Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[Misha]

Really? You think anyone here is so ignorant that they don't understand that there are exceptions? That contract cleaners can earn a lot? That people who own their own cleaning businesses can't earn big money? 

To put it bluntly, yes. People are pretty adept at making unfounded assumptions. The point that I made was simple: some people chose to work in cleaning because it makes them a lot more money than the other options. There are many professions out there that people assume are demeaning and poorly paid, but quite often can be quite lucrative, if only for the short term.

[size=78%]The Russian woman we know that is currently in a crisis centre because of her controlling, abusive, weirdo soon to be ex-husband, earns $3,500 CAD a month contract cleaning toilets part time. But you know what? She's started getting allergic reactions to the cleaning products and the long term career plan sucks big time.[/size]

Over time she can get a few employees who will do the work and add a few more contracts. Or, over time, she will find something else and will move on.

[Ade]

To put it bluntly, yes. People are pretty adept at making unfounded assumptions. The point that I made was simple: some people chose to work in cleaning because it makes them a lot more money than the other options. There are many professions out there that people assume are demeaning and poorly paid, but quite often can be quite lucrative, if only for the short term.

I think you underestimate people here. The fact is that most people find the thought of cleaning as a job unpleasant. Yes, it can be done if necessity dictates it, but really, most would prefer a lower paid job doing other stuff if they don't need the money. Don't mistake distaste for a particular job with arrogance, snobbery, superiority or anything else. Yes, I'll agree that some people have those attitudes towards cleaners, but not everyone does.

Over time she can get a few employees who will do the work and add a few more contracts. Or, over time, she will find something else and will move on.

Unlikely as the contacts tend go out to large cleaning companies that employ women like her (she's under contract to one of these firms). Finding the resources to compete with these well established large firms would be difficult especially as she's a foreigner.




I also have to say, when my wife and I talked about employment, I told her that I would support her fully in anything she decided to do, whether that was becoming a housewife, studying or working. I would have never expected her to work in a job I wouldn't do myself.

[pitbull]

I also have to say, when my wife and I talked about employment, I told her that I would support her fully in anything she decided to do, whether that was becoming a housewife, studying or working. I would have never expected her to work in a job I wouldn't do myself.

Bravo, Ade! You and Muzh seem to be the only two (sorry if I missed someone) men with this attitude in this thread. This is what a relationship is about, not the eintitlement of "I'll bring you to the land of American Dream, and you need to contribute financially asap, even if it means a dirty, low-paid, dead-end job"! It's just sad to see these two gentlemen in such minority. However, goes to show you that some of us FSUW do get lucky!

[Donna_Pedro]

I always thought where his arrogance came from. He told that he was an orphan from a province who was brought by his grandmother and did not have a spoiled childhood.

But at least he was open with his attitude. I think the real hypocrisy and arrogance comes when people say "I see nothing wrong with cleaning the toilets... but ..." 

So if I said " I see nothing wrong with a profession of a astrophysicist, Its cool, BUT I would never make a good one, its not interesting and I am not smart enough for it, i d rather leave astrophysics to those extraordinary people from Berkley  and go do debits and credits "  - it would be OK, and not hypocritical.
But if I said "I see nothing wrong with cleaning the toilets, but I would never make a good cleaner,because I am way too smart and over-educated for it and its also not very interesting, I prefer to earn money with my brains and leave the toilet cleaning to those who cant" - you would find it hypocritical? Btw, my dad was a high level official during the communist era, he worked in Kremlin and my childhood was plentiful. My son got offended in college when someone offered him to work as a waiter and he earned very good money tutoring people  instead. To each his own.

[Muzh]

Bravo, Ade! You and Muzh seem to be the only two (sorry if I missed someone) men with this attitude in this thread. This is what a relationship is about, not the eintitlement of "I'll bring you to the land of American Dream, and you need to contribute financially asap, even if it means a dirty, low-paid, dead-end job"! It's just sad to see these two gentlemen in such minority. However, goes to show you that some of us FSUW do get lucky!

LMAO

That's what I keep telling her.




Just joking. Actually, you made me blush.

