Russian society acceptance of RW who date AM

[Daveman]

She is annoyed because this AM won't understand it! You all consider it "odd", for her it is not. Period.
 
Faux Pas, what question?
(BTW, if RW doesn't answer the question, it means she doesn' want to).

LoL.. odd or not, I'd stay in a relationship where a woman was annoyed on a regular basis -- at my asking questions about her day -- for roughly ten seconds.. and that's a stretch.. but then again, I have a very low tolerance for 'not odd' behavior. 

But that's just me... I'm sure our hero can make up his own mind as to the amount of not oddness he's willing to deal with.   
 

[Faux Pas]

She is annoyed because this AM won't understand it! You all consider it "odd", for her it is not. Period.
 

It is odd from most any man's POV with the possible exception of the naive. Her avoidance does speak volumes specifically after she's enjoyed  two paid vacations. Her need to keep their relationship under raps will very likely be the catalyst that ends it.  I don't really expect you to understand that   

Faux Pas, what question?
(BTW, if RW doesn't answer the question, it means she doesn' want to).

I knew that already but, in your case it was worth pointing it out 

[Doll]

It is clear by default, Faux Pas. You ask a personal question, it is not answered, that's all.

[Faux Pas]

It is clear by default, Faux Pas. You ask a personal question, it is not answered, that's all.

Doll, you stated that you were in this woman's shoes. Then you state that it is not odd that she keeps JG shut out and in the dark about her life. You might not see that as odd or nefarious but, the mentality of men for all intensive purposes will. You state that it is so but, you give nothing in reason or "why", for logic and reason, that ain't enough. You list your personal experience as reason but don't expand. Your only credibility as a source is a RW, not your experience FWIW

[Doll]

One more time, Faux, JG asked "русских женщин", RW answered what the reasons could be. I did write about the reasons.

[Faux Pas]

One more time, Faux, JG asked "русских женщин", RW answered what the reasons could be. I did write about the reasons.

Then GOOD!  Your job is done! Did you mention she couldbe a spy for Vlad Putin too?

[Jumper]

She is annoyed because this AM won't understand it! You all consider it "odd", for her it is not. Period.
 
Faux Pas, what question?
(BTW, if RW doesn't answer the question, it means she doesn' want to).

 
Actually, as i posted prior, i don't find her  not wanting to speak english on the phone with other people around odd,and understand the many *possible* reasons.
 I  said i feel its likely a fear of her ex knowing or finding ouit shes seeing a foriwegn man.( my opinion is  he is likely stil heavily involved in her life /financially/kids )
but its just speculation by everyone.
 
What i said that i found odd ,
was the lack of her initiating contact. and  to me, it is odd.
 
If you factor in that she doesnt feel comfortable when he calls when other people are around (and make the reasions *why* thats normal for her)
Then its even more odd that she doesnt initiate the contact, as then she could control when is the best time to talk.
Think about it.
 
My wife would send me sms, asking me tio call, or she'd call me ,and i'd call her back.
 
Her initiating the contact would make even more sense if shes worried about the *timing*
of the conversation being when its more conmfortable for her?
 
Sure everything could be fine? he has time to find out.
me i'd find that part peculiar in his shoes.
 one contact initiated by her, after how many trips?
 
Whatever ..
 
 

[Globetrotter]

Actually, who the hell cares what others think?  If you and your squeeze are OK with your relationship, then go for it.  However, if your mindset is to please others and to always be accepted by them....then just stay home!
One exception may be if you are really old for your partner and look like father and daughter, and absolutely nobody accepts you and she, knowing she was a GCG all along, and everyone is laughing at you...that is another matter.  Some here fit the description, and the hour glass (2 years and one day) is running. 
If you don't fit the above........screw them all!!!

[ML]

Actually, who the hell cares what others think?  If you and your squeeze are OK with your relationship, then go for it.  However, if your mindset is to please others and to always be accepted by them....then just stay home!
One exception may be if you are really old for your partner and look like father and daughter, and absolutely nobody accepts you and she, knowing she was a GCG all along, and everyone is laughing at you...that is another matter.  Some here fit the description, and the hour glass (2 years and one day) is running. 
If you don't fit the above........screw them all!!!

