If you could turn the clock back...

[Doll]

It is hard to have one son there, another here.
Like I said, my reasons are personal.

[Patagonie]

I agree with you that RW are less tolerant of a guy meeting lots of girls.
 
With the feminist-inspired "hookup culture" among young women in the west, the girls all know that you're meeting other girls.  It's not a black mark.  To the contrary, you have to at least give off a little bit of vibe of having other girls.
 
The FSU is different: women are less tolerant if you are chasing lots of girls.  The problem is for a guy on a visit-many trip is that he has to line up a lot of girls even if he isn’t “really” a player: the logistics and cost just demand that he make efficient use of his time.  My biggest frustration with visit-many is that you can’t really play the dating game as it is meant to be played.  You have to push the dating process faster than it should unfold naturally.
 
You’re right that a lot of the DHV stuff you have to do with western girls can backfire in the FSU.  Jooky made a joke in my trip report along the lines of “Here’s how a western guy gets high status in a nightclub: he enters a nightclub.”  As a westerner you already have high status, and doing too much DHV can ruin a seduction.
 
For the amount of time I’ve spent chasing RW, the number I’ve slept with I can count on both hands.  I had the opportunity to sleep with girls that I didn’t consider relationship material for whatever reason, but why do that?  It’s just senselessly burning cycles that could be used to chase other girls.  The cost of on-ground time for me is a few hundred dollars a day without even considering the cost of my time lost from work, so why burn that time just to get a notch?  And the ones that I’ve slept with I spent a lot of face time with, so I didn’t really get much LMR.  It’s as if I’m trying to sleep girls by the so-called seven-hour rule, so getting LMR hasn’t really been an issue for me.

.

I agree that you have to shorter the process and make a decision not too late or interest's girl is decreasing. .

I have made quite the opposite mistake than you. I mean in my first trips (first five months) i was so serious about my goal that i push away the sexuality part of relationship, which was a mistake, because i lost time with an advanced prodater. Fortunately she didn't screw me, but if i would had lett things coming in a natural way i would have avoid this loss of time.
For the rest i avoid to push meetings too far too quickly, staying in control. I can game anytime in my country and i consider FSU only for  serious things, being conscious of the pitfall that you have met. Now about LMR, having less statiscal experiences than you in FSU it's difficult to find a rule. But what i feel is that as you have a lot of comfort (i am very good about this topic), enough dhv (easy to get), and as there isn't this sort of barrier behind it WM take refuge to build their bitchshield in FSU. Consequently they live their sexuality is the continuum of their feminity. Which means they live it plenty and freely. So if you respect the basics LMR mustn't appear almost all of cases. I have met twice and for reasons well identified, just the relation stopped, but it should had been possible to cross it.

[Chicagoguy]

Looking back, I wouldn't do anything different. Never any problem women but that may be because they were all older. Met my wife and all others on free sites. Next week it will be three years since she arrived and we couldn't be happier !
But I believe we were lucky. Would I ever  this again ?  NO

[Patagonie]

I am sure that chance take a big part, but you have to let it come.

[Eduard]

It is hard to have one son there, another here.
Like I said, my reasons are personal.

That's understandable, sometimes people become disappointed in or disillusioned with their spouse. It happens. And off course having a child living across the ocean is probably very difficult. I feel for you, Doll.

[calmissile]

If I could turn the clock back, what would I do different (based upon what I have learned)?
1.  I would apply the knowledge of all the 'red flags' that apply after you have meet someone.
2.  I would not excuse rude or bad behavior as just being a 'cultural difference'.
3.  I would not go to Ukraine with the attitude of finding a wife, but rather to experience the culture and meet a lot of people and make friends.
4.  I would have learned enough of the Russian alphabet to allow me to navigate the trains, roads, etc. without an interpreter.
5.  I would not have been so generous with spending money on a FSU woman since it is generally seen as trying to 'buy her love".
6.  I would not have started the visa process until I was fully sure of the woman's love and long term intentions.

My new plan...
1.  Going to Ukraine for 2-3 months  (July-Sept) without the goal of needing to find a wife.
2.  Visit friends previously met in Ukraine as well as some US friends that are resident in Ukraine.
3.  Visit several ladies that I have had contact with on Skype and emails to see is there is chemistry between us.  Have no preconceived expectations.
4.  Not have a rigid schedule.  Float around and enjoy the night life, the sights, and leave the potential open to share vacation time with some of the ladies that have already suggested it.
5.  Find an interpreter/guide in each city to meet me at the train/bus station and get me an apartment and be on call as needed.
6.  Stay loose and take it day by day.
7.  Get together with other members of RWD as schedules permit.
8.  Meet only with women that speak English.  That has been my policy recently and am surprised at how many women speak English and can chat on Skype and email in very good English.  It just makes it a whole lot easier.

