Sad day

[Misha]

The problem is, that usually people learn from mistakes, when they see their strategy doesn't work, they start looking for better strategy. If there is a couple, where one spouse is immature, and another one is mature and understanding - there are no stimuli for the immature person to change their strategy. On the contrary, they learn that they always get what they want from their partner (and get the level of personal comfort they are seeking) if they act "immaturely" -yell, push, choke, etc.  And they will continue doing it more and more, because they have learned that this strategy is successful, and gives them what they need.

I agree. Also, it seems to me that there is a great deal of conflict where there should be little or none. He is working, they do not have any children, culture shock should be over... If it is this stressful now, I can only imagine what it would be like if they had major problems to deal with or once they have children and where sacrifices must be made.

[Ade]

I agree. Also, it seems to me that there is a great deal of conflict where there should be little or none. He is working, they do not have any children, culture shock should be over... If it is this stressful now, I can only imagine what it would be like if they had major problems to deal with or once they have children and where sacrifices must be made.

If they had kids they'd be too tired to argue. 

[Boethius]

Aloe, you know my position, in general.  I think your emotions are getting in the way here.  I know this is how you feel, but how much of this is the dragons you have created in your own mind?  You carry them around, and, perhaps, create major issues where there are none.  You see your side, not his, as do all the individuals interacting with you, because you're the one posting.   I also wonder how many of these individuals married in a cross cultural relationship at a very young age, with limited finances.  Because it is very clear to me your ages are a factor in how each of you is responding to the conflict of living together, as is the fact you each came from your parents' homes, with no independent time before you married, and have the added stress of limited finances.  I empathize with you more than most, because I see, in your descriptions of you, a lot of similarities to what I was like when I was young (the insecurity, the emotion), but, I did cook and clean a lot, even enjoyed it.
 
I suspect, in some ways, you and your husband approach life differently.  That is not necessarily a death knell to a marriage, if you can negotiate those differences.  For example, from your descriptions, he worries about money, you do not.  If that's the case, then having one joint account for major purchases you make together, and separate accounts for discretionary spending, to the point you have it, is a very good idea.  It ameliorates one source of stress between you.  If you want to go out and he wants to stay in, you compromise by going out once a week, and you stay in and give him your attention another day of the week.  And so it goes.
 
I think you should ignore all advice to leave, or to stay.  It is all being given with only one side of the story.  Both of you should seek marriage counselling, together, so that you can each give your side of the story, and have an independent professional assess what the true sources of conflict are, and whether they can be overcome.
 
Also, I disagree with others about love.  To have a man look at you the way you describe your husband does after as many years together as you are is pretty extraordinary.  It is not something to be dismissed, given everything else.
 
At the end of the day, once you have had counselling, if you still do not believe you can live with him, then at least you will know you did everything to make it work.  But, getting to that point, let me be clear, will be work for both of you, and both of you have to do the work, or one of you will be unhappy, or you will, eventually, divorce.
 
Shut out the "noise" for a while, seek professional help together, and see where it goes.

[Hammer2722]

Aloe, you know my position, in general.  I think your emotions are getting in the way here.  I know this is how you feel, but how much of this is the dragons you have created in your own mind?  You carry them around, and, perhaps, create major issues where there are none.  You see your side, not his, as do all the individuals interacting with you, because you're the one posting.   I also wonder how many of these individuals married in a cross cultural relationship at a very young age, with limited finances.  Because it is very clear to me your ages are a factor in how each of you is responding to the conflict of living together, as is the fact you each came from your parents' homes, with no independent time before you married, and have the added stress of limited finances.  I empathize with you more than most, because I see, in your descriptions of you, a lot of similarities to what I was like when I was young (the insecurity, the emotion), but, I did cook and clean a lot, even enjoyed it.
 
I suspect, in some ways, you and your husband approach life differently.  That is not necessarily a death knell to a marriage, if you can negotiate those differences.  For example, from your descriptions, he worries about money, you do not.  If that's the case, then having one joint account for major purchases you make together, and separate accounts for discretionary spending, to the point you have it, is a very good idea.  It ameliorates one source of stress between you.  If you want to go out and he wants to stay in, you compromise by going out once a week, and you stay in and give him your attention another day of the week.  And so it goes.
 