Why doesn't the 'who cares what others think' and 'screw them all' apply to those situations of father-daughter looks or even grandfather-granddaughter looks?

I am just trying to ask a general question, so try not to make it a personal indictment of anyone.

Also, just curious . . . have there been any '2 years and one day' situations sans 'inappropriate' age gaps?

[OlgaH]

Olga,

Thank you for your response!  The Varangians (according to the page you linked) were what Americans call "Vikings" I think.

The book Scarlet Sails is much longer than that link you posted;  the movie from 1961 can be seen here:

http://video.kylekeeton.com/2008/11/russian-video-scarlet-sailsmovie.html

I am sure that Alexander Grin (shortened from Grinevsky) was Russian :-)

You are welcome.

The link I posted has 7 translated chapters as the Russia original has
http://scarletsails.gollandia.com/index.htm

Alexander Grinevsky was Russian of Polish origin. His wife Nina Grin spent 10 years in the Stalin's GULAGs

One of my favorites movies is "Mr. Decorator" based on the story by Alexander Grin "Grey Car".  If you can find in English I recommend.

[Globetrotter]

For ML.........
 
Your first sentence I can't understand.  What are you trying to say?  Who ever said "screw them all"? 
 
There are several thousand members here...so, ask how many 20 year plus marriages have ended in just over 2 years.  Better yet....become one yourself and then let us all know how you do!  I was pointing at nobody in general, but just making a statement of what I think to be common sense...as many "agencies" will point out exactly the same!
 
So...your point was? 
 
 
 
 

[Globetrotter]

ML
 
Screw them all meant.....who cares what anyone thinks if you are happy, and never try to please anyone but yourself...........but at the same time, be realistic.

[Doll]

Jumper, the reasons she doesn't initiate calls might be
1) too expensive (like I said, $3.00 or more per minute)
2) she is shy
3) she thinks that men should initiate everything (or most of things)
4) she can only do it from home which means kids are always around
 
None of the above is a deal breaker.
 
JG, if you want to find   a black cat in the dark room where there is NO cat- you'll find it.

[GoodOlBoy]

Some here fit the description, and the hour glass (2 years and one day) is running. 

Forget about the GC hourglass.
 
The real hourglass (judgement day) is running out for some of these characters.
 
JMHO, but I don't think there will be any trumpets blowing for them. 
 
GOB

[ghost of moon goddess]

OK, your story sounds plausible.

But was Soviet culture really anti-sexual.
...

Thank you for so charitably accepting my story   

Soviet culture was really anti-sexual as long as it had been focused on the cult of the "Public Place" and "Labor", and this lasted until the 60s, IMO. Not that the old cultural, artistic or ideological traditions of "sex-free" Soviet culture were broken in the 60s - still remaining alive, they were just liberated. I recall my Grandmother - God rest her soul - telling me that the late 60s were the years of cultural passion, the period charged with emotions and conflicts of identities: National versus Personal. She said that was the time of the first artistic experimentations in Soviet cinema - experimentations that allowed viewers to see sexual relations... hmm... going beyond exchanging purely chaste kisses. 

...
Another great movie where the husband takes the blame for his wife killing a person with her car.  He goes without escort to serve time in prison.  Woman at train station regularly has sex for 10 minutes or less with boyfriend when train stops, etc., etc.
..

The title of this great movie is "Railroad station for two"

[GQBlues]

Russian society acceptance of RW who date AM

It isn't so much the 'dating' part but rather the venue used that's stigmatized. It's one thing if the meeting happened in-country (Russia or USA - or just the proverbial local 'supermarket') and quite another if through a marriage agency. Especially these days when the visa restriction had softened up and the marriage industry is dying a slow death.

My wife and I thinks it's funny how most if not all of the FSUW/AM couples where we are, when asked, all met in other ways and places BUT marriage agencies. FSU folks who immigrated here by ways other than the MOB 'look' down upon those who did by way of the MOB. That's just how it is.

