered them as life partners, but just out of curiosity. We discussed different stuff...  The most interesting case as a psychiatrist would say was a 75 y.o. 

I was too busy for that... those went straight into trash 

[OlgaH]

I was too busy for that... those went straight into trash 

we had a good fun with girls at my work during lunch 

[OlgaH]

Also, not understanding that if a 30yo contacts a 68 yo for the prospect of marriage, she expects more than just the wrinhled body to love. and "ne nado delats bolshie glaza" 
 

 I think that's the point. She red his profile and there was no need for her even to contact Calmissile.

Evgeniya 39: When you wrote the biography .я I wish to specify, you want that your wife worked?
Doug Wilson: Yes of course.

Evgeniya 39: im want one time in my life have man who say me d work relax at home ... u all life work... i want just man who care about me and kids

Doug Wilson: It sounds like I cannot meet your requirements.

Evgeniya 39: but be better know it now

what the heck what she was expecting     

[calmissile]

pitbull,

Not sure why your panties are in such a twist, but you are crediting me for statements I have not made.  Other than your sharp tongue, you don't fit into any of the categories mentioned in the previous post that I know of.  I have never referred to FSU women as a cow.  I have never pretended to not know the rules of a large age gap.  Your inference that I am seeking women 30 years younger than myself is also not accurate.  Why do you make this stuff up and then use it to criticize someone?

As far as your achievements and the hard work you did to accomplish them, I applaud you.  I suspect that your husband also has a high paying job and had no need for you to take a menial job.  That is great for you both. I have no arguments with that. You have the skills, intelligence, and drive that would allow you to pick the man of your dreams.  Why would any WM not desire you or remove you from the pool?

Your condescending remarks about me personally are a little annoying however.  That's OK, I am getting accustomed to the FSU culture much better in the past year or so.

"And yes, I don't take men earning $40K/y seriously."
Who is this comment meant to apply to, or why did you make it?

"What would it take for you to get a 39yo attractive AW wife? Right, lots of money and a very comfortable lifestyle. Because she compromises a lot marrying you."
That could be, but why are they are soliciting us by the thousands? I guess it is up to them what is important!  You should preach to your sisters in the FSU to not seek older men because you do not like their priorities. 

I really can't comment on your version of an "equal marriage" because I do not think in those terms.  My thoughts are more in line with "Whatever two people decide for themselves is their business and not yours or mine".  As long as they are happy together who cares?  Since we mostly hear about the train wrecks and divorces it is hard to evaluate how many of those couples with or without large age gaps are still leading happy marriages.

My Russian neighbor that has lived in the US for many years has related the stories of 4 couples that she knows personally that have NO age gap and ended in divorce.  The most notable one is a case where the wife beat the husband with implements and the police had to be called several times.  Apparently the man was a gentleman and took it rather than defending himself.  I thought it strange that a Russian woman would warn me about Russian women, but nevertheless it was something to think about.  At least 2 other cases were where the women just bailed out as soon as they found something better or different. Can't blame any of these on a age gap however.

My first contact with a Russian women was 2-3 years ago in a clothing store.  She was there to help her teenage son purchase some clothes.  She is the wife of a professor at one of our local universities.  She was very beautiful and probably in her 40's or early 50's. When the salesman had chosen a selection of dress pants and shirts for me to consider, she looked over at me as though she would offer a suggestion.  I asked her what she thought of the choices.  She was a very classy lady with the demeanor of OlgaH and gave me advice on what she would recommend.  She was very friendly and it left an impression on me as to wonder what it would be like to marry a FSU woman.  When the time came to start a search, I still had this vision in mind.  It is a far cry from the impression that I get from some of the posters. 

My experiences in Ukraine also suggests that most women there are not representative of some of the posters we read on the forum.  That is why I was curious about what Jack and Eduard thought about the comparison of some of the posters and what the norm is in their experience with FSU women that have not yet come to the US.

I see that your age-gap hatred is showing once again in your responses to OlgaH.  Why not just let it go.  Your probably not going to convince any men (or FSU women) to change their  minds anyway.  Please notice that unlike yourself, I have not made any personal attacks on you.  I would appreciate the same courtesy.

[pitbull]

I see that your age-gap hatred is showing once again in your responses to OlgaH.  Why not just let it go.  Your probably not going to convince any men (or FSU women) to change their  minds anyway.  Please notice that unlike yourself, I have not made any personal attacks on you.  I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I have no hatred of age-gap relationships. I don't really care. What I don't like is when one party in this kind of relationship pretends that it's essentially the same as they would have with their peer. And almost invariably the direction of this pretence is towards the aforementioned party's advantage. I believe in balance. In large age-gap relationship, traditionally the man balances by bringing maturity, financial stability and lifestyle to the table. If the balance is not there, divorces just like the ones we've witnessed on this same board happen.
Frankly, I just dislike hypocrisy a lot. The way you've spinned this story smells of hypocrisy a 1000 miles outward. 
 