I think you should ignore all advice to leave, or to stay.  It is all being given with only one side of the story.  Both of you should seek marriage counselling, together, so that you can each give your side of the story, and have an independent professional assess what the true sources of conflict are, and whether they can be overcome.
 
Also, I disagree with others about love.  To have a man look at you the way you describe your husband does after as many years together as you are is pretty extraordinary.  It is not something to be dismissed, given everything else.
 
At the end of the day, once you have had counselling, if you still do not believe you can live with him, then at least you will know you did everything to make it work.  But, getting to that point, let me be clear, will be work for both of you, and both of you have to do the work, or one of you will be unhappy, or you will, eventually, divorce.
 
Shut out the "noise" for a while, seek professional help together, and see where it goes.

+100!!!!! 

[calmissile]

Bo,
Believe it or not, we are in total agreement.

[BillyB]

Aloe, you know my position, in general.  I think your emotions are getting in the way here.  I know this is how you feel, but how much of this is the dragons you have created in your own mind?  You carry them around, and, perhaps, create major issues where there are none. 

We should not feed those dragons and further spook Aloe out about her husband. Hopefully Aloe's counselor will be able to get both sides of the story and resolve any issues.

[Fashionista]

Is there an objective reason why Aloe has to endure all this? Immigration papers perhaps?
Sneaking out in the middle of the night out of fear isn't anywhere close to normal in my books...

[Larry1]

Is there an objective reason why Aloe has to endure all this? Immigration papers perhaps?

She already has Belgian citizenship

Sneaking out in the middle of the night out of fear isn't anywhere close to normal in my books... 

Not in my books either.

[mies]

Not in my books either.

and not in my books.


a brief list of things that do not seem "normal" in this relationship to me, and I do not think there is any way of "double reading" these signals. I also do not think Aloe is "going crazy about nothing" nor do I think that she is "imagining the threat where there is none."

1) her husband shows her disrespect through derogatory verbal comments. Aloe never said she uses same language towards her husband.
2) her husband applies threats of physical force to her.
3) her husband treats her as a servant/not equal and makes threats of the like "either you vacuum now, or I divorce you."
4) her husband requests her to get sun tan because he doesn't like fair-skinned girls. (Why didn't he marry a tan girl while he wanted one is another question). He tells her, with some frequency, that her looks are not to his liking  and she needs to change according to his taste.   
I know men who request their wives/gf's to get breast/lip augmentation, or some other plastic surgeries. In my books any requests of this sort are invasion into the body of the partner, and are completely unacceptable. Tanning isn't even healthy, why would anyone request/demand a spouse to get sun tan?
5) husband made (in the past) environment at home unbearable for Aloe by listening loud music he knew she hates. He could listen to the music in the car on the way from work - enough time to relax. He could listen to the music in the headphones. But he did it in the way that was causing Aloe great discomfort.
6) He took from her money (several thousand Euros, a large amount for any country) that were given to her by her parents as a birthday present, not to Aloe and her husband as a couple.
7) he pushed her
8 ) he choked her.

Maybe he does many good things to her, and their relationship is 99% good. Maybe this is love in his eyes. Or maybe (and i am joking here) he can't see perfectly well because he spends too much time looking into computer screen and playing computer games. That's why he has this long attentive/"loving" stare.

[GQBlues]

Man, I guess if nothing else, this ought to get Aloe confused at best, or carry around a huge complex at the least.

Really folks?

[Ade]

Man, I guess if nothing else, this ought to get Aloe confused at best, or carry around a huge complex at the least.

Really folks?

And so goes the "consensus" of Internet forums.

FWIW, I think Aloe is bright enough to figure out what's right herself in the long run though visiting a counselor to get some perspective wouldn't hurt at all.

[Aloe]

I agree. Also, it seems to me that there is a great deal of conflict where there should be little or none. He is working, they do not have any children, culture shock should be over... If it is this stressful now, I can only imagine what it would be like if they had major problems to deal with or once they have children and where sacrifices must be made.