Whether I meet my future wife or not is not important.  There is no sense spending all that money for a trip with a goal that might be  later viewed as a waste of time and money.  I will consider the vacation experience well worth the money regardless of the romantic outcome.

[BC]

I would not change anything.

I would not look for a wife.
I would let women gravitate towards me rather than forcing my gravity upon them.
I would continue to be patient and confident that things would go my way when they should rather than when I want.
I would do whatever it takes to travel and get more exposure.
I would continue to date and not interview marriage prospects.
I would not push myself into marriage until the time I thought was right.

Guess what... It's always worked and ultimately landed me with a RW, which is now my longest relationship, close to 10 years married.

[GregfromGa]

Looking back there are numerous things I couldve done differently. I have 2 wonderful children out of this what turned out to be a fiasco. Biggest mistake I made was allowing mother-in-law to spend so much time here. I slowly watched my sweet wife become her mother. For someone that had hot water 3 months out of the year, no ac, no car, no job and living in a God forsaken village her level of self importance and vain is staggering. My kids are being raised like it is the USSR all over again. My wife and her mother feel I should have absolutely no say in anything concerning my kids. They try their best to turn them against their father. It will not work. I mean how hard is it to try and be nice. Last summer I allowed my wife to take the kids to Ukraine for a month. She never allowed them to be on the phone with me even once. She would say they do not want to talk. Well my signature is required for my little girl to receive a new passport. I will never do this again. My children will not be going back because I know there is a better than average chance that they might not return. I honestly thought I had most of this process figured out but in the end I didnt know shit it seems. My soon to be ex and her mother are just wired differently. Obviously I didnt read the cliffnotes on this whole FSU marriage. I hungout in this community for a number of years. Made a few friends and made a few enemies. I had a nice story for a while. I just feel so terrible for my kids. They are so innocent in all of this mess.

[ECOCKS]

Wouldn't do a thing differently about courtship and relationship except maybe have lived with her longer before getting married.

I would have not returned to the US is about the only thing I wish I could change in the last 6 years.

[Chicagoguy]

GregfromGa,
Sorry situation. Don't know that you could have forseen this.

[Muzh]

@GregfromGa - Sorry to hear about that. Don't lose your kids. Be there always for them. Eventually, they'll figure it out.

[GQBlues]

...I honestly thought I had most of this process figured out but in the end I didn't know shit it seems. My soon to be ex and her mother are just wired differently. Obviously I didn't read the cliffnotes on this whole FSU marriage....

This is what I firmly believe is so wrong with these unions. Not just specifically FSU, but the entire concept of MOBs. It is so easy for men to overlook this very basic fact during the chase. Personally, this is the single biggest hurdle for me to learn to be patient with with my wonderful partner.

I suppose many men involved in this do openly and gladly forsake their norm, and welcome hers into their world. I can't. My 'norm' happens to be the world 'we' live in. I can see doing this if we lived in Russia ~ but we do not.

Even living here, there are pockets in many communities of different ethnicity/cultures that seem to refuse to integrate with the general society. This mentality I don't, or cannot, understand. I'm not saying there's anything 'wrong' with that per se...I'm just saying it just doesn't seem to be, for want of a better term - harmonious.

This is why if I had to do this over again - I will not.

My wife, to her credit however had really changed over the years and do see many of the differences/similarities/advantages/disadvantages on her own. Sometimes she's even starting to shy away from her FSU friends because she said they are starting to annoy her, and she is not liking the 'natural tendency' of looking at their lives through FSU prisms and try to make sense of it living where they do.

This is not a slap to the FSU way of living as the same could be said if the entire situation is reversed.


GfromG: As always ~ Good luck. I hope for everyone's sake, things will work out OK.

[Gator]

Greg,
 
I am so sorry to learn that your situation has declined to this level..From having met you and your wife, I thought the two of you were very close. 
 
I agree with what Muzh says about your kids.  You have rights.  Considering the children's parents, I am sure the kids are beautiful, and so innocent, yet easily impressed by their mother.  Good luck!
 
