Why would russian women want an average american man?

[calmissile]

I'm just saying that the work ethic as any other ethic during the Soviet time was controlled by the Government. There were different kind of committees at every institution, plant, factory and so on. So I would say your statements "that during the Soviet times, the work ethic was terrible including people being drunk on the job and missing from work after weekend binges" is not correct.

Thanks for the correction by you and Mendy.  Now, please clear up whether this work ethic issue was totally incorrect in the various places I read it, or was the statement true after the post-Soviet collapse?

[OlgaH]

Thanks for the correction by you and Mendy.  Now, please clear up whether this work ethic issue was totally incorrect in the various places I read it, or was the statement true after the post-Soviet collapse?

to say "that during the Soviet times, the work ethic was terrible..." I think would be incorrect. During the post soviet time the work ethics is still controlled by employers.

Of course things happened during the Soviet time but there always was punishment too... for mere mortals. 

[I/O]

Correct, due to the fear factor as consequences were very real. The rates of alcoholism exploded in the economic free fall after the end of Communist rule.

Interesting...............I recall seeing a reel to reel video as a kid at school in the 1970's, perhaps '76 or '77 where the problem of Vodka drinking in Russia was reported as becoming an issue of national concern - certainly, as with everything else cold war, what we saw would have been through the prism of western reporting but nevertheless, I found it interesting at the time yet many now say these issues didn't exist to any great extent prior to the Gorby years?

[mendeleyev]

I/O, it was not as large of a problem during times of economic and political stability. One of the sources I listed up thread alludes to this trending effect:

The Environmental and Health Atlas of Russia edited by Murray Feshbach in 1995 is an excellent primary source of statistics regarding social, economic, and health issues in Russia. In 1993 the number of alcoholics in Russia rose by 40.8%. There was a stunning increase in alcoholism in women by 48.1%. 80-94% of girls between 15 and 17 drank sometimes and 17% drank often.

As to the question of alcoholism during the Soviet years we have another issue; the lack of reliable data from that time. The CCCP wasn't exactly the keeper of the truth and data from the Soviet period is often suspect. However, the Lancet Medical Journal writing about the Gorbachev period, reported:

"President [Mikhail] Gorbachev's anti-alcohol campaign in the mid-1980s was associated with an immediate rise in life expectancy, whereas increased alcohol consumption has been linked to rising mortality in the early 1990s during the transition from communism. Deaths related to alcohol, such as acute alcohol poisoning and liver cirrhosis, showed the greatest fluctuations, with similar trends for other causes plausibly linked to alcohol consumption."

Source: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2007/06/18/2003365803


This shows that drinking was an issue then but that it was dealt with and results improved. That is the point I believe Olga was making, of accountability. If you came in to work drunk back then there were conditions and controls in place to deal with the issue.

Calm's question was one of work ethic. You and I may remember the term "wrecking" as such was a prominent theme in Soviet society. To be a "wrecker" meant one didn't take the revolution seriously and a bad work ethic was supposedly an indicator that one was trying to derail the great common goal of building socialism. "Wreckers" depending on the time period, could be shot or sent to a Gulag, or in more lenient times punished by loss of status and privileges.

The Soviet system was bankrupt both as an ideology and a failure as the manager of the means of production. The downfall would have eventually happened regardless if everyone was sober or drunk.

[I/O]

times of economic and political stability.

That phrase and Russia in the one sentence is an oxymoron if ever I saw one LOL. One would need to look to the mid 1700's or earlier to be certain on both counts.
 
Anyway, that's an aside, my question is, why was this being reported in the 70's if not a problem or developing problem? This claim doesn't concur with comments from my MIL, Grand MIL and many others, some of whom still pine for yesteryear but also offer this as being perhaps as much of a problem then as now - simply better hidden then.

[Eduard]

Our results also indicate a strong but complex link between economic strain and binge drinking. The odds ratios for binge drinking of men experiencing manifold economic problems were almost twice as high compared to those for men with few economic problems.