That's a good point, what will happen when real problems strike?

[BillyB]

what will happen when real problems strike?

Aloe, you already have real problems. The question is will they get better or worse? Even if your husband gets better, if you continue to mature faster than your husband throughout your marriage, you will always feel as if there are problems. What you need to pay attention to is if your husband is growing in the right direction or not. One of the best ways for him to grow in the right direction is for you to grow in the right direction too. Give you marriage counselor a chance and get your hubby in on the counseling too.

[Aloe]

and not in my books.


a brief list of things that do not seem "normal" in this relationship to me, and I do not think there is any way of "double reading" these signals. I also do not think Aloe is "going crazy about nothing" nor do I think that she is "imagining the threat where there is none."

1) her husband shows her disrespect through derogatory verbal comments. Aloe never said she uses same language towards her husband.
2) her husband applies threats of physical force to her.
3) her husband treats her as a servant/not equal and makes threats of the like "either you vacuum now, or I divorce you."
4) her husband requests her to get sun tan because he doesn't like fair-skinned girls. (Why didn't he marry a tan girl while he wanted one is another question). He tells her, with some frequency, that her looks are not to his liking  and she needs to change according to his taste.   
I know men who request their wives/gf's to get breast/lip augmentation, or some other plastic surgeries. In my books any requests of this sort are invasion into the body of the partner, and are completely unacceptable. Tanning isn't even healthy, why would anyone request/demand a spouse to get sun tan?
5) husband made (in the past) environment at home unbearable for Aloe by listening loud music he knew she hates. He could listen to the music in the car on the way from work - enough time to relax. He could listen to the music in the headphones. But he did it in the way that was causing Aloe great discomfort.
6) He took from her money (several thousand Euros, a large amount for any country) that were given to her by her parents as a birthday present, not to Aloe and her husband as a couple.
7) he pushed her
8 ) he choked her.

Maybe he does many good things to her, and their relationship is 99% good. Maybe this is love in his eyes. Or maybe (and i am joking here) he can't see perfectly well because he spends too much time looking into computer screen and playing computer games. That's why he has this long attentive/"loving" stare.

3) He doesn't do it anymore. His last mentioning the word divorce was in september 2010, i think. He hasn't done it since, so he does learn something i guess? Now he cleans up himself more, and if he says the floor is dirty, i tell him "if you vacuum, i'll wash the floor", and we do that sometimes.

5) He stopped listening to that music. I had a sudden realization why screaming music eventually made me burst in tears and walk out of the room. I don't tolerate screaming well   And when you constantly hear screaming music, it's like someone is constantly screaming. That's why that happened.

So he stopped doing 3) and 5). The status of 4) and 6) is unclear:

4) I'm not sure about it, cuz we haven't been to a sunny place since sept 2010. But a sunny place trip is scheduled for this summer, so we'll see if he starts pouting and whining about tanning again. But this time if i see him pout on vacation, i'm not gonna be like 'what's wrong?' I'll just ignore it and enjoy myself instead     (lesson learned)

6) yea, i'm not sure what's up with this one. He made me transfer the money from my account, saying 'you'll get over it'. I think it's because he finds it incredibly unfair should i have money on my account, while he only has a joint account to keep money in. We decided to have a new money system. Everyone have a personal account, and deposit a set sum to the joint account. Do all spending, no matter what it is from the joint account, and if anything is left on it, split it in half and put it on personal accounts.

The problems are 1, 2, 7, 8.

So number 1) is definitely a problem. I never call him any names or swear out loud. He, however, has already called me an f-in c-nt, an f-in bitch, a horrible person. The bitch is recurring, the other two were a single occasion, altho the first one is the recent one, so who knows if it will happen again. I have a problem with him calling me names. He says he can't promise he won't call me names again.
2, 7, 8, are obvious, but now i have warned him to not ever do it again, or i'll leave. Dunno if he will listen.

I did go to a psychologist. She can also be a relationship therapist, i'm told. But she said first we talk alone for a few sessions, before inviting hubby. I have very high hopes for this therapy!!!! Hopefully i can figure my life out, or at least some of the things.