[calmissile]

pitbul,

I have no hatred of age-gap relationships. I don't really care. What I don't like is when one party in this kind of relationship pretends that it's essentially the same as they would have with their peer. And almost invariably the direction of this pretence is towards the aforementioned party's advantage. I believe in balance. In large age-gap relationship, traditionally the man balances by bringing maturity, financial stability and lifestyle to the table. If the balance is not there, divorces just like the ones we've witnessed on this same board happen.

So why are you busting my chops?  I am in total agreement with your quote above and I doubt you will find any of my posts disagreeing with you.

Once again........ who was the $40K a year income directed to?

[Ade]

I have no hatred of age-gap relationships. I don't really care. What I don't like is when one party in this kind of relationship pretends that it's essentially the same as they would have with their peer. And almost invariably the direction of this pretence is towards the aforementioned party's advantage. I believe in balance. In large age-gap relationship, traditionally the man balances by bringing maturity, financial stability and lifestyle to the table. If the balance is not there, divorces just like the ones we've witnessed on this same board happen.
Frankly, I just dislike hypocrisy a lot. The way you've spinned this story smells of hypocrisy a 1000 miles outward.

+ a lot more than 1.

[Boethius]

pitbull,

Not sure why your panties are in such a twist, but you are crediting me for statements I have not made.  .  .   I have never referred to FSU women as a cow. 

I think pitbull was invoking a metaphor raised in another thread, but repeated in this one.  It is raised from time to time by some "oldtimers", and comes from this post -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=10704.msg209722#msg209722


I suggest you read the thread, only because it also contains the reference to the "$700 coat" referred to here on occasion.

I see that your age-gap hatred is showing once again in your responses to OlgaH. 

I think you misunderstand pitbull, cal.  I would read her responses closely.  She is responding as a typical woman does.  See also Donna Pedro's post on working.  To a much younger woman, you are a "trade off". 

My husband has a 38 year old cousin (in Kyiv - his immediate family is there).  Never married.  He is tall, slim, good looking.  He beats women off.  He can leave one and be moved in with another within a week.  They work.  He does at times, at others, he doesn't, but they don't care.  One relationship wasn't working for him, he moved out, and the woman's mother came and begged him to take her back.   There are plenty of men like him in Ukraine, and in Russia.  Good looking, not drunkards, but underemployed, can't support a woman who also does not work.

What pitbull and Donna Pedro are telling you is why would a woman who can find such a man in Russia or Ukraine, a man who is still at his peak physically, is in her country, speaks the same language, knows her culture, etc., trade him for you? (I don't mean you personally, but a collective "older man")?   If she is going to work and take care of a man, what have you got to offer her that a much younger, slim bodied FSUM can't?


Women, in general, (not just FSUW) will weigh the "trade offs" of being with a particular man.  He may not be the best looking, but he is good, earns a decent living, and will be a good father.  He is great looking but will cheat on me.  He is a lot older, but I will be materially comfortable and he won't break my heart, etc.

Your charm and personality may win an AW who has the luxury of getting to know the real cal over time, perhaps after starting as a friendship.  Not so with an FSUW, so weighing the "trade offs" will be paramount.

[Boethius]

My experiences in Ukraine also suggests that most women there are not representative of some of the posters we read on the forum.  That is why I was curious about what Jack and Eduard thought about the comparison of some of the posters and what the norm is in their experience with FSU women that have not yet come to the US.

My experiences in Ukraine tell me they are exactly like women in Ukraine, and like most WW I have known.   

I think most of the women here would be great friends (to other women).

[Boethius]

My Russian neighbor that has lived in the US for many years has related the stories of 4 couples that she knows personally that have NO age gap and ended in divorce.  The most notable one is a case where the wife beat the husband with implements and the police had to be called several times.  Apparently the man was a gentleman and took it rather than defending himself.  I thought it strange that a Russian woman would warn me about Russian women, but nevertheless it was something to think about.  At least 2 other cases were where the women just bailed out as soon as they found something better or different. Can't blame any of these on a age gap however.

Everyone's story is different, of course, but don't you think that if a woman is a crazy broad, or is only concerned about money/material comfort, or is selfish and self centred, and an FSUM wouldn't put up with her, she would look abroad for a man?

I used to post at a big forum, which had a lifestyle section.  From lurking there, I observed a fair number of WW in their late thirties/early forties who were obviously high maintenance/neurotic/downright nuts.  They would start a new relationship which would end in a few months, usually, I surmised, when the man finally figured out "This woman is crazy."  There was just no self realization there, no stepping back to think why do men keep dumping me, and what is my role in this?