As for the saga of Jersey Guy's personal situation, a R/T ticket and trip to her town and country would alleviate all your worries - only IF, shes really worth it to you.

[OlgaH]

But was Soviet culture really anti-sexual.

ML, I would reccomend "The Sexual Revolution In Russia: From the Age of the Czars to Today" by Professor Igor S. Kon translated by James Riordan. Interesting read.

[Jersey Guy]

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I have not been checking the thread with enough time to respond to some individual comments. There was a variation in views which I appreciated. I was glad to get the RW woman perspective but some of the AM comments were some of my initial reactions also. Since I only have 10 months of experience in communicating with a RW I was looking for some experienced perspectives. That is why I joined this site. It is helping.
It is not that I have a real concern. But when I see what I would consider not "normal" behavior in my view I just wonder. As far as her initiating contact, there is not a real reason for her to. She knows I will call her the same time every day. There were times when I called she asked if I could call back in an hour or at times even just 15 minutes later. There were only 2 or 3 times when she said she could not talk because she felt uncomfortable speaking English.  After numerous times of her being busy or can not talk I think I finally convinced her that if she is busy just send me an sms and I will not call. That was about a month ago. I think it may be working, she is batting about 500. (for the AM, the number of times she couldn't talk and no sms) Her biggest problem with sms is that she wants to communicate in English. I know she is a very busy lady. She has a more difficult time with sms in English because its more instantaneous and she cannot do it easily. I finally convinced her that she  just send it in Russian I can translate it on my phone. When she was  on vacation with the kids I got about a one or two screen sms from her about every 3 days (in Russian). Which was good.
As I said at the start of the topic I was curious if it is how Russian society viewed a RW dating an AM.
As far as everything else I think that we are just going through a process. I think that a RW woman is about 10 times more patient than an AM. WE will see.

[Doll]

Ah, I forgot one more possible reason- English.
 
Faux, as far as your question goes, I kept my AM out of my personal life till I had visa.
To take kids out of the country is not easy.
All the rest of the visits were different (my visits back to Russia)- I was married, so questions asked))))
 
Yet, if I need to speak English- I walk away from people there to be polite.
I almost never call to the USA just because it is expensive. I do email though.
 

[Faux Pas]

Ah, I forgot one more possible reason- English.
 
Faux, as far as your question goes, I kept my AM out of my personal life till I had visa.
To take kids out of the country is not easy.
All the rest of the visits were different (my visits back to Russia)- I was married, so questions asked))))
 
Yet, if I need to speak English- I walk away from people there to be polite.
I almost never call to the USA just because it is expensive. I do email though.

Doll, you know I enjoy poking you with a stick when possible. 

Thank you for your answer. Not that I knew what your answer was (or that you would answer) but, it is good information for JG. It is a valid reason on one hand, on the other IMHO, not so much. Leaving suspicion and doubt in the mind of your possible future husband is a big negative if you wish to build a life with him. Obviously, your story worked out fine but, many I would venture a guess do not. Rightfully so.

[Jumper]

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I have not been checking the thread with enough time to respond to some individual comments. There was a variation in views which I appreciated. I was glad to get the RW woman perspective but some of the AM comments were some of my initial reactions also. Since I only have 10 months of experience in communicating with a RW I was looking for some experienced perspectives. That is why I joined this site. It is helping.
It is not that I have a real concern. But when I see what I would consider not "normal" behavior in my view I just wonder. As far as her initiating contact, there is not a real reason for her to. She knows I will call her the same time every day. There were times when I called she asked if I could call back in an hour or at times even just 15 minutes later. There were only 2 or 3 times when she said she could not talk because she felt uncomfortable speaking English.  After numerous times of her being busy or can not talk I think I finally convinced her that if she is busy just send me an sms and I will not call. That was about a month ago. I think it may be working, she is batting about 500. (for the AM, the number of times she couldn't talk and no sms) Her biggest problem with sms is that she wants to communicate in English. I know she is a very busy lady. She has a more difficult time with sms in English because its more instantaneous and she cannot do it easily. I finally convinced her that she  just send it in Russian I can translate it on my phone. When she was  on vacation with the kids I got about a one or two screen sms from her about every 3 days (in Russian). Which was good.
As I said at the start of the topic I was curious if it is how Russian society viewed a RW dating an AM.
As far as everything else I think that we are just going through a process. I think that a RW woman is about 10 times more patient than an AM. WE will see.