[Aloe]

Aloe, you know my position, in general.  I think your emotions are getting in the way here.  I know this is how you feel, but how much of this is the dragons you have created in your own mind?  You carry them around, and, perhaps, create major issues where there are none.  You see your side, not his, as do all the individuals interacting with you, because you're the one posting.   I also wonder how many of these individuals married in a cross cultural relationship at a very young age, with limited finances.  Because it is very clear to me your ages are a factor in how each of you is responding to the conflict of living together, as is the fact you each came from your parents' homes, with no independent time before you married, and have the added stress of limited finances.  I empathize with you more than most, because I see, in your descriptions of you, a lot of similarities to what I was like when I was young (the insecurity, the emotion), but, I did cook and clean a lot, even enjoyed it.
 
I suspect, in some ways, you and your husband approach life differently.  That is not necessarily a death knell to a marriage, if you can negotiate those differences.  For example, from your descriptions, he worries about money, you do not.  If that's the case, then having one joint account for major purchases you make together, and separate accounts for discretionary spending, to the point you have it, is a very good idea.  It ameliorates one source of stress between you.  If you want to go out and he wants to stay in, you compromise by going out once a week, and you stay in and give him your attention another day of the week.  And so it goes.
 
I think you should ignore all advice to leave, or to stay.  It is all being given with only one side of the story.  Both of you should seek marriage counselling, together, so that you can each give your side of the story, and have an independent professional assess what the true sources of conflict are, and whether they can be overcome.
 
Also, I disagree with others about love.  To have a man look at you the way you describe your husband does after as many years together as you are is pretty extraordinary.  It is not something to be dismissed, given everything else.
 
At the end of the day, once you have had counselling, if you still do not believe you can live with him, then at least you will know you did everything to make it work.  But, getting to that point, let me be clear, will be work for both of you, and both of you have to do the work, or one of you will be unhappy, or you will, eventually, divorce.
 
Shut out the "noise" for a while, seek professional help together, and see where it goes.

I dunno if i created any troubles in my mind, but i don't like being pushed and stuff, it's a big shock. Maybe i am making it more than it is, i dunno.
Yes he perceives money a very important thing. I don't see why he has to have 2k euro at all times as a safety net.. Money is not a problem in my head for 2 reasons
1) This is a totally useless and unfounded worry in Belgium, because the social security system here is incredibly good. If you get fired, you receive full salary from the government unemployment for like 6 months. After 6 months the sum gradually decreases. At this moment you only need to have worked 1.5 years in your life to receive unemployment money for the rest of your life. And if you can't afford to live, they will give you money too. And medicine is nearly free, u pay like 120 euro a year to cover all possible medical treatment you'll ever need, including hospitalization. Of course you pay tons for social security through taxes, but if you become unemployed, nobody takes away these benefits from you. You keep paying same 120 euro, and everyone else from taxes should anything happen to you. Moreover, if you are getting fired, the employer will have to give you at least a 3 month warning, and 2 half days off every week (meant for interviews at other companies)
2) His mom and my parents won't let us starve or leave rent unpaid. He doesn't have any problems with taking money from them, we do it all the time.
So i see no reason whatsoever, not even a little tiniest bit to worry about money as he does. But we already decided to organize a new money system anyway

[Vaughn]

Smart choice, Aloe.
 
 1, 2, 7 and 8 definitely need to be addressed, professionally.

[Muzh]

Aloe, you already have real problems. The question is will they get better or worse? Even if your husband gets better, if you continue to mature faster than your husband throughout your marriage, you will always feel as if there are problems. What you need to pay attention to is if your husband is growing in the right direction or not. One of the best ways for him to grow in the right direction is for you to grow in the right direction too. Give you marriage counselor a chance and get your hubby in on the counseling too.

Aloe, this is great advice.

If your hubby decides to grow at a glacial speed and be an immature jerk for years to come, you should do absolutely the same. After all, you are just a girl so you don't count.

These way you both will be a couple of losers. At least together.

You KNOW what I mean.

