Russian society acceptance of RW who date AM

[Jersey Guy]

I have a couple of questions. How are Russian Women treated by Russian society if they date American men? Is it something that a Russian woman would try to keep secret?
I am dating a RW from the Volga region. She is divorced with 2 children. We have been to Jamaica on our first date in January '12 for 8 days. She has visited me in the Philadelphia area in April/May and we are planning a trip to the Grand Canyon in October.
The reason I ask is that we usually talk once a day almost everyday. Only 3 or 4 times a month we do not talk. There have been times when she said she could not talk because she did not want to be heard speaking English if she was not home. She especially does not want to talk if she is visiting family. I can understand she may not want other people to know her personal business. But, I was always wondering if it is something most RW women try to keep secret.

[GoodOlBoy]

She especially does not want to talk if she is visiting family.

Big RED FLAG guy!!
 
After all of these trips, have you ever met her family and friends?
 
GOB

[Jersey Guy]

Big RED FLAG guy!!
 
After all of these trips, have you ever met her family and friends?
 
GOB

That is something else that I have also been thinking about. From day one when we first talked about a meeting she was willing to meet me in Moscow. Not her home city along the Volga. But we were planning to meet in January so I did not think Moscow would be a good place so we went to Jamaica where she could get an entrance visa at the airport. The she got a visitors visa for the US. It required a 15 hr train ride to Moscow. I said I would like to visit her in her home city. Her response was that she did not think it was a good idea with no reason. I'm not sure what her concern is. One time when I called she said she was driving to pick up her daughter at her ex-husbands father house. He speaks English very well. She said very quickly that he is outside and doesn't want him to hear her speaking English. I'm actually not sure what to think.

[GoodOlBoy]

I'm actually not sure what to think.

Think the worse sir.
 
I am not saying your lady is this, BUT..... My wife has a friend that she grew up with that I jokingly refer to as the "Holiday Whore". But it really isn't a joke at all. She has been almost everywhere on the face of the earth (Europe, Middle East, Asia... everywhere except for the GoodOl' USA) on any guy's dime.
 
Just something to think about.
 
GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

I also want to warn you about something else, if you are really serious about this lady (marriage).
 
If she really does have 2 kids (and I wouldn't believe it until you see them in person), she will probably NEVER get written permission from the Russian father to let them leave the country.
 
Be prepared to pay big bucks (pay off) to persuade him differently.
 
Sorry, but it is the RM mentality.
 
GOB

[Lily]

I have a couple of questions. How are Russian Women treated by Russian society if they date American men? Is it something that a Russian woman would try to keep secret?
 

My take would be that most women, especially in the big cities where there are many foreigners living, working or visiting, will not have any problems communicating their relationships with foreign men. The Iron Curtain is dead, the borders are now open, people travel, immigrate, mingle among the others. There should not be an issue about it, generally speaking.
In the mid-nineties, when foreign businesspeople only started coming into deeper Russia, some Russians appeared hostile against foreigners and disapproved any friendships of this kind. One of my colleagues at that time who flirted with a seconded German manager, shared with me that her elder colleague frowned upon her behaviour, and said her something like, 'Your father was killed by Germans on the war, how can you date a German now? ''
But again, times changed, I can not imagine anyone having this kind of thoughts nowadays.
 

[I/O]

As for RM's extracting bounty for permission for their kids to leave the country - yes and no, some are glad to let someone else carry the financial can.
 
I'm doubtful about this particular case but F&F still advise me when in Russia to be a little selective where and when I use English - it tends to alert those who might be on the take particularly if one is in the boonies. Other than that, it isn't an issue.
 

[Jersey Guy]

Thanks for the responses so far
Lily,
She is from a city that was closed to all foreigners until 1991....Saratov. She is a solid professional. She was a practicing physician and her and her ex owned a pharmacy. She is now medical representative for a major western pharmaceutical company. I think she still has some old attitudes. i finally convinced her that it is ok to send an SMS message in Russian and I can translate it on my phone. She likes to translate things to English first. Just in the middle of the day I sent her a message  "I'm having a busy day." She responded quickly in Russian, I also toil, Stakhanovets. I had to research what she meant. When we talked I said that is an old term. She said she still uses it at times.
She is 43. And I'm 57. Do you think a 43 yr old profesional may still have some reservations of making dating a AM public.

[GoodOlBoy]

She is 43?
 
Thanks for the clarification JG.
 
Sorry, I definitely jumped to some wrong conclusions on this one (I figured she was 20 something). 
 
How old are the "children", if you don't mind me asking?
 