[OlgaH]

So if I said " I see nothing wrong with a profession of a astrophysicist, Its cool, BUT I would never make a good one, its not interesting and I am not smart enough for it, i d rather leave astrophysics to those extraordinary people from Berkley  and go do debits and credits "  - it would be OK, and not hypocritical.
But if I said "I see nothing wrong with cleaning the toilets, but I would never make a good cleaner,because I am way too smart and over-educated for it and its also not very interesting, I prefer to earn money with my brains and leave the toilet cleaning to those who cant" - you would find it hypocritical? Btw, my dad was a high level official during the communist era, he worked in Kremlin and my childhood was plentiful. My son got offended in college when someone offered him to work as a waiter and he earned very good money tutoring people  instead. To each his own.

No, Donna_Pedro, I meant different "but".

If I would be offered to work as a waiter I would not get offended as I see nothing offensive in this job. I would take it or I would politely decline, it would depend on my options .

[oldernotwiser]

Here is a story I had a year before I engaged myself in international dating. I was walking along the old Arbat street with my potential fiancé. We saw a young girl cleaning the floor at one of the cafes. He expressed all his disgust saying that it was a shame to do such job and an idea that it was a student making some money also was unacceptable and he would never let his two daughters students to shame themselves with such job. Word after word and I finally said: "So, you think that a woman cleaner who cleans the sh!t after your Kremlin a$$ in your Kremlin toilets doesn't deserve any respect!" He was a head of one of the Kremlin departments and came to our city with an inspection that how we met. That was another drop among others drops why I dropped him. I always thought where his arrogance came from. He told that he was an orphan from a province who was brought by his grandmother and did not have a spoiled childhood.

Give a person the money and the power and you will see his true nature.

But at least he was open with his attitude. I think the real hypocrisy and arrogance comes when people say "I see nothing wrong with cleaning the toilets... but ..." 

I agree with Olga, there is something that is very unattractive when a person belittles those in occupations that they consider undesirable, I thought this was the point she was trying to make imho.  As I understand it, some of you are not saying the occupation in and of itself is bad, it is more that it is beneath you and your abilities as a person to be employed in such an endeavor.  I really don't care if you work, don't work, find the job of your dream, whatever.  I dislike it when I detect an attitude that a person believes someone who works in such occupations is somehow less worthy.

[Misha]

Bravo, Ade! You and Muzh seem to be the only two (sorry if I missed someone) men with this attitude in this thread. This is what a relationship is about, not the eintitlement of "I'll bring you to the land of American Dream, and you need to contribute financially asap, even if it means a dirty, low-paid, dead-end job"! It's just sad to see these two gentlemen in such minority. However, goes to show you that some of us FSUW do get lucky!

I have no objections to being lumped in with the two. I am a firm believer that grown adults must make their own life decisions. I can imagine cases where it would not be a bad thing for a woman to consider other alternatives. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, a woman with children who has been looking for a life partner for years and clearly cannot find the high earning men that will allow her to stay at home and pay for her children's education. She does not have the connections to ensure her children will get good jobs in the future and she is worried about their future in her country. She then meets a good man, but not a rich man. He is willing to marry her, but says that she will have to work to help pay for her children's university education. Will it be worth the sacrifice of a few years washing the hypothetical toilets to help her children get a good start as future citizens of the United States? Or is she better off sitting at home waiting for the rich prince who may never show up?

[Ade]

Bravo, Ade! You and Muzh seem to be the only two (sorry if I missed someone) men with this attitude in this thread. This is what a relationship is about, not the eintitlement of "I'll bring you to the land of American Dream, and you need to contribute financially asap, even if it means a dirty, low-paid, dead-end job"! It's just sad to see these two gentlemen in such minority. However, goes to show you that some of us FSUW do get lucky!

We should start a mutual appreciation society.

[Ade]

I have no objections to being lumped in with the two. I am a firm believer that grown adults must make their own life decisions. I can imagine cases where it would not be a bad thing for a woman to consider other alternatives. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, a woman with children who has been looking for a life partner for years and clearly cannot find the high earning men that will allow her to stay at home and pay for her children's education. She does not have the connections to ensure her children will get good jobs in the future and she is worried about their future in her country. She then meets a good man, but not a rich man. He is willing to marry her, but says that she will have to work to help pay for her children's university education. Will it be worth the sacrifice of a few years washing the hypothetical toilets to help her children get a good start as future citizens of the United States? Or is she better off sitting at home waiting for the rich prince who may never show up?