[Misha]

I dunno if i created any troubles in my mind, but i don't like being pushed and stuff, it's a big shock. Maybe i am making it more than it is, i dunno.

No, you are not making too much out of it. You have a right not to be pushed "and stuff" and you should not tolerate it no matter what you are told.

[Boethius]

I dunno if i created any troubles in my mind, but i don't like being pushed and stuff, it's a big shock. Maybe i am making it more than it is, i dunno.

You mean physically pushed?  No, you should never tolerate any abuse, physical or emotional.  You need to tell him this is not negotiable, and any form of abuse will mean you are gone, no second chances. 

Yes he perceives money a very important thing. I don't see why he has to have 2k euro at all times as a safety net.. Money is not a problem in my head for 2 reasons
1) This is a totally useless and unfounded worry in Belgium, because the social security system here is incredibly good. If you get fired, you receive full salary from the government unemployment for like 6 months. After 6 months the sum gradually decreases. At this moment you only need to have worked 1.5 years in your life to receive unemployment money for the rest of your life. And if you can't afford to live, they will give you money too. And medicine is nearly free, u pay like 120 euro a year to cover all possible medical treatment you'll ever need, including hospitalization. Of course you pay tons for social security through taxes, but if you become unemployed, nobody takes away these benefits from you. You keep paying same 120 euro, and everyone else from taxes should anything happen to you. Moreover, if you are getting fired, the employer will have to give you at least a 3 month warning, and 2 half days off every week (meant for interviews at other companies)
2) His mom and my parents won't let us starve or leave rent unpaid. He doesn't have any problems with taking money from them, we do it all the time.
So i see no reason whatsoever, not even a little tiniest bit to worry about money as he does. But we already decided to organize a new money system anyway

Whether his fears in this respect are rational or not is irrelevant.  It is a different mentality.  He has a different approach than you, and you need to respect that and negotiate something you can both live with. 

Unemployment insurance and welfare are generous in Canada, as well.  I have parents who would help me, too.  But I would never spend my savings because those safety nets exist.  Further, they can be taken away at anytime, as Greeks have learned.  It is always better to rely on, and take care of yourself financially.

[Boethius]

3) He doesn't do it anymore. His last mentioning the word divorce was in september 2010, i think. He hasn't done it since, so he does learn something i guess? Now he cleans up himself more, and if he says the floor is dirty, i tell him "if you vacuum, i'll wash the floor", and we do that sometimes.

5) He stopped listening to that music. I had a sudden realization why screaming music eventually made me burst in tears and walk out of the room. I don't tolerate screaming well   And when you constantly hear screaming music, it's like someone is constantly screaming. That's why that happened.

So he stopped doing 3) and 5). The status of 4) and 6) is unclear:

4) I'm not sure about it, cuz we haven't been to a sunny place since sept 2010. But a sunny place trip is scheduled for this summer, so we'll see if he starts pouting and whining about tanning again. But this time if i see him pout on vacation, i'm not gonna be like 'what's wrong?' I'll just ignore it and enjoy myself instead     (lesson learned)

6) yea, i'm not sure what's up with this one. He made me transfer the money from my account, saying 'you'll get over it'. I think it's because he finds it incredibly unfair should i have money on my account, while he only has a joint account to keep money in. We decided to have a new money system. Everyone have a personal account, and deposit a set sum to the joint account. Do all spending, no matter what it is from the joint account, and if anything is left on it, split it in half and put it on personal accounts.

The problems are 1, 2, 7, 8.

So number 1) is definitely a problem. I never call him any names or swear out loud. He, however, has already called me an f-in c-nt, an f-in bitch, a horrible person. The bitch is recurring, the other two were a single occasion, altho the first one is the recent one, so who knows if it will happen again. I have a problem with him calling me names. He says he can't promise he won't call me names again.
2, 7, 8, are obvious, but now i have warned him to not ever do it again, or i'll leave. Dunno if he will listen.

I did go to a psychologist. She can also be a relationship therapist, i'm told. But she said first we talk alone for a few sessions, before inviting hubby. I have very high hopes for this therapy!!!! Hopefully i can figure my life out, or at least some of the things.

