If you could turn the clock back...

[Kapitanleutnant]

Guys....


Writing to ask if you were able do this whole international dating thing all over from the beginning except..... You now know everything you know as of today, including the info gathered on this web sight .


Would you go about it exactly as you did or change tactics a little, or change the whole approach... And if so how would you change it.


Would you select going to another city... Even another country?


Thanks for your thoughts.


Kapitan

[ML]

I would drink the kool-aid.

[Muzh]

Sorry dude, you have to be your own man. 

[Goombah]

Well... lets see.  Depends on how far back I could turn the clock back!  Could I get divorced from my first wife earlier?  Could I not have dated much less married her?  OK, suppose not.

I think I would strive to learn more Russian before starting my search.  Not master it, but as least be able to speak broken Russian enough to get by without a translator.  That would be my #1 change.

#2 would to not be in a rush.  I'm wanted a LOT of communication between myself and my intended, and got it with my wife of 6 years now!  We exchanged 640 e-mails messages, most about 5 printed pages long, before I showed up in her city.  We knew before I showed up that we were compatible - my going was just a chemistry test.  If your going to see one girl, which in my mind is just fine, and she bails on your at the list minute, go anyhow, but just go to learn the culture/vacation.  If you like meeting girls at bars, go to the bars (just watch out for the professionals there).  If you want to meet girls via an agency, meet girls - but don't hook up with one and exclude everyone else.  That one my be beautiful, and tell and do everything you could dream of, but you don't know here nor will you learn everything you need to know in a week or two visit.

[GQBlues]

You'll soon find out if you had to do this (post) over again, you ought to post it in the 'Expereince' section.
 

Guys....


Writing to ask if you were able do this whole international dating thing all over from the beginning except..... You now know everything you know as of today, including the info gathered on this web sight .

I'll presume this would mean I never would've known/met wifey. Having said that, I would've scrap the entire idea and would've been so happy being single in LA. Continued to enjoy romping and dating at home and likely happily married someone local. But...such is life.

Would you go about it exactly as you did or change tactics a little, or change the whole approach... And if so how would you change it.

I was a WMVM. No regrets there.

Would you select going to another city... Even another country?

Nope. LA/California/USA was mighty fine for me.

[noelscot]

Guys....


Writing to ask if you were able do this whole international dating thing all over from the beginning except..... You now know everything you know as of today, including the info gathered on this web sight .


Would you go about it exactly as you did or change tactics a little, or change the whole approach... And if so how would you change it.


Would you select going to another city... Even another country?


Thanks for your thoughts.


Kapitan

LOL. Oh boy. This is going to get me shouted off the holler board, but here is what I would do if I had Dok's DeLorean.
 
1) Never visit during winter. Nekagda zima.
 
2) Never WOVO.
 
3) Never ride a train. (Opt for domestic flights or the avtolux.)
 
4) Treat FSUW like FSUM treat them. "When in Rome..."
 
5) Don't romanticize the FSU.
 
6) Go to Russia instead of Ukraine.
 
7) Use a "codename" for RWD. Perhaps "Francis Gary Powers."
 
8 Carry a cyanide pill just in case things go really badly. lol.
 
9) Walk softly but carry a big stick, as T.R. advised.
 
10) See this thing for what it is. Quid pro quo. No whitewashing it.
 
11) Flip the script.
 
That's about it....     

[Steamer]

Would not change a single thing.

[Patagonie]

I think i would have changed some things :
1/ It would have been better to decide me to go earlier in FSU, but i entered into the loop in fact at the right time. I mean that before i was probably not ready in my head and i am capable to afford the adventure for not so long (i mean the complete adventure, to a marriage).
2/ I have not dated first girls like normal dating, which was a mistake, wanting to be in a total pureness demeanor. I have lost time with a pro dater, but she don't hit me financially, just very little money.
3/ I would have started to learn russian from the beginning of my search.
4/ I would avoided to propose a travel after very fews meetings, not having intimacy with the lady. This was a mistake, i paid for it.
5/ I have listened advices from a french fellow, married with a russian woman, for the first three months, and it was a very BAD coaching. Probably it would have been better to start a trip in RWD board and take care of the reaction of veterans.
6/ I have practiced WOVO (or WMVO) and WAVM (write any visit many) and WMVM.
I think you must go to a WOVO when you have already a STRONG connection. In my opinion at least 2 months are required. On an other hand WAVM is not the most efficient in my experience. But write a lot and visit many is also a cause of crash.
So (in accordance with my social skills and my personality) the best is to contact many ladies and exchange few (not many) letters before travelling. After the travel, if you are not having a love affair the best is to continue correspondance with ALL you like and all who want to keep in touch with you. After few weeks you would know whom are really interested in you.
7/ i would have more tolerance with girls. I mean in fsu you have not so much time to assess a girl, if she can be a good mate. The problem is there are many things which interfere with the expression of the truth. You want to call her, phone doesn't ring, in fact the network has a problem. You expect to meet her, she don't show, in fact she hadn't understood because she don't have enough skills in english. You meet her and the agency after one or two meetings,  tells you she is not interested. In fact she is interested and the agency is also interested, to making more fees and so more money.