Are we really speaking "hypothetically" or are we talking about Calmissile and this woman? As far as I understand it, Cal used to be an owner of a company that manufactured planes or plane parts and he still does freelance engineering something or other at the ripe old age of 68. He also talked of owning two homes, one in Ukraine and one in the US and tripping back and forth. Hardly sounds like someone that couldn't afford a stay at home wife or a wife that retrained or took her time to get a job she really enjoyed, now does it?

[Gator]

Bravo, Ade! You and Muzh seem to be the only two (sorry if I missed someone)  men with this attitude in this thread. .....

Apology accepted.  All of us are different.   Some of us do not thump our chests.  Some of us prefer that our wife not work at all.     
 
 

     It's just sad to see these two gentlemen in such minority.   

I am not sure that Ade and Muzh are in the minority.    Be careful when you make quick assumptions about the temperament of the RWD men.   Please do not confuse us with the  many AM examples conveyed by complaining RW in your other forum.  The vast majority of AM-RW couples whom I know (none  participate in a forum) seem well adjusted.   
 

Serious question for you Pitbull:  Many RW are married to older AM, some many years older and some not so many yet almost all men are older.  Fact: the expected life of men is shorter than women, maybe even shorter with the added stress of a RW wife.  [joke]    What is the general sentiment among RW about their future after hubby kicks the bucket?  In other words, have RW in general found fulfilling and gainful employment?   Will their lifestyle be better than if they had remained in the FSU and their FSU husband had died?
 
 

[Misha]

Are we really speaking "hypothetically" or are we talking about Calmissile and this woman?

I stated hypothetically speaking, so yes we are really speaking hypothetically 

[OlgaH]

As some of the FSU women posters have clearly stated "If you want our beauty, you are going to pay for it".  Yep, it seems to be a theme here.

calmissile, it could be also a theme of whole MOB, MOB industry is a business itself and that's why general mentality of women looking for a foreign husband could be much different from the mentality of women who decide to improve their life through immigration on their own.

There is different type of women. Some are looking for a partner to create a family, some are  looking  solely for a sponsor and provider of a better life or just "a mule" and of course many other groups I guess. I really don't know what kind of group of women prevails in the MOB industry. 

[The Natural]

I am not sure that Ade and Muzh are in the minority.    Be careful when you make quick assumptions about the temperament of the RWD men.   

Well said. It isn't all said in a forum and what forum member really know another member solely by reading here?
 
I said that I don't agree with those who look down on cleaners and that I clean toilets myself at work. That statement does not mean that I therefore expect my woman to start cleaning toilets for a living once she's here.
 
My Russian ex-wife spent the first year here going to language classes. I did not pressure her to go to work, but she was approached by a shop owner and asked if she wanted a job in the supermarked, which she accepted. But once people in her home town learned about her new career, it was ridiculed as something about as low as cleaning toilets in status.
 
My present girlfriend worked very hard in Moscow making a living when I met her online. She went home to Ukraine for her summer holiday and we met. Afterwards she was again ready to go off and working but I told her that I will support her financially so she didn't need to go far away or work for an extremely low salary in her home town. She is happy about that arrangement which we still have and I'm pretty popular with her mother too which lives in the same town 
 
I'm only writing this beause it was suggested that, save for a couple of guys here on this forum, the rest of us WM can't wait to put our girls to work. It's not like that with me. I support her financially because I love her and she loves me. I don't think in terms of equal this or equal that. It's not a business deal, it's a relationship based on love and respect.

[2tallbill]

The ones with unrealistic expectations will invariably end up alone, though perhaps with an interlude of marriage. This is true for both men and women. The best they can hope for, to cite a Kenny Rogers' song of yore, is to die in their sleep 

I agree,


The best advice of Kenny Rogers is to
Know when to hold them and know when to fold them

[2tallbill]

Men say AW have attitudes, but surely not all of them.

AW are not all the same. There are millions of pretty, thin, educated, sexy, happy,
NOT cRaZy, not man hater American women. However most of them are married to very happy men. By the time a man gets my age, the percentage of women with all these desirable traits that are available gets very low indeed.


I like AW and they seem to like me as well. However finding a large pool of pretty,
thin, clever, educated, feminine, sexy, happy, non crazy, non manhating women it seems can only be found in the FSU.

[Gator]

. I really don't know what kind of group of women prevails in the MOB industry.