Finally, I agree with what GQ says about assimilation.  Some RW adjust yet do not assimilate.  Reminds me of the "ugly Americans" I met when working overseas, living behind walls and not embracing the country where they resided.   I really do not know how to encourage assimilation if a RW avoids it.
 
Where you lived there were few perhaps no RW expats, so she naturally gravitated to her mother.   Did you wife have close American friends?    Did she try?
 
Again, good luck as you go through this wringer.

[GregfromGa]

GQ, Gator,MUZH,Chicago Guy, thanks for the kind words. I've always respected each of your opinions. GQ you again hit the nail on the head. In the 8 years that my wife has been here she has not once tried having a friendship with anyone longer than 15 minutes. She maintains all the American women are just not educated and pretty as her or because they might not have a job. The constant comparisons made to and about different ladies are astounding.The jealousy is so strong. We tried a few Russian and Ukrainian friends over the years but the same held true. She would talk for an hour on the phone and when they were finsih she would then bash them for an hour for different reasons. I honestly attribute most of this to her mother who has served as her best friend and they talk everyday and have since we married. I made 6 trips back and forth while we were dating. I never saw this but I wasnt looking. Not one friend attended our wedding. Looking back she had no friends in Ukraine except her sister. It's really sad. I see how my ex is with our daughter. She totally smothers her with no discipline whatsoever. Never a word of English. I honestly think my ex has some sort of mental problems and probably has since she was a child but I'm no doctor. I know there is a long line of us here that has failed at this endeavor. I used to say there is certainly no science to it and thats so true. I think I have a rather good sense of humor. Years ago my wife did as well. I would never have married a gilr that couldnt make me laugh. I've never brought a smile much less a laugh to my mother-in-law's face and she lived with us for 1100+ days. I tried to be a good son-in-law but I was never going to be good enough. After talking with us 3 for 2 hours a  Russian Orthodox Priest really lit her ass up about how involved she was in our lives, how controling and dominating she was. My wife and her mom decided to just not go back to church there. I'm not going to ramble on here. I've rambled enough since this place started. Most of the posters here feel for me and some like it. It is what it is I guess.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Most of the posters here feel for me and some like it. It is what it is I guess.

Greg, you got my sympathies.  I understand how hard it is but it will get better.

I would hope no one would be happy to hear such bad news.  If some are happy, that says more about them than you.

[TheTraveler]

Would you go about it exactly as you did or change tactics a little, or change the whole approach... And if so how would you change it.

I wouldn't change a thing... not one iota!

[Vasilisa]

-Would be less tolerant and less loyal: a red flag is a red flag. If there there is more than one red flag leave him and move on.
-Wouldn't move to the US because "he doesn't know Russian and he can't find a nice job in Russia but has a lot of benefits in the US".

[calmissile]

Greg,
I am so sorry to hear that things have not worked out for you and your wife.  Your post is both educational and enlightening for those of us that have not yet made the plunge into marriage with a FSU woman.

In order for you to have hung in there for 8 years in the environment you describe says a lot about your character.  You certainly deserve much better.  I do hope that you are able to keep close contact and/or get custody of your children.  Your comment that she does not speak to your daughter in English is puzzling.  I cannot imagine such a thing.

One of the lessons I get from your report will cause me to rethink priorities when pursuing a FSU woman.  It seems that many FSU women that come to the US refuse to assimilate and accept our culture.  I am not sure how to go about determining this in advance but it seems it should be on the top of the list when dating and in search of a FSU wife.  You might want to offer some advice as to how to detect these attitudes in advance.

Best of luck to you, and don't let the lawyers eat you alive.

[Vasilisa]

GQ, Gator,MUZH,Chicago Guy, thanks for the kind words. I've always respected each of your opinions. GQ you again hit the nail on the head. In the 8 years that my wife has been here she has not once tried having a friendship with anyone longer than 15 minutes. She maintains all the American women are just not educated and pretty as her or because they might not have a job. The constant comparisons made to and about different ladies are astounding.The jealousy is so strong. We tried a few Russian and Ukrainian friends over the years but the same held true. She would talk for an hour on the phone and when they were finsih she would then bash them for an hour for different reasons. I honestly attribute most of this to her mother who has served as her best friend and they talk everyday and have since we married. I made 6 trips back and forth while we were dating. I never saw this but I wasnt looking. Not one friend attended our wedding. Looking back she had no friends in Ukraine except her sister. It's really sad. I see how my ex is with our daughter. She totally smothers her with no discipline whatsoever. Never a word of English. I honestly think my ex has some sort of mental problems and probably has since she was a child but I'm no doctor. I know there is a long line of us here that has failed at this endeavor. I used to say there is certainly no science to it and thats so true. I think I have a rather good sense of humor. Years ago my wife did as well. I would never have married a gilr that couldnt make me laugh. I've never brought a smile much less a laugh to my mother-in-law's face and she lived with us for 1100+ days. I tried to be a good son-in-law but I was never going to be good enough. After talking with us 3 for 2 hours a  Russian Orthodox Priest really lit her ass up about how involved she was in our lives, how controling and dominating she was. My wife and her mom decided to just not go back to church there. I'm not going to ramble on here. I've rambled enough since this place started. Most of the posters here feel for me and some like it. It is what it is I guess.