[Doll]

Guys....


 

Would you go about it exactly as you did or change tactics a little, or change the whole approach... And if so how would you change it.


Would you select going to another city... Even another country?


Thanks for your thoughts.


Kapitan

I wouldn't have married my present husband and probably wouldn't have relocated to the USA.

[ghost of moon goddess]

...
i would have more tolerance with girls. I mean in fsu you have not so much time to assess a girl, if she can be a good mate. The problem is there are many things which interfere with the expression of the truth. You want to call her, phone doesn't ring, in fact the network has a problem. You expect to meet her, she don't show, in fact she hadn't understood because she don't have enough skills in english. You meet her and the agency after one or two meetings,  tells you she is not interested. In fact she is interested and the agency is also interested, to making more fees and so more money.

[CDW]

Well... lets see.  Depends on how far back I could turn the clock back!  Could I get divorced from my first wife earlier?  Could I not have dated much less married her?  OK, suppose not.

If you had done it, you probably wouldn't have met your current wife!!!  You could have found someone else !!!

[OlgaH]

Personally, I don't want to turn clock back. I don't feel any regrets I married my husband and relocated, and I don't miss my single happy life     only... the long flight from US to Russia is killing... but I can deal with that. 

[Misha]

I have no regrets. I love my wife and she is a wonderful woman. I focus on the present and future.

[TwoBitBandit]

7/ i would have more tolerance with girls. I mean in fsu you have not so much time to assess a girl, if she can be a good mate. The problem is there are many things which interfere with the expression of the truth. You want to call her, phone doesn't ring, in fact the network has a problem. You expect to meet her, she don't show, in fact she hadn't understood because she don't have enough skills in english. You meet her and the agency after one or two meetings,  tells you she is not interested. In fact she is interested and the agency is also interested, to making more fees and so more money.

I also made this mistake: looking back, I let several relationship-worthy girls slip through my fingers by judging things to quickly.  I came VERY close to ditching my present Russian girlfriend over a couple of trivial misunderstandings.  We had quite an entertaining discussion about our different perspectives of those same events once we got to know each other better.


Yet, I also wasted time with girls who weren't serious and just found me an interesting distraction from their everyday lives.  I adopted a rule for myself: "as soon as you know for certain it won't go anywhere, just eject."  Early on, I'd continue to date a girl when I was sure it wouldn't go anywhere just to have something to do when I didn't have any other girls lined up.  On later trips, I just hit the eject button.  If you eject, then at least there is a CHANCE of meeting another girl, even if it means having some downtime.  If you're spending all your time with a girl that has no chance of going anywhere, your chance of meeting other girls is zero.  I'd say I had a fair number of mistakes in both directions: in some cases I ejected too soon, and in others too late.


As I got more experience dating Russian girls and my Russian improved (I now speak it fluently), the problems I had judging girls greatly diminished.  Getting out of the agency circuit also helped.  There ARE good girls in agencies, but the odds are better if you can find a way to fish in a bigger pond.

[Boethius]

I wouldn't have married my present husband and probably wouldn't have relocated to the USA.

[Gator]

I wouldn't have married my present husband and probably wouldn't have relocated to the USA.

Reminds me of the W. C. Fields'  vaudeville joke that he wanted his epitaph to read:  "Here lies WC Fields. On the whole I rather be living in Philadelphia."
 
Doll, what is stopping you now?   I am older than you and I decided I wanted something better.  Not only was my quest an interesting and fun-filled period, I did find a far better woman.

[Gator]

Turning the clock back for me would embrace too much as I have lived an exciting life and have made so many mistakes along the way.    Fretting over mistakes would drive me crazy.   Mistakes are expected if you are creative, risk tolerant and enjoy adventure.  Nevertheless, mistakes are learning opportunities.
 
I almost got bit by a venomous snake yesterday while looking for my golf ball.   It startled me immeasurably for a moment.   Will it stop me from going into the edge of the wetlands?  No.  Will I get bitten someday?  Possibly.  I will probably proceed slower next time.

[XMan]

I wouldn't have married my present husband and probably wouldn't have relocated to the USA.

ouch.

[Doll]

Reminds me of the W. C. Fields'  vaudeville joke that he wanted his epitaph to read:  "Here lies WC Fields. On the whole I rather be living in Philadelphia."
 