I am glad that you admit such rather than making an emotionally-based assumption as some here are inclined to do.  I would give you an  except that all of us should behave this way. 
 
What kind of woman prevails in the MOB industry?    Forthright, hard working women looking for a brand new life and a decent man to share it with.  All wanted to work or thought it too unusual not to work.   
 
That is my opinion based on my experience with spending at least a day with about 15 women whom I met through an agency.  They ranged in age from 27-46 at the time, and most were in their early 40s.
 
There is no reason to disparage MOB women.  You did not, yet some people do even though they have not little experience.   I am not saying that all MOB women are sincere.  Before deciding to meet someone, I spent a lot of time on the phone with them.  Every prudent man should do this and focus on real important topics such as values and goals.   

[Gator]

I like AW and they seem to like me as well. However finding a large pool of pretty,
thin, clever, educated, feminine, sexy, happy, non crazy, non manhating women it seems can only be found in the FSU.

Is it really that bad where you live?  I recall that you are a successful businessman, yet no AW for you,  at least none who will gladly clean toilets.

[2tallbill]

Is it really that bad where you live?  I recall that you are a successful businessman, yet no AW for you,  at least none who will gladly clean toilets.

I went to Georgia almost a year ago today, got shot down came back and
dated a couple of American ladies. I'm not dating anyone right this moment[size=78%]. [/size]
I have a few things that I need to get squared away then I can start looking
again.




I didn't understand the reference to cleaning toilets, 

[OlgaH]

I don't think in terms of equal this or equal that. It's not a business deal, it's a relationship based on love and respect.

Love and respect also has its own basis.  For me such basis also includes  sharing the goals, views and expectations.

Personally I see nothing wrong with a man who would expect his lady working and contributing financially when his lady shares the same goals and expectations    (and more over when she expects the same from a man    )

[Doll]

Love and respect also has its own basis.  For me such basis also includes  sharing the goals, views and expectations.

Personally I see nothing wrong with a man who would expect his lady working and contributing financially when his lady shares the same goals and expectations    (and more over when she expects the same from a man    )

Olga, we are questioning "equal contribution", not just contribution.
It is obvious for this country that families need two incomes.
Can you do it without working for you husband- contribute as much as he does?
I can't.

[Daveman]

I would not have believed Gator capable of a blatant falsehood... I am shocked and disappointed...

..
Fact: the expected life of men is shorter than women, maybe even shorter with the added stress of a RW wife.  [joke]   ...

Just to set the record straight...


That ain't no joke!   

[OlgaH]

Olga, we are questioning "equal contribution", not just contribution.
It is obvious for this country that families need two incomes.
Can you do it without working for you husband- contribute as much as he does?
I can't.

Doll, I don't look at "equal contribution" as only a "financial equal contribution".

But to answer your question regarding contribution I contribute not less financially into our income. As my husband says now we go 50/50.  With me he doesn't need to hire somebody else for a job I do.  If God forbid something happens to my husband I have two options: to sell our business or continue to run it. Of course I can not counsel lawyers, I don't have my husband's expertise and experience, but I can do what I do now. 

[Daveman]

AW are not all the same. There are millions of pretty, thin, educated, sexy, happy,
NOT cRaZy, not man hater American women. However most of them are married to very happy men. By the time a man gets my age, the percentage of women with all these desirable traits that are available gets very low indeed.


I like AW and they seem to like me as well. However finding a large pool of pretty,
thin, clever, educated, feminine, sexy, happy, non crazy, non manhating women it seems can only be found in the FSU.

I *partially* agree...
There is nowhere in the world with more gorgeous women that the south here in USA... goOoOod night... There are many sweet personaltied, *very* attractive southern belles as well...  I jist kain't deyal wiyith tha acksint...      


Really, there is *nothing* wrong with AW.  They are *easy* to deal with.   Yeah more of them are fat now than 30 years ago,  but far from all. 


I must have that slavic stubborn streak.  Don't get me wrong - I am glad I stuck with it and found the woman I found... BUT, the path would have been a hell of a lot easier if I had just stayed home... 

[Doll]

Doll, I don't look at "equal contribution" as only a "financial equal contribution".

 

It is a little bit hard to talk to you, because I responded to your "don't mind financial contribution", then you switch to something else.
Nobody looks at each other just financially.