Sad day

[Misha]

This is a good reason to avoid potential partners who display a degree of volatility in their behavior . . . even if it is only mood or verbal volatility . . . in the beginning.

As always, it depends. I, personally, prefer an occasional outburst than weeks or months of passive-aggressive behaviour   

[mies]

It is a wave, though, mies.  It demonstrates a lack of respect toward him, and what is important to him.  That's the point.  The proportionality is a separate issue.

I think it's a lack of respect to order your spouse, of any gender, to do housework, or to do anything period. He's got a pair of hands, if it's so critical & urgent, he can do it himself. It's not a master-slave relationship, it's not his birth right to receive this benefits/services, nor Aloe's gender duty to provide this services. He already shows her disrespect by his demands. If he lived alone he'd do all work himself, Aloe is already helping him, doing some portion of it. He is already "better off". If he needed a cleaning lady- he should have hired one instead of marrying woman & trying to convert her to his cleaning/cooking/sex personnel.

[Boethius]

So, if a spouse is out all day working, and one is at home cruising the net all day, it is a lack of respect if the working spouse asks why didn't you pick up the house?  Did you cook dinner?  Because this is when the issue arose.  Is it not a lack of respect to your spouse to expect him to go out and earn a living for you, while you play all day?  Now that Aloe is studying, it appears they split this work. 
 
The "order", I suspect, was out of frustration, though I did address his lack of respect toward Aloe at the time the issue was posted originally.  My point is not to justify the behaviour but, rather, to point to how not considering each others' feelings, and what each wants, erodes the marital bond.

[YoungBuck]

It is men like Aloe's husband who give this MOB/International Marriage thing a bad name. This whole thread, from beginning to end, is disturbing to read. The only person who I can agree with is Mies. Hoping that he matures, or grows out of a violent personality is not an acceptable option in my book. I would just leave since there are no children involved.

What is wrong with women, seriously? There is a whole world full of decent men clamoring for their love and attention and they always seem to end up with the abusers, douchebags and cheaters.

[mies]

So, if a spouse is out all day working, and one is at home cruising the net all day, it is a lack of respect if the working spouse asks why didn't you pick up the house?  Did you cook dinner?  Because this is when the issue arose.  Is it not a lack of respect to your spouse to expect him to go out and earn a living for you, while you play all day?  Now that Aloe is studying, it appears they split this work. 
 
The "order", I suspect, was out of frustration.  My point is not to justify the behaviour but, rather, to point to how not considering each others' feelings, and what each wants, erodes the marital bond.

In the wording "why didn't you?" - yes. It's the lack of respect, it's the question in the form of accusation. Accusation which implies that this is her responsibility to keep her husband happy, and he, in his superior position, was not satisfied by her performance and now demands explanations and there will be some repercussions. Where is respect in this situation? This is an attempt to make (subordinate) spouse comply. Generally, it's not that different from abusive wives who nag their husbands that husbands don't earn enough. How do men usually react when they hear accusation "why aren't you like all normal men and cannot earn decent amount for your family? Why we have to live on meager income? I married you with the hope that you would be successful and you haven't achieved anything in your life." I would be curious to see how the man like Aloe's husband would react if his wife accused him of not earning enough, in response to his accusations for not cleaning enough. He would probably explode from indignation. Why? Because he thinks too much of himself and too little of Aloe. And he would not be in situation like this, because he picked Aloe, who is ready to admit that she has faults, and who worships him and thinks that she won't find anyone better. He didn't pick the woman who would nag him and complain that she wants this and that and he cannot even provide enough for living, and instead of working more and better, and stop asking for money from both parents, he wastes time with his online games which (activity) do not bring any income to the family. Where is his strive for improving financial security of his family?

To ask "can you clean the house some time this week, I don't have time to do it now. But I'll happily help you next week" - this is the normal wording.
If Aloe wanted to work as a cleaning service, she'd get a job as a cleaning lady. I don't think this was her intention. She works on her assimilation into Belgian culture so that she can start earning money, she is super smart, why treating her as a servant who disobeyed and didn't do his duty? Isn't it lack of respect?

Let us stick to my example of non-working and studying husband. I know several couples who were in that position: husband continued education while the wife worked and was a bread winner. In one of these families wife had a baby, and worked, and husband was working on his PhD. Their house was reasonably clean, husband participated in the household chores but was not demanded to cook nor even was expected to clean regularly because he was working on his research - reading papers, thinking... you know, this sort of hard and tiring work. Time consuming nevertheless. I cannot imagine a situation for this couple, who were my friends at that point, when the wife would call her husband a d-ck/moron/idiot etc because he didn't cook dinner, or because he doesn't clean the house up to her personal standards.

I agree that Aloe's husband is frustrated. But I think the sequence of his reactions is the opposite. Not the order because of frustration. But the frustration comes from the fact that the "servant" doesn't do what she has to do. And this is fundamentally wrong way to view your wife. She isn't a servant. Whether she at the moment works or not, doesn't justify lack of respect you show to her. No matter whether spouse works or not they should be treated with respect as an equal human being. This mutual respect should be within both partners, this is what truly keeps couples solid as a rock.

[GQBlues]

...
What is wrong with women, seriously? There is a whole world full of decent men clamoring for their love and attention and they always seem to end up with the abusers, douchebags and cheaters.

LOL. Is this an unintended confession?

[Boethius]

We don't know if he used the words "why didn't you".   I merely used it as a form of shorthand.  All we know is, he was unhappy coming home to a messy home.  And yes, this is a lack of respect toward your spouse. 
 
I have been in the position of breadwinner, including with a baby of less than 2 months old.  I have also been in the position of home with 3 children under 4 while my husband worked.  I can't imagine coming home to a disorderly home, nor could my husband. 