With more detail it  sounds more normal than not.

While my wife initiated a lot of contact,there were also times when she dint need to as i always called at a pretty normal time for her everyday , 
granted if i dint,  call then i got a call or sms in ten minute! lol
She also avoiding speaking english if on the mashrutka or other closly populated public area,but would always answer and explain why.(after i understood why we dint go into detail i'd just cal back in 15 minutes when i knew she'd be at her destination instead)

Every scenario is different of course, and in my case i did meet a lot of her friends the same day i met her! 

[Steamer]

As I said at the start of the topic I was curious if it is how Russian society viewed a RW dating an AM.
As far as everything else I think that we are just going through a process. I think that a RW woman is about 10 times more patient than an AM. WE will see.

People in Russia are extra careful not to blab their biz to others. This is what happens in a police state. In the US it doesn't matter, in Russia it can get you fired from your job or other unpleasant things. Think about your lady in these matters. Keep your mouth shut when in earshot of others. When you speak English in public, everyone listens. If her co-workers hear her speaking to a foreigner, they know whats going on. If it doesn't work out between you two her life can become miserable. This ain't Kansas and you must consider the life of the other person even if it doesn't work out.

[mies]

Think the worse sir.
 
I am not saying your lady is this, BUT..... My wife has a friend that she grew up with that I jokingly refer to as the "Holiday Whore". But it really isn't a joke at all. She has been almost everywhere on the face of the earth (Europe, Middle East, Asia... everywhere except for the GoodOl' USA) on any guy's dime.
 
Just something to think about.
 
GOB

Respectfully disagree.

The woman has 2 children. She and her ex have joint custody. To bring children to USA she'll need to get the sole custody or to get her husband's permission. Only she knows what her husband is like. Many RMs  (probably AMs too) manipulate woman's life even after they are divorced. The easiest way to do it - via children. If the ex-husband will learn about woman's plans to get married to an AM, he will get aggravated/jealous and will do everything to keep her from it. He will forbid her to take children with her. Since he knows the woman won't travel without children. We do not know who her husband is. Maybe he is a nobody, or maybe he has some local power. In these circumstances even slightest gossip or suspicion may destroy woman's hopes for happiness.

Plus, it's possible she will get fired from her job when her boss will learn that she is dating an American and planning on leaving anyway. That's why she can't introduce the OP to her friends, family, and colleagues. Then, if things won't work out between the OP and this woman - she will be without a man, and without a job.

During the first year of dating with my husband - none of my relatives or friends knew about him. During the second year, when we were already living together - I introduced him to my sister and parents just because it is hard to hide that you are living with somebody. My friends met him in approximately 3 years after we started dating.

[mies]

The law has not been changed, last amendment happened in 2003. The application of law has been changed in 2007, when border guard service had issued the interpretation of that law. The permission from an ex-husband will be requested only if he has ventured to submit the special application about his refusal to let kids leave Russia. Though I did not hear about such farsighted malicious ех. BTW, one more reason to keep OP in a secret.
  I don't know, may be the ex permission will be required to obtain  USA visa. That could be a problem.

exactly  my point.

[Konfushus]

To Jersey Guy,

I'm married and living most of the time in provincial Russia. On the one hand, I can understand your girlfriend's caution.

As an American here, I'm usually seen as a 'rich foreigner', attracting jealousy, gossip and intrusion to myself, my wife and her family. She's been cautious about talking about me to co-workers and acquaintances. I don't speak loudly in public places as we try not to attract attention.

On the other hand... my wife was never shy about introducing me to her family and close friends, and neither has any woman I've dated here. However, you're dating a woman with a child, older than any woman I've dated and you're not living here as I am. She has more reasons to be careful and keep things quiet for now.