Are Women's Opinions Really Welcome Here?

[Vasilisa]

Well, guys, I need to go.
I have a group of people who are coming today, so I need to bake a coconut cake, make a strawberry spring salad, potato salad, pot roast, etc.
Have a great evening!
PS: jason, that's a top secret!

[newjason]

LOL.


So my evil plan worked perfectly.   

[Gator]

I have not read the entire thread.  With that caveat, I offer four opinions (your opinions may differ and that is OK):
 
1.  Vasilisa is a valuable contributor.  She offers the insight of a RW whose marriage failed, yet has not given up on marriage or AM.  Her perspective is rarely heard at RWD.   I am pleased to see her still at RWD.   
 
2.  I recall that most of the men who are critical of RW opinions are single men, many of whom have not taken a trip to the FSU.  It is as if the "RW speak" conflicts with their preconceived notions about RW.
 
3.  The RW opinions annoy me at times.  I can deal with it because everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet sometimes I am annoyed sufficiently to require a "time out."   
 
4.  The annoying opinions seem not to reflect a general RW mentality but vary by individual.   A statement of the obvious because if there were some annoying behavior common to all RW,  I would not be dating RW. 
 
Enough of this women talk.  Time to watch the Masters Golf Tournament!!!

[pitbull]

I have collected many expressions and statements of one Ukraine woman who post here and on another site.  I have put together a portfolio of this woman's expressions and statements and shown to many foreign men as to the type of Ukraine woman they could end up with if they are not careful.  What an eye opener for many of these men.    The exact same type woman they are hoping not to find in Ukraine or Russia.

Care to share this portfolio? Now, that would be a cool new thread 

[XMan]

Care to share this portfolio? Now, that would be a cool new thread 

It certainly would.

+1

[Boethius]

There was a thread on this forum by an AM who works half of his time in Russia (and half in the US) -http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11248.0
This person wanted to talk about what he knew about Russia and RW. He presented himself in a little bit rough way but it was just a mixture of "cultures"- he did not sugarcoat what he thought.
 He thinks that the whole MOB "thing" is quite ugly and doubtful.
Of course, he was attacked by AM members and then banned.
I find his knowledge much more truthful and realistic then anobody else's.
He knew both sides! This made AM mad, of course.
 Bottom line- people here just do not want to hear opinions that are different from theirs. Period.

Doll, Amerkanski was not banned because of his views.  He was banned because when asked not to attack other posters aggressively, he disregarded the mods' requests.  He also threatened to attack the forum, and when asked to clarify, he refused.

[Anotherkiwi]

Doll, Amerkanski was not banned because of his views.  He was banned because when asked not to attack other posters aggressively, he disregarded the mods' requests.  He also threatened to attack the forum, and when asked to clarify, he refused.

I followed the link, not realising that the thread in question was 29 pages long (I read the lot), and mainly  !  Several hours (and hundreds of posts) later, and very much in need of a restorative, I return to this thread...to find that it has hardly moved at all, yet is already five pages long!
 
I DON'T profess to be an expert on RW/UW, but I DO agree with Gator, based on what I've seen in my time on RWD and the RW/UW I've met and dated.
 

I have not read the entire thread. With that caveat, I offer four opinions (your opinions may differ and that is OK):

1. Vasilisa is a valuable contributor. She offers the insight of a RW whose marriage failed, yet has not given up on marriage or AM. Her perspective is rarely heard at RWD. I am pleased to see her still at RWD.

2. I recall that most of the men who are critical of RW opinions are single men, many of whom have not taken a trip to the FSU. It is as if the "RW speak" conflicts with their preconceived notions about RW.

3. The RW opinions annoy me at times. I can deal with it because everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet sometimes I am annoyed sufficiently to require a "time out."

4. The annoying opinions seem not to reflect a general RW mentality but vary by individual. A statement of the obvious because if there were some annoying behavior common to all RW, I would not be dating RW.

1.  Yes, Vasilisa is a breath of fresh air, and I have enjoyed reading her posts.  However, although calmissile was way out of line with the way he expressed his opinion of her, Vasilisa contributed to that in part by what she had posted earlier.  IMO (and remember this is just MY opinion), part of the reason may simply be "the language thing."  Even though her English is extremely good, Vasilisa is not a native speaker.  It may simply be that what she wrote wasn't exactly what she meant (if it comes out wrong when native speakers say or write it, what hope is there for the rest of the world?).
 
2.  Still single, but "been there."  Two WOVOs, although I met someone else briefly on the second trip after the WOVO bombed.  Absolute chalk and cheese - the first would make someone a wonderful wife (although there was no chemistry between us), the second was the epitome of the "entitlement" attitude that people men complain so loudly about.  She did not spend one kopeck of her own money while she was with me, not even to buy aspirin or top up her mobile phone.  I'd said that I would pay for the holiday, but that was ridiculous!
 
3 and 4.  Totally agree, but with the rider that even those who I sometimes consider to be a PITA still normally contribute bucket-loads of common sense.
 