Doll, what is stopping you now?   I am older than you and I decided I wanted something better.  Not only was my quest an interesting and fun-filled period, I did find a far better woman.

Nothing. I just answered the OP question. He does not ask what stops me.
USA is too far to go visit my family (too expensive). There are many factors against this country as well. On the other hand, my younger grew up here, and this is his country.
 I wouldn't have married this man just because I wouldn't have done it if I knew what I know now.
 
 

[Patagonie]

I also made this mistake: looking back, I let several relationship-worthy girls slip through my fingers by judging things to quickly.  I came VERY close to ditching my present Russian girlfriend over a couple of trivial misunderstandings.  We had quite an entertaining discussion about our different perspectives of those same events once we got to know each other better.


Yet, I also wasted time with girls who weren't serious and just found me an interesting distraction from their everyday lives.  I adopted a rule for myself: "as soon as you know for certain it won't go anywhere, just eject."  Early on, I'd continue to date a girl when I was sure it wouldn't go anywhere just to have something to do when I didn't have any other girls lined up.  On later trips, I just hit the eject button.  If you eject, then at least there is a CHANCE of meeting another girl, even if it means having some downtime.  If you're spending all your time with a girl that has no chance of going anywhere, your chance of meeting other girls is zero.  I'd say I had a fair number of mistakes in both directions: in some cases I ejected too soon, and in others too late.


As I got more experience dating Russian girls and my Russian improved (I now speak it fluently), the problems I had judging girls greatly diminished.  Getting out of the agency circuit also helped.  There ARE good girls in agencies, but the odds are better if you can find a way to fish in a bigger pond.

Dear 2Bitbandit.
It is a fact that coming from the west as a player needs adjustement in time.
 You cannot have the same game, the same policy with girls.
You are in FSU for ladies (notice the difference). you need to gradually adapt the game to the local dating scene and ALSO if you are aiming a LTR (means a marriage to let her living in US or Europe) to adapt your behavior and your demeanor to the constraints due to this country (distance, costs, problems of communication, importance of the relatives or interpreter or agency, different courting)

1/ For example you don't need a false time constraint, because it is implicite. But you have noticed that, as the culture is different, they have a slow perception of the time. Some, or many of them date you as you were a local guy living in the city. It can be a problem on the beginning because you want to spend a maximum time with a special lady (if you are not making a WOVO or WMVO of course) and you have some times free you want perhaps to also meet an other one (or more) and so you are going to meet situation 2/

2/ The second thing is that it is easy in your country to lead many affair because you can find easy excuse to let "her" know that you are not free. In FSU you cannot too long play this type of excuse and you need to adapt your game. The fundamentals are always the same : what is her level of interest in you ? You need to raise it, you need to not go below a mark because it is game over for you, and you need to assess her level of interest correctly because if it too low you must react quickly and move to the next one, without loosing time IF POSSIBLE.
I think this is the trickest part in FSU. Some are especially skilled and manipulative, helped by the international context. If they let you come along, i mean letting you touch them and touching you, you can be in trouble. The international context put a high level of risk in any relation as you never know what she is hidding, what can happen, and you don't have any clue in time on it.
More beautiful they are, better their english is, and more options they have. A lot of guys mistrust totally that women keep a long time one or several options.

3/ So we hit now the key of the success in such dating : the commitment. And women and men are both under this risk : to not in time go for commitment, but the most difficult is you to do it BOTH, and almost at the same time.

It's why you cannot, in my opinion, or for too long, be the price in FSU gaming. You cannot validate her trought the A3 phase of the MM AND tell when you are in FSU : "tomorrow, you want to meet at 19:00 ? Oh dear XXX i cannot, i would prefer wednesday." Of course she understand in one sec that you are dating an other girl. Some, patient or experienced, can "understand" and let you some time. They never fancy you dating others women.  Very few would accept this a long time. BUT after few times, mandatory, she is loosing interest in you.
When a girl is loosing interest in you, she is : more prone to accept and other date, more prone to chat with Johny, the guy from Kansas she forgot to answer for three days..............................................

You need to assess her level of interest in a realistic manner, which is more difficult for many reasons AND you need to show her your interest, not keeping yours multiples options too long because at the end "a bird in the hands is worth two in the bush"

I don't want to enter also in the problem of a "guy who enters in a candy store", very well know demeanor of newbies and endless hitter who have a personel problem with commitment.
But you have also this type of women with who it is difficult to commit, the dreamers, the ones with psychological issues so, the irrealistic ones .............
In this case only time (by correspondance or by living with them) will show.

4/ Technicaly many things have to be let down. All things which aim to lower their ego have to be forgotten (negs in particular). Due to the bad oral communication, because of poor english level, because of interpreter many games have to be push aside. Even the art of story telling is problematic. You are advantaged 2Bitbandit because you are fluent in russia. Also DHV  have to be used very carefully and in a subtle manner.