I don't know, Jim. I think this can go either way. If a person is a drunk he is not going to do well economically speaking.
The Soviet elite had few economic problems yet they had their binges too. Read about Stalin and his closest circle, how they had binge drinking parties... it's in the culture. If you don't drink - you are suspicious, there is something wrong with you or you are hiding something. Yes it's changed somewhat since the Soviet times because in the capitalist system they won't put you in front a committee and scold you (but they couldn't fire you), now you will just get fired and be out on the street with your problems. Plus a very tough DWI law also keeps many in check since they can't afford to loose their driver license. But it is in the culture. I know what I know, I grew up in that culture and no statistician's report can change my mind on this.

[mendeleyev]

Ed, those results aren't mine, but they actually support much of what you say. This is a subject where official government statistics actually agreed with legitimate independent studies and the rates of alcoholism apparently went up dramatically during the economic collapse after the Soviet fall.

I've been to business meetings where my refusal to go beyond 2 shots/toasts made me highly suspect. But I have also walked out of those office settings several hours later and encountered just as many individuals who understood and respect my limits.

The bottom line seems to be this: we've come rather quickly to a point in this discussion where I guess it seems that most seem to agree that most if not ALL Russian men are drunks, according to the post I challenged. I just fundamentally disagree with that view.

[mendeleyev]

I/O:

That phrase and Russia in the one sentence is an oxymoron if ever I saw one LOL. One would need to look to the mid 1700's or earlier to be certain on both counts

Agreed, yet almost every week there is some group parading around some monument, usually made up of older folk with Stalin signs, asking for the good ole days of economic and political stability. 
 

I/O:

Anyway, that's an aside, my question is, why was this being reported in the 70's if not a problem or developing problem? This claim doesn't concur with comments from my MIL, Grand MIL and many others, some of whom still pine for yesteryear but also offer this as being perhaps as much of a problem then as now - simply better hidden then.

I don't recall anyone here, including you or I, saying that it wasn't a problem. I've said that one alcoholic is one too many. Some of the studies I posted, including a couple that would disagree with my view, show it a problem at various times including during the Soviet period. One study seemed to suggest a 1 in 5 death rate due to alcohol related causes. Even if true, that would be 20%, not the "most if not ALL" approach taken by far too many in the MOB industry.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Not my experience.
 
Why would a RW who enjoys sex before marriage stop enjoying sex after marriage?  Answer:  she was not enjoying sex before marriage and the man did not notice or care.

I agree that in cases where sex is not of physical and emotional importance for women they may/don't  care/realize that sex deeply matters to their husbands. But this explanation does not cover other situations, including those that may lead women to a "desire shutdown" after marriage.

I never heard this mentioned on this forum before, or anywhere.

Could you please elaborate.

Personally, I have never had a FSUW claim a headache or any other such excuse.

I have had some complain that, it is noon already . . . and we haven't done anything.

I don't wonder that you never heard this -  it's a delicate topic to discuss, even with RWD members 

Well, notwithstanding the delicacy of this issue, here is a "standard" problem encountered by some couples after marriage. As a relationship progresses over time a woman realizes that she and her husband view sex differently and her being "out of duty" translates into "I do not want to accept your view nor do I want to respond to meet your purely physical need (Full stop)"
After all, from my talks to the RM whose comments I referred to up-thread, it was obvious to me that in most cases their ex-wives' "rejections" weren't "NO's"  to sex - as those men understood    In fact, those were "NO's" to the men as they were.
For obvious reasons, I had not shared my thoughts with them 

[Gator]

I don't wonder that you never heard this -  it's a delicate topic to discuss, even with RWD members 

Thank you for raising the subject and handling it in a balanced manner.

 

After all, from my talks to the RM whose comments I referred to up-thread, it was obvious to me that in most cases their ex-wives' "rejections" weren't "NO's"  to sex - as those men understood    In fact, those were "NO's" to the men as they were.