FSUW are no different from WW.  The majority want a good home with a man.  But some are neurotic and not someone a normal man wants to live with.  The difference is, because these relationships are so compressed, often with linguistic challenges, you are often in "deeper" than you would be with a crazy WW before you realize how crazy she is.  Or, that you're just not suited to one another.

[calmissile]

Boethius
The post she made below is one of the most intelligent posts I can remember in her series.
I have no argument with her logic and accept it as factual.

I have no hatred of age-gap relationships. I don't really care. What I don't like is when one party in this kind of relationship pretends that it's essentially the same as they would have with their peer. And almost invariably the direction of this pretence is towards the aforementioned party's advantage. I believe in balance. In large age-gap relationship, traditionally the man balances by bringing maturity, financial stability and lifestyle to the table. If the balance is not there, divorces just like the ones we've witnessed on this same board happen.

However, while I was prearing my response to her, she had to edit her post to add the last line attack...

Frankly, I just dislike hypocrisy a lot. The way you've spinned this story smells of hypocrisy a 1000 miles outward. 

Not to mention the other disparaging remarks such as....

[bAlso, not understanding that if a 30yo contacts a 68 yo for the prospect of marriage, she expects more than just the wrinhled body to love. and "ne nado delats bolshie glaza"   
][/b]

Since I have never had any complaints from women in their 40's either AW or UA, I will just ignore her remarks.  She has no clue about me personally but likes to make derrogatory remarks about many men that she diagrees with.

As a result I will join all the other men that do not engage in any diaglogue with her.  Her 'free pass' allows her to do this with repetition and once it is no longer intellectual, educational, or pleasant it is time to give up!  She seems to thrive on the personal attacks and no amount of your attempt to justify it makes much sense.  I did not misread or misunderstand her remarks.  She was responding directly to my posts and her personal remarks were directed to me.  Fair enough!

Peace!

[The Natural]

What it is all about "cleaning toilets"? Is it some kind of disgraceful job? I think any person who performs a duty job deserves not less respect as a duty job itself.

I was thinking exactly the same Olga and it's something I've seen many times before here. Scrubbing toilets is actually a part of my job and I have no problem with it or feel like I lack dignity or status or anything like that which some people asscociate jobs like that as.

[Ade]

As a result I will join all the other men and not engage in any diaglogue with her.  Her 'free pass' allows her to do this with repetition and once it is no longer intellectual, educational, or pleasant it is time to give up!  She seems to thrive on the personal attacks and no amount of your attempt to justify it makes much sense.  I did not misread or misunderstand her remarks.  She was responding directly to my posts and her personal remarks were directed to me.  Fair enough!

Peace!

"All"? Not even close I think. Pitbull is one of the most eloquent and rational posters on this forum. What you like to think of as "personal attacks" is actually the truth as she (and I for that matter) sees it. She, like any other woman has no more of a "free pass" than you or I.

[Ade]

I was thinking exactly the same Olga and it's something I've seen many times before here. Scrubbing toilets is actually a part of my job and I have no problem with it or feel like I lack dignity or status or anything like that which some people asscociate jobs like that as.

Fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with a job that includes cleaning toilets. However, I, personally, would not accept that I had to do that as a job, even temporarily, just to move to another country. I'd do it to survive if I had to and had no other choice. So why should I expect a wife of mine to do that if she were a highly educated professional in her own country? And if she needs to do it to survive, I'd suggest that the man in question shouldn't be looking abroad for a wife.

[Boethius]

She seems to thrive on the personal attacks and no amount of your attempt to justify it makes much sense.

All I am saying is forget the personal attacks and look at the underlying message.  Her message, actually, was similar to Olga's.  It was just presented in a different way.

[LiveFromUkraine]

 I agree with Pitbull, there is some hypocrisy going on in this thread.

I am assuming posters are going to fsu for particular reasons.  That these women have certain, “attributes”, that make them more appealing compared to women in their home countries.

There is no doubt that women in your own country will try to shame you into thinking you’re a loser for having to go out of country for women.  That you can’t get a quality woman in [insert your country here].

You may accept the contempt from your local women trying to shame you for looking for something better.  By the term better, you are simply looking for something that is better for yourself.

Now, we have a post saying that a woman in a FSU country has an entitled mentality simply because she is doing the same as guys on this forum.

Do some of you guys really not see the hypocrisy.

Hell, I am starting to think that some guys really don’t know women very well if they think they will leave their country simply because of love which would be difficult to create under the environment most of you guys use to search for women (no common culture, no common language, and little time in person). 

Look, she isn’t any worst or better then you guys looking for your ideal mate.  She wants what she wants and you can either accept it or find someone who more closely desires what you do.

Shaming logic like “entitlement  mentality” is used by many women to describe you as being losers for not being able to find your mate in your country.  I don't think we should be using the same type of logic.