You need to tell him, in counselling, that verbal abuse is as damaging as physical abuse, and you will not tolerate either.
 
A marriage should be a rock, the foundation and refuge you each come to after a day in the world, somewhere you feel safe and loved, where you are not judged, and where you can rely on your spouse for the love and support you don't get in the big wide world.  Every negative word is like a wave splashing over the rock, eroding it over time.  You ignoring his requests to clean, or dismissing his worries about money are waves.  Him nagging you about cleaning is a wave.  His abuse, whatever manner it takes, is a storm over the rock.  However, I note you have said he has not been physical with you since that one time.  Is he continually verbally abusive?  Is it only when you argue?  How often do you argue? 
 

[ML]

One small situational comment.

A distant male relative of mine was in a heated argument with his wife of 6 months or so, as often happens early in marriages.

His story: She was standing very close to a sofa, had a broom in her hands, and raised up the broom to hit him.

He put up his hands to protect his head.

The combined force of his hands pushing out and the broom going forward, caused her to be leaned backward, the back of her legs touched the sofa, and she fell onto the sofa.

Her story:  He shoved me down on the sofa.  I couldn't believe he actually knocked me down.

And she occasionally repeats her version of the story . . . even after their 50th wedding anniversary.

This irritates the he!! out of the man who denies it; and others usually take them to separate rooms for awhile.

Only the two of them know (or once knew) the actual truth.

[GQBlues]

I've always made sure that any escalation in an argument that goes beyond discussion is both stupid and unnecessary. I usually just excuse myself everytime that happened with me and someone before - including my wife. She learned that early on with me. If any woman is prone to any type of violence...I usually wouldn't be caught dead having any type of a relationship with her...
 
Having said this, I'll say it again, any type of abuse, regardless of gender, whether it be physical, emotional, mental, etc...shouldn't reside in any productive, healthy, progressive relationship/marriage. It doesn't matter the provocation, excuse, or cause...
 
Beyond all this - and this is a rhetorical question to our OP, how much of the your quoted statement below is adding to your marriage woes?
 

...I looked abroad because i wanted adventure, and because....

If I try to visualize your marriage, and solely based on what you tell us here on the board, from the distance I can almost *see* a lot of the smoke from this distant fire on that simple statement. You don't need to answer this here, I just ask that you ask and honestly answer the question to yourself.

[ML]

If any woman is prone to any type of violence...I usually wouldn't be caught dead having any type of a relationship with her...

This is a good reason to avoid potential partners who display a degree of volatility in their behavior . . . even if it is only mood or verbal volatility . . . in the beginning.

[mies]

You ignoring his requests to clean, or dismissing his worries about money are waves.  Him nagging you about cleaning is a wave.  His abuse, whatever manner it takes, is a storm over the rock.

I don't think those could be compared.
Lets imagine a couple. Wife works & earns more, or maybe wife works & the husband is "back at school" working on his advanced degree because they as a family decided he will be able to earn more later with such degree. His studies don't cost much/anything to the family but he isn't bringing in money. They agreed that because Husvand has more time he'll be doing more housework, & wife will help whenever she can.
And now the situation:
Wife returns home from work, and tells her husband "you haven't vacuumed in 4 days, what's wrong with you? Clean, now, or we are through." Husband gets upset and tells her he thinks the apartment is reasonably clean, & wife hasn't been helping with the cleaning at all. Wife yells at him "you are a f-cling moron. F-cking d-ck! I earn money here & you r worthless." Husband throws away the cup of water he was going to offer to wife. Wife rushes towards him and chockes him, then shows & pushes him.

Now, comment from Boethius: both are at fault. Husband is guilty because he didn't comply with wife's request to clean. Wife is at fault because she called her husband moron, d-ck, & choked him.

Now, guys & gals, in all honesty, if the guy from such relationship came for advice, would at least one person on this forum tell the guy it's his fault & he should work on his marriage & his wife is a good woman & loves him. Be honest, please.

[Boethius]

It is a wave, though, mies.  It demonstrates a lack of respect toward him, and what is important to him.  That's the point.  The proportionality is a separate issue.