Aloe did not come to Belgium to be a cleaning lady, certainly.  I have also posted in the past that her husband needs to respect her, too, and I still believe that.  Nevertheless, she is not living alone, and being in a marriage entails responsibility and compromise by both parties. 

[mies]

We don't know if he used the words "why didn't you".   I merely used it as a form of shorthand.  All we know is, he was unhappy coming home to a messy home.  And yes, this is a lack of respect for your spouse. 
 
I have been in the position of breadwinner, including with a baby of less than 2 months old.  I have also been in the position of home with 3 children under 4 while my husband worked.  I can't imagine coming home to a disorderly home, nor could my husband. 
Aloe did not come to Belgium to be a cleaning lady, certainly.  But, she is not living alone, and being in a marriage entails responsibility and compromise by both parties.

I understand. What I am trying to say is that wording matters. And in no circumstances the cursing at the spouse are justified. If you are frustrated with the unclean carpet - shut down the computer with the game, and go vacuum. It's not like he is working 80 hours a week. If he were - he would not even notice that the carpet wasn't clean enough. He would come home at 11 and collapse in bed, and leave home before 6. But this isn't how his schedule looks like, is it?

As for clean home - there is a vast range between a dumpster and a super clean home. I don't think Aloe's home is on any of these extremes. Everything in between is negotiable, and depends on personal preferences and time available. I do not know how dirty Aloe's home is. Maybe it's cleaner than the home of any average Belgian, but her husband is still not quite happy because he wants it to be so clean that floor can be used as a dinner plate.

Then, there is a touchy topic of who contributes the mess. I lived for 6 years in a dorm with shared rooms and kitchens. The general room in the dorm (and I believe it is similar in shared homes in USA) is that you clean all the mess after yourself, and with reasonable frequency all inhabitants take turns in doing mass-cleaning (wash floor, fridge, etc). There is a certain difference when the husband demands his wife to keep her stuff neat, vs. when he demands to keep all house super clean and he is a major contributor of the mess. The he essentially demands the wife to clean after him. Taking to the extreme, husband could be so messy that wife can spend all day cleaning, and still the house won't be clean enough, and husband would still find reasons to be frustrated and complain. Reasonable solution in this circumstance would be to train the husband to become a neat person, or that husband should also participate in cleaning, no matter how much time he spends at work. I am not saying any of this applies to Aloe's family, and they aren't living in the dorm, I am just offering an example of how details may be crucial in deciding who's right and who's wrong.

[Boethius]

It is not necessarily true that he would collapse into bed.  Yesterday, I worked a 12 hour day.  I was lucky, our daughter was home with a cold, so my better half made a pot of chicken soup, and I didn't have to cook dinner.  I ran errands, came home, called my husband to pick up some milk on his way home from work, loaded and unloaded the dishwasher, cleaned the stovetop (my dearest is not so diligent with that ), and then, though tired, at 10:30, looked at the floors and noticed the area rugs needed vacuuming.  Yes, I could've gone to bed, but it would be waiting for me the next day.  So, I vacuumed and then sprayed the hardwood.  Gleaming floors are important to me.
 
I think it would be a mistake, early in a marriage, for the breadwinner to take all the household duties on in addition to full time work, while the other party is at home all day.  But, we perhaps have different views of what constitutes a marriage.
 

[mies]

But, we perhaps have different views of what constitutes a marriage.

Possibly. I do not factor in "household work" into marital duties.
I like clean home too, and I take care of the home, so does my husband. I (we) view our home as our living environment, and each of us take care of it, and make sure that it is nice and pleasant to be in.

For me it takes 1-1.5 hour to do quality vacuuming of area rugs - I vacuum everything to make sure dust doesn't spread back to area rugs from other parts of the home. And another 30-40 minutes to spray area floors. Load-unload dishwasher is a much faster task. If I were doing it every day, it would take at least 2-2.5 hours out of my day, if I were to wash the hardwood floors - more time. I would not feel happy if anyone demanded me to do it.

[Boethius]

Division of labour is a marital responsibility.  Particularly when you have children. 

I (we) view our home as our living environment, and each of us take care of
it, and make sure that it is nice and pleasant to be in.

So why do you assume it should be different for someone else?  Unless you can afford a live in maid, or rely on cleaning fairies, the work has to be done.

[mies]

Division of labour is a marital responsibility.  Particularly when you have children. 
So why do you assume it should be different for someone else?  Unless you can afford a live in maid, or rely on cleaning fairies, the work has to be done.

exactly. The difference is whether both spouses think that the work has to be done, or one spouse thinks that the work has to be done by another spouse. That's all.

[Boethius]

My understanding is Aloe and her husband are dividing the household chores now.  So, that indicates compromise.

[calmissile]

Bo,

I like the idea of a cleaning fairy.  Where can I find one?         

[Aloe]

It wasn't one time that he pushed me. I don't know exactly, if i looked in my old posts, i could tell you how many times, but i remember at least 3 times. One time he grabbed me by the collar and shook. And in august it was the worst of all the times, took me a very long time of daily thinking about it to get over it.

[Aloe]

You need to tell him, in counselling, that verbal abuse is as damaging as physical abuse, and you will not tolerate either.
 
A marriage should be a rock, the foundation and refuge you each come to after a day in the world, somewhere you feel safe and loved, where you are not judged, and where you can rely on your spouse for the love and support you don't get in the big wide world.  Every negative word is like a wave splashing over the rock, eroding it over time.  You ignoring his requests to clean, or dismissing his worries about money are waves.  Him nagging you about cleaning is a wave.  His abuse, whatever manner it takes, is a storm over the rock.  However, I note you have said he has not been physical with you since that one time.  Is he continually verbally abusive?  Is it only when you argue?  How often do you argue?

I'm not sure how often we argue. Every single time we argued, i