Finally, to get back to the actual question which is the title of this thread - the simple answer is "not always."  The theory may be fine, and there are plenty of women who DO post here, but the simple truth is that there are plenty of posters who just don't want to listen to their opinions (refer to Gator's point number 2).  It takes a lot of getting used to, but if you can cope with the direct approach of an FSUW here then you at least have a chance of living with it in the real world.

[ML]

. . . if you can cope with the direct approach of an FSUW here then you at least have a chance of living with it in the real world.

This 'direct' idea is getting a bit carried away.

It is achieving the same status as the silliness about the 'Russian Soul.'

Directness as often practiced is pure rudeness . . . nothing less.

It should not be explained away by some idea that it is acceptable if coming from FSU people.

When we westerners start to accept it as normal, it just encourages the practitioners to become even more rude; because it is OK for them to do so based on genetics or culture or whatever.

I have met and interacted with hundreds of FSU people in business and social situations; and very few are direct to the point of rudeness.

Directness is only used as an euphemism for rudeness so that it exempts the practitioners from responsibility to act humane.

Don't accept it; and certainly stop encouraging it or explaining it away.

[Anotherkiwi]

This 'direct' idea is getting a bit carried away.

It is achieving the same status as the silliness about the 'Russian Soul.'

Directness as often practiced is pure rudeness . . . nothing less.

It should not be explained away by some idea that it is acceptable if coming from FSU people.

When we westerners start to accept it as normal, it just encourages the practitioners to become even more rude; because it is OK for them to do so based on genetics or culture or whatever.

I have met and interacted with hundreds of FSU people in business and social situations; and very few are direct to the point of rudeness.

Directness is only used as an euphemism for rudeness so that it exempts the practitioners from responsibility to act humane.

Don't accept it; and certainly stop encouraging it or explaining it away.

ML, I agree with you.  I'm referring only to the "direct" part where they "tell it like it is," NOT when it degenerates into rudeness.  There are plenty of westerners with the same attitude.

[Ade]

This 'direct' idea is getting a bit carried away.

It is achieving the same status as the silliness about the 'Russian Soul.'

Directness as often practiced is pure rudeness . . . nothing less.

It should not be explained away by some idea that it is acceptable if coming from FSU people.

When we westerners start to accept it as normal, it just encourages the practitioners to become even more rude; because it is OK for them to do so based on genetics or culture or whatever.

I have met and interacted with hundreds of FSU people in business and social situations; and very few are direct to the point of rudeness.

Directness is only used as an euphemism for rudeness so that it exempts the practitioners from responsibility to act humane.

Don't accept it; and certainly stop encouraging it or explaining it away.

A lot of it comes as a function of the language. For instance, the constant "please's", "thank you's", and "excuse me's" used in English just don't happen in Russian and that is interpreted as directness or sometimes rudeness by native English speakers. Norwegian is similar but not quite as extreme and it took me a while to get used to it - perhaps it's rubbed off on my posting style.

[Ade]

ML, I agree with you.  I'm referring only to the "direct" part where they "tell it like it is," NOT when it degenerates into rudeness.  There are plenty of westerners with the same attitude.

You also have to remember, I lot of what is interpreted as "rudeness" on forums is entirely in the mind of the offended person. They've read a tone or inference into a post which just doesn't exist - this happens so often it isn't even funny any more.

[Gylden]

I read somewhere that effective communication consists of 60% body language, 30% tone and 10% of the subject matter or written matter.
Maybe this is one of the reasons why forums can erupt into personal attacks so easily.
In combination with the rule of assumption..assume = ass..u..me.

[Doll]

Directness as often practiced is pure rudeness . . . nothing less.

by Americans. The "style" of speech is very different in two cultures.
Plus it is internet where people are even more direct.
"Second language" as well makes posting very brief.
Also, people just just don't have much time to "spread the thoughts"
Where Americans write paragraphs after paragraphs Russian speaking will just drop one phrase.
This is how it is, you need to accept it.

[Donna_Pedro]

Directness is only used as an euphemism for rudeness so that it exempts the practitioners from responsibility to act humane.

you guys created an alternative reality here.  A culture, where directness and  speaking your mind is considered rude. I have struggled for years to beat this sht out of my husband and not to let school system to turn my child into a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby like the rest of your children.Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

[Doll]

you guys created an alternative reality here.  A culture, where directness and  speaking your mind is considered rude. I have struggled for years to beat this sht out of my husband and not to let school system to turn my child into a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby like the rest of your children.Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

It took me years to start understanding what Americans really mean behind tons of words and sugarcoating.
Same experience with my son(and husband) here.
Agree 100%.

[Gylden]

you guys created an alternative reality here.  A culture, where directness and  speaking your mind is considered rude. I have struggled for years to beat this sht out of my husband and not to let school system to turn my child into a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby like the rest of your children.Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

Do you really beat your husband?
Do you really think all of the mens children here are zombies?
or are you just not really being clear?