Her behavior may just be cautious at this point in your relationship.
 
Hard to tell.
 
GOB

[Jersey Guy]

I don't mind GOB. All information is helpful. Yes I think she is just very cautious. The kids are 6 and 15. Yes, we are just starting to talk about the possibilities of the kids and the ex-husband. But, I scratch my head sometimes. When we are together everything is great. On the phone she is very cautious.

[mendeleyev]

I have always said that when a RW wants to meet away from home there is a reason. The reason is never in your favour.

The fact that she was able to travel to you in Philly means that this wasn't her first rodeo no matter what you're being told. Even with the coming changes in September, single FSU ladies coming to the USA are still an exception rather than the rule except for approved study programs and at age 40+ she isn't a student anymore.

You're already suspicious with good reason, way over due to be blunt, and were it me I'd cut losses before the Grand Canyon trip.

Saratov is an interesting place so announce that your next time together will be in her city and that you've decided to take the relationship to the next level and wish to meet her family and friends.  I'm guessing that you'll hear excuses and meet heavy resistance. Then you need to ask yourself, why?

For most ladies, the chance to bring an "international man" into her world of family and friends is an honour and it is more than odd that you've done this much together already and you couldn't really find her home street by yourself, or be on a polite first name basis with several members of her family. Unless some magical chip planted inside makes her not want to tell family/friends about you, I'm baffled.

Odds are that if she befell a serious accident while on the Grand Canyon trip, you wouldn't have the foggiest notion who to contact and what to say. That isn't a relationship--it is just a vacation.

[mendeleyev]

When we are together everything is great. On the phone she is very cautious.

Because there is someone in the background that she doesn't want to hear the conversation.

Does the 15 year old speak English?

[GoodOlBoy]

You're already suspicious with good reason, way over due to be blunt, and were it me I'd cut losses before the Grand Canyon trip.

Yeah, what's up with the Grand Canyon?
 
My wife's friends from Omsk (who just came to visit us last year) couldn't wait to see NYC and Miami (where we live), but the Grand Canyon?  .... just seems a little strange to me.
 
GOB

 
PS.... My wife and I did drive to the Grand Canyon, but it was after our marriage in Las Vegas. 

Marina said it was "beautiful" and she enjoyed it very much.

[Jersey Guy]

To Mendy and GOB at the same time.....I really appreciate your guys input
Yes we have been to NYC. She has seen the Met that she really wanted to do. I sat through a 5 hr opera, I was impressed and we seen 2 broadway shows. We went to DC and got a White House tour. She was here for 16 days. Even saw a phillies game.

Yes her son speaks excellent English from what she says. Sometimes when she is home and we talk her son corrects her English. While she was here we also visited the Princeton campus, since that is on the short list of where he would like to go to a University. So, yes when she is home she is ok with it. When she is out she is very cautious.

[newjason]

That is something else that I have also been thinking about. From day one when we first talked about a meeting she was willing to meet me in Moscow. Not her home city along the Volga. But we were planning to meet in January so I did not think Moscow would be a good place so we went to Jamaica where she could get an entrance visa at the airport. The she got a visitors visa for the US. It required a 15 hr train ride to Moscow. I said I would like to visit her in her home city. Her response was that she did not think it was a good idea with no reason. I'm not sure what her concern is. One time when I called she said she was driving to pick up her daughter at her ex-husbands father house. He speaks English very well. She said very quickly that he is outside and doesn't want him to hear her speaking English. I'm actually not sure what to think.

a few questions:

1. Does she pay her own way on these trips to Jamaica and to visit you? I mean,  does she buy her own visa, airfare, accommodation, ect.. or do you finance the entire escapade?

2. Does she have many other friends who she talks about?
example: oh , today i was out with Lyuda, we went to resturaunt ...
or
Today Tanya said something to me that made me laugh .. ect..

3. Does she ever call you out of the blue just to say hi, or just to talk?

4. Does she get upset with you if you push her for more information about specific things...
like... what were you doing ?  Where were you ?    Who is so and so?

5. How often does she travel away from her home?
 meaning, how often is she out of town vs how often she is at home?

6. Does anyone on her side know that she is dating you? Can you verify this for sure?

7. What level is the relationship now?  Just friends, travel companions, a lil something on the side,  bf-gf, committed relationship, ect..  ?

With more information , will come a more clear picture of what is going on, or at least a good possibility of what is going on..

[Olly]

When we are together everything is great. On the phone she is very cautious.