Greg, I am also sorry about what happened. I guess we both have suffered from the same thing: our spouses to have unusually close (for their age) relationships with their parents.
I was in a similar situation, so I understand you well: no matter how nice you are trying to be and no matter how many efforts you are trying to apply, no matter how flexible you are and how many compromises you make  it doesn't work. In your case it was a priest who showed you how bad it was, in my situation it was a marriage councelor.

I made my own conclusions which sounds too tough for some people who haven't been into all those things and made my own life lesson. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
You are in a better situation though: it's all in your territory and you have your friends and relatives to support you, you know the law, I was in a different situation but managed to get out and feel a lot better.
I wish you the best and I hope that it will end soon.

[pitbull]

Your comment that she does not speak to your daughter in English is puzzling.  I cannot imagine such a thing.

Why is it puzzling? Actually, it is a great idea when raising a bilingual child: the one parent-one language approach. My husband constantly tells me I talk in English too much to our daughter. He would strongly prefer I only speak Russian to her. We have a Russian-only speaking nanny as well.
It is really difficult to maintaing full bilingualism in a child who is being raised in the US. English is never a problem, Russian is extremely difficult to keep up. That's why mother only speaking Russian to a child is the best way available.

[CanadaMan]

Looking back, I wouldn't do anything different....
But I believe we were lucky. Would I ever  this again ?  NO

  Strange contradiction there Chicagoguy, no?

"I wouldn't do anything different"
"Would I ever  this again ? NO"   

[calmissile]

Why is it puzzling? Actually, it is a great idea when raising a bilingual child: the one parent-one language approach. My husband constantly tells me I talk in English too much to our daughter. He would strongly prefer I only speak Russian to her. We have a Russian-only speaking nanny as well.
It is really difficult to maintaing full bilingualism in a child who is being raised in the US. English is never a problem, Russian is extremely difficult to keep up. That's why mother only speaking Russian to a child is the best way available.

OK, I accept your explanation. 

[pitbull]

OK, I accept your explanation. 

Noooooo..... Are you saying we're not gonna fight in this thread???? 

[Chicagoguy]

  Strange contradiction there Chicagoguy, no?

"I wouldn't do anything different"
"Would I ever  this again ? NO"   

I agree it was strange. Saw that after I posted. What I mean is I am too old to try this again.

[ECOCKS]

One of the lessons......will cause me to rethink priorities when pursuing a FSU woman.  It seems that many FSU women that come to the US refuse to assimilate and accept our culture.  I am not sure how to go about determining this in advance but it seems it should be on the top of the list when dating and in search of a FSU wife. 

Good observation Cal. You cannot over-communicate with the gal on this subject.

The woman WILL try to shutdown at some point because they believe that it's all easy to understand. Then they get here and are over-whelmed that language doesn't magically manifest itself, jobs are not hanging from the branches of the trees and cars are mandatory.

The whole FSU friends thing is a mish-mash of contradictions. I was fortunate that my wife took the attitude that she already had Russian/Ukrainian friends and didn't need more.

Look closely at their work ethic and try to get some sort of understanding as to their willingness to retrain for those better jobs. Going back to school is a wild concept for many of them to swallow, far tougher than for Americans raised in a culture where continuing education booklets are in the paper and ads for private colleges are on every 20 minutes. Push the English hard because it gets tougher to learn when you get here if you picked a gal who had little or no English.

Same with driving. Get their license before coming over and consider getting them a beater to bump around in for the first year.

Again, they will grow irritated that you want to keep hammering at this subject but believe me, you cannot over-communicate on the relocation issues and the question of hat they think their typical day will be like.