[oldernotwiser]

you guys created an alternative reality here.  A culture, where directness and  speaking your mind is considered rude. I have struggled for years to beat this sht out of my husband and not to let school system to turn my child into a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby like the rest of your children.Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

Question for you then, the topic is, are russian women's opinions really welcome here?  Should we worry about  offending any of the ladies here by posting in a direct manner when we disagree with a poster, if they are a women??  You are saying that you are use to direct speech, if someone does not like something they make it clear in few words.  Seems to me you are saying that if someone disagrees with you you would prefer they told you that in concise language.  Hence the need to "beat this sht out of my husband".  By the way, I got a good chuckle out of that statement, I am assuming you were speaking metaphorically 

[newjason]

In the west we have (had) adopted moral that says

"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all"

It's Thumper's rule from the move Bambi.

I wonder If there is something similar taught in the FSU?

[Donna_Pedro]

Question for you then, the topic is, are russian women's opinions really welcome here?  Should we worry about  offending any of the ladies here by posting in a direct manor when we disagree with a poster, if they are a women??  You are saying that you are use to direct speech, if someone does not like something they make it clear in few words.  Seems to me you are saying that if someone disagrees with you you would prefer they told you that in concise language.  Hence the need to "beat this sht out of my husband".  By the way, I got a good chuckle out of that statement, I am assuming you were speaking metaphorically 

your assumption is correct. I had to struggle to have my husband drop his "southern politeness"  if not around other people but at least around me.  To answer your question - no, you do not need to be worried about offending me. I treat people the way I want to be treated myself. So be direct and you will get directness back. Offend me - and you woulnt know what hit you. You would not see me complaining, thats for sure.

[Gylden]

From my experience Americans are taught to be direct and to the point, but the political correctness environment has clouded this a bit for sure.
The two are completely different issues although.
Also I believe that someone can be direct and to the point without being rude or insulting and I think this is the real issue at hand.
 
Some people use insults and/or rudeness to get attention (reactions) and quite often it does.

[Gator]

 
It speaks volumes that some female representatives of a culture seemingly do not appreciate conversational etiquette.      I don't believe them.  They welcome courteous acts, so why not courteous words.   Deep inside they appreciate a smile.   They subconsciously appreciate all such politeness, even if they do not realize their internal ease and calm.    "Ceremonies are different in every country, but true politeness everywhere is the same."   
 
To those men who have not yet travelled to the FSU,  there are many polite FSUW.  I know because I met many.  I did not have to peel back layers to find a gentle aura.   In one case, an ethereal beauty.   
 
Keep in mind that these gentle souls were not so polite when interacting with strangers in their own country.    Skepticism does not smile.   Gruffness does not receive a smile.  Huffy actions do not receive gentle responses.  Oddly, vodka is a ceremony such that strangers sharing vodka become friendly.   

 
What is peculiar?  Many Latin Americans consider  Americans rude for not smiling more and not taking the time for ceremonial dialogue.

[Belvis]

you guys created an alternative reality here.  A culture, where directness and  speaking your mind is considered rude. I have struggled for years to beat this sht out of my husband and not to let school system to turn my child into a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby like the rest of your children.Directness is used to be perfectly clear on things. American infamous"politeness" clowds and twists reality.

I'm in strange position to defend american infamous"politeness" risking to be beat by Donna_Pedro.
I suspect she refers to hypocrisy under a mask of politeness. Yes, can be the case. But directness also has the reverse side in form of plain rudeness and impudence. I would prefer hypocritical smile over sincere hatred. And please don't forget political correctness keeps the stability of multinational multicultural society.
 "a politically correct  pseudo-polite zomby" sounds disgusting in sweeping generalization.
I've got to know through my experience RW are not so bad as they want to show sometimes.  If you didn't see the their dark side how can you appreciate their bright side?

[Misha]

Political correctness keeps being mentioned, but I am curious how people actually define the term.

[Vaughn]

Very often it's the style of delivery in directness that will either invite further productive conversation or establish a line in the sand. Witness this scenario that just happened this morning. My wife had been receiving some fairly threatening letters from our State Dept of Revenue over a 2007 issue. Clearly, I knew there was an oversight or error involved. We made the trip this morning, and despite anticipating a fight over her assets was greeted and managed with directness and respect. Upon leaving the building, my wife remarked how "even the tax man is friendly".
 
Not so in her native land, to where she shortly travels, and dreads having to face and deal with the condescendence and sarcasm of service sector workers who routinely ride roughshod over the dignity of ordinary people.

Political correctness keeps being mentioned, but I am curious how people actually define the term.

Misha, I've always considered it a matter of choice of words, say for instance, using the term "underdeveloped nation" rather than "Third World Country", so as to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.
 
 

[Misha]

Misha, I've always considered it a matter of choice of words, say for instance, using the term "underdeveloped nation" rather than "Third World Country", so as to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. 

That is the way that I see it as well, and I don't quite understand why this is derided. Is not calling someone who was born with some intellectual disabilities "retarded" such a bad thing if it helps them be better accepted? Is not using overtly racist language such a bad thing? Is recognizing the fact that women can and do work as police officers and firefighters such an onerous demand 


The problem with directness is that is should not be confused with rudeness and incivility. As ML points out, culture should not be an excuse for bad behavior.