I think the more important is :
the body language and all, around  escalation (try to control it or to avoid it because as soon you have start something you are "busy" with a relation).
Location moving (in accordance with escalation)
IOD, takeaways must be used rarely in my opinion (you quicly create negative compliance with an FSU lady with this).
Your material needs to be rewritten and created in accordance with the culture and what FSU girls are waiting.

For example recently we were with a lady and an interpreter. I begin to say : ok now i propose you to try a test. It is a simple test, difficult but simple. It had been written by a psychologist. It helps to show chemistry. Pause, the girl is listening carfully, the interpreter is interested.
Ok i am going (i am beside the girl) to take your hand one minute (now the guy is preparing a chrono with his phone) and after we will reverse. The interpreter will look at you to see if your face is green, red, black (the interpreter begins to smile). Action : i take the hand of the girl, she is almost flushed. I continue to discuss and after few time i suddenly take out my hand and stop the chrono continuing to talk. After a little time i look at her and tell her it's time for you to take my hand (moving my hand from my knee to the couch), she doesn't understand a word of english but here she don't need interpreter, she has already understood and she takes my hand quickly. At the end ? As i had set any chrono, she hold my hand all the time !

And of course your frame is your personality. So be genuine and express it.

One question, about LMR TwoBitBandit, have you noticed special difference between FSU ladies and western girls ?

[TwoBitBandit]

 I agree with you that RW are less tolerant of a guy meeting lots of girls.
 
With the feminist-inspired "hookup culture" among young women in the west, the girls all know that you're meeting other girls.  It's not a black mark.  To the contrary, you have to at least give off a little bit of vibe of having other girls.
 
The FSU is different: women are less tolerant if you are chasing lots of girls.  The problem is for a guy on a visit-many trip is that he has to line up a lot of girls even if he isn’t “really” a player: the logistics and cost just demand that he make efficient use of his time.  My biggest frustration with visit-many is that you can’t really play the dating game as it is meant to be played.  You have to push the dating process faster than it should unfold naturally.
 
You’re right that a lot of the DHV stuff you have to do with western girls can backfire in the FSU.  Jooky made a joke in my trip report along the lines of “Here’s how a western guy gets high status in a nightclub: he enters a nightclub.”  As a westerner you already have high status, and doing too much DHV can ruin a seduction.
 

One question, about LMR TwoBitBandit, have you noticed special difference between FSU ladies and western girls ?

For the amount of time I’ve spent chasing RW, the number I’ve slept with I can count on both hands.  I had the opportunity to sleep with girls that I didn’t consider relationship material for whatever reason, but why do that?  It’s just senselessly burning cycles that could be used to chase other girls.  The cost of on-ground time for me is a few hundred dollars a day without even considering the cost of my time lost from work, so why burn that time just to get a notch?  And the ones that I’ve slept with I spent a lot of face time with, so I didn’t really get much LMR.  It’s as if I’m trying to sleep girls by the so-called seven-hour rule, so getting LMR hasn’t really been an issue for me.
 

[BC]

Should we divorce, would I start signing up at agencies and plan trips to FSU to look for a wife?

Certainly not.  Instead I would continue to place my faith in fate, keep my butt off the couch and be a part of life.

That alone will put me ahead of those seeking their own virtual world... did you know that probably 30% of all internet traffic is porn?.. probably a good 20% on top of that facebook and other social sites?  Discount those already married or in long term relationships and there is very little competition left out there.

I'd probably have more luck going out for a pizza than ordering in.  I tend to do a lot of traveling so that's a plus.

As far as relationships go, life has served me well without having to join an agency or 'enjoy' a FSU social tour.  The relationships I sought after and fought for were the worst.

I think I'll keep it that way, stay active and be patient during the dry spells.

[noelscot]

There are many factors against this country (USA) as well.

Doll, elaborate on the negatives of living in the USA. I honestly would like to know your perspective.
 
I think there are some things that are better about the FSU (Ukraine, for instance), but ya ne gavaryu pa-russki ochen horosho and could never feel at home there. 
 
 

[Doll]

Doll, elaborate on the negatives of living in the USA. I honestly would like to know your perspective.
 
I think there are some things that are better about the FSU (Ukraine, for instance), but ya ne gavaryu pa-russki ochen horosho and could never feel at home there.

I didn't mean "living in the USA"- I have very personal reasons.
 

[noelscot]

I didn't mean "living in the USA"- I have very personal reasons.

I thought maybe you were discussing social problems in the USA, like crime, etc.  Sorry you are not happy here.
Cookies and churney chai never hurt, though.