I also don't want my colleagues to know about my relationship with foreign man (just for case). But when he call me i don't drop the call but just try to go out from office. And so strange why she can't type sms in english? No one see what she type on her phon! And some people in the small towns (like Saratov or my city)  still think that meetings with foreign man it is wrong.

[TheTraveler]

do you know who is watching her kids during these trips?

[Maxx2]

People apparently haven't been taught in public schools and universities to learn from other's people's experience.

[Belvis]

How are Russian Women treated by Russian society if they date American men? Is it something that a Russian woman would try to keep secret?
... There have been times when she said she could not talk because she did not want to be heard speaking English if she was not home. She especially does not want to talk if she is visiting family. I can understand she may not want other people to know her personal business. But, I was always wondering if it is something most RW women try to keep secret.

Pretty natural behaviour for a not very young woman  involved in relationship with a foreign guy. This kind of relationship is viewed as exotic  in a provincial russian city . She may be  treated by friends or colleagues as loser, or  girl of easy virtue, or gold digger,   or whatever the  human fantasy can invent. She and her kids will be the main subject of gossips among relatives, and I doubt she would like that. I see no red flag here, just a certain mentality.

I also want to warn you about something else, if you are really serious about this lady (marriage).
... she will probably NEVER get written permission from the Russian father to let them leave the country.

I would not agree with GOB's belief that all RM are monsters. A bad russian ex-husband can take advantage in sending kids abroad to avoid alimony  . Though it does not matter  now. According to the russian law the permission from a spouse is not required if  a kid leaves the country with an another spouse.

[Shadow]

The visa to the US can be explained by her job for a Western Pharma company, probably not the first time she was abroad.
As for caution, Russia can be a hard place and there for people share knowledge on a need-to-know base. For instance in a job situation it is not uncommon that if a boss picks up the woman dating a foreigner he reacts "you will leave us anyway so I will already fire you".

But still I would make her agree that the next meeting after the Grand Canyon will be in Saratov.

[GoodOlBoy]

Though it does not matter  now. According to the russian law the permission from a spouse is not required if  a kid leaves the country with an another spouse.

If this is true, I would like to know when your country changed it's laws?
 
GOB

PS.... There is a man in my building that forked out $5000. to a RM for his signature on some documents so the FSUW could bring their little girl here (Marina and I saw the documents).

[newjason]

I think we do not have enough information to form a fair opinion for Jersey Guy yet. 
I would like to know more specifics before responding. 
GOB changed his tune when he found she is 47. 
So, let Jersey give some more details if he chooses.

[Fashionista]

Look guys... It really doesn't mean much... yet... People talk, OK? If people aren't used to foreigners, they talk even more, that affects you, your job, your family, your friends, your parents, everybody you know.
 
Think you dating a pretty marxist girl from Russia in a small right-wing town in the seventies. Feels comfortable?

[Belvis]

If this is true, I would like to know when your country changed it's laws?
 
GOB

PS.... There is a man in my building that forked out $5000. to a RM for his signature on some documents so the FSUW could bring their little girl here (Marina and I saw the documents).

The law has not been changed, last amendment happened in 2003. The application of law has been changed in 2007, when border guard service had issued the interpretation of that law. The permission from an ex-husband will be requested only if he has ventured to submit the special application about his refusal to let kids leave Russia. Though I did not hear about such farsighted malicious ех. BTW, one more reason to keep OP in a secret.
  I don't know, may be the ex permission will be required to obtain  USA visa. That could be a problem.

[Anotherkiwi]

If this is true, I would like to know when your country changed it's laws?
 
GOB

PS.... There is a man in my building that forked out $5000. to a RM for his signature on some documents so the FSUW could bring their little girl here (Marina and I saw the documents).

I'm sure there was a thread here a while ago that discussed exactly this situation.  IIRC it was noted that Russia doesn't require the father's permission, but Ukraine does (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong).  Thanks Belvis for your post, which came up just as I hit the "post" button.
 
Also, wasn't a poster threatened with the same sort of thing ("pay me x thousand UAH or I won't sign") and told the father that the Court would surely be happy to hear about his lack of child support payments...scam halted immediately and the documents were signed!
 
I know of several members here who have "imported" children as part of a package deal with their mothers (meant in the best sense of the words, people!) - did anyone have a problem with documents or ex-husbands?
 
Getting back to the main point of the thread: although I can see Olly's point, it still seems strange that a lady would keep you totally apart from friends and family after two trips together. First time together in her city - maybe.  Third extended vacation?  Surely at least a Yellow Flag.  You need to talk to her about this.  Remember that RW are very direct!     You must be the same - and, as suggested above, do it before she heads across the Atlantic again.