The situation can easily happen when two people marry before really knowing, understanding and respecting each other.  Bad sex is just a symptom of deeper differences.  At such time the couples who are committed to their relationship will explore and resolve productively over time their deeper differences (or split apart).   
 
IMO this has little to do with the fact that she is a RW.  A RM (or any man) with this attitude will have the same problem with other women.  People change, things change.  Deal with it.
 
 
 

[Gator]

Come on guys, even if you've been to FSU 20 or 30 times and know a 100 FSU people it's still different from growing up there and living there a good portion of one's life.

I agree that my observations are akin to the parable about a group of blind men describing an elephant.  Perhaps I have described only one part, the ear and do not comprehend the whole elephant.   What part of FSU society (the elephant) have I described?   I met the friends and family of educated, accomplished RW.  Frankly, I could care less about a different category of RW.   
 

Drinking IS a serious problem there, a lot worse than in the USA but don't take my word for it, ask any FSU people.

Probably true.  Yet America has a drug problem "a lot worse" than in the FSU.   So.....?
 
Bottom line:    It was much easier for me to get a date with a pretty, interesting, educated woman in the FSU than in America.  Do we need to debate the reasons why?  For sure alcoholism is one reason for some RW, yet not many RW are fleeing to devout Muslim countries where alcohol is essentially forbidden.   So there must be other compelling reasons about men from the West. 

[Gator]

When I was living in Russia I really did not notice many things...  I had quite a shock for a few days last visit.

Thanks for sharing an unbiased opinion.  I am sure that some parts of the Russian culture are better than what you have in America.  However, on the whole what you have in America prevails, starting with your husband.

[Gator]

The discipline during the Soviet time was more strict.  The Soviet government was involved in every aspect of the privet life. Right now the Russian healthcare government proposes to return the compulsory medical treatment for alcoholics like it was in the USSR.

During my visit to Moscow in 1986, I recall people people lining up at meat shops, cheese  shops, etc.  One of the longer queues was in front of this red brick building where my friends say vodka was sold.   That is one form of government involvement.
 
My friends commented about how many Russians made their own bootleg vodka, but buying the feedstock was also limited unless one lived in a farming village.

[ghost of moon goddess]

IMO this has little to do with the fact that she is a RW.  A RM (or any man) with this attitude will have the same problem with other women.  People change, things change.  Deal with it.

TRUE!!!!!!

It's my fault -  I should have added ***DISCLAIMER*** This post is in no way belittling RM/RW !

I' m sorry if you find my previous post somehow offensive.
Offer my apologies

[ML]

I agree that in cases where sex is not of physical and emotional importance for women they may/don't  care/realize that sex deeply matters to their husbands. But this explanation does not cover other situations, including those that may lead women to a "desire shutdown" after marriage.

I don't wonder that you never heard this -  it's a delicate topic to discuss, even with RWD members 

Well, notwithstanding the delicacy of this issue, here is a "standard" problem encountered by some couples after marriage. As a relationship progresses over time a woman realizes that she and her husband view sex differently and her being "out of duty" translates into "I do not want to accept your view nor do I want to respond to meet your purely physical need (Full stop)"
After all, from my talks to the RM whose comments I referred to up-thread, it was obvious to me that in most cases their ex-wives' "rejections" weren't "NO's"  to sex - as those men understood    In fact, those were "NO's" to the men as they were.
For obvious reasons, I had not shared my thoughts with them 

Thanks for your words of explanation.  But it sounds a little too 'deep' for me! 

Perhaps I am too simple . . . but are you just describing the situation where the woman just no longer loves or even likes the man?

[OlgaH]

 
 Thanks for sharing an unbiased opinion.  I am sure that some parts of the Russian culture are better than what you have in America.  However, on the whole what you have in America prevails, starting with your husband.
 

 Some parts yes, but overall I would say gloomy faces,  too high prices for average Russian salaries,the people I know for 20 years and who work as teachers and doctors still cannot manage their housing problems because of prices and bank percentage.

While I can see some surface polish in the streets , but it all reminds garbage - broom - carpet.

[ML]

. . . the people I know for 20 years and who work as teachers and doctors still cannot manage their housing problems because of prices and bank percentage.

While this seems to not be talked about as some other problems in the FSU;
I believe it is something that will lead to eventual disaster in the FSU.

There are huge monetary disincentives for persons to go into these professions now, which will lead to crises in education and medical care at some point in the very near future.

[OlgaH]

During my visit to Moscow in 1986, I recall people people lining up at meat shops, cheese  shops, etc.  One of the longer queues was in front of this red brick building where my friends say vodka was sold.   That is one form of government involvement.
 
My friends commented about how many Russians made their own bootleg vodka, but buying the feedstock was also limited unless one lived in a farming village.

That was time of Gorbachev prohibition campaign.  In 1986 the Soviet budget system already collapsed. The Prohibition campaign significantly shrank the budget, also activated alcohol black market. Sugar and cheap sweets also disappeared from the stores 

[OlgaH]

While this seems to not be talked about as some other problems in the FSU;
I believe it is something that will lead to eventual disaster in the FSU.

There are huge monetary disincentives for persons to go into these professions now, which will lead to crises in education and medical care at some point in the very near future.

There are more the State budget employees (military, police, teachers, doctors and so on)  and workers (service staff) than the budget can feed, plus add the all the retirees.

[Eduard]

I agree that my observations are akin to the parable about a group of blind men describing an elephant.  Perhaps I have described only one part, the ear and do not comprehend the whole elephant.   What part of FSU society (the elephant) have I described?   

I'm not touching this one!!! LOL 

I met the friends and family of educated, accomplished RW.  Frankly, I could care less about a different category of RW.   

Phil, like I said, even if you have met a 100 families from the FSU it is not enough to make any kind of judgment. You may not know them well enough and they may not be comfortable sharing their "skeletons" with you. Doesn't mean that they have none. For example: My mom had a university degree and was successful in her career. My uncle on the other hand only had 8 classes education and became an alcoholic in his youth...still drinks too much (for Western standarts) but tries to keep it under control to stay alive... You really don't know, you are only scratching the surfice and making judgements based on that.
And by the way drug addiction is just as bad a problem in Russia as it is here. I don't know the official stats but I talk to enough people to know what's going on.

[Eduard]

The bottom line seems to be this: we've come rather quickly to a point in this discussion where I guess it seems that most seem to agree that most if not ALL Russian men are drunks, according to the post I challenged. I just fundamentally disagree with that view.

I wouldn't say that most are drunks. I'd say that a large percentage drinks accessively. Just from my own life experience I'd say that about half either don't drink or keep it under control. The other half drinks too much, however I don't know what percentage of them would be considered hard core drunks. maybe about 10 to 20%? What do you think?

[OlgaH]

The other half drinks too much, however I don't know what percentage of them would be considered hard core drunks. maybe about 10 to 20%? What do you think?

Who knows Eduard... according to information below 90% of Russian population are regular drinkers and 80% of Russian regular drinkers have the first stage of alcoholism 

http://rodtr.ru/blogs/alco/820/

[Eduard]

There are more the State budget employees (military, police, teachers, doctors and so on)  and workers (service staff) than the budget can feed, plus add the all the retirees.

Welcome to America! 

[Eduard]

Who knows Eduard... according to information below 90% of Russian population are regular drinkers and 80% of Russian regular drinkers have the first stage of alcoholism 

http://rodtr.ru/blogs/alco/820/

That sounds worse than I thought, and MUCH worse than what Mendy thought!

[OlgaH]

Welcome to America! 

Ed, anyway America should try harder to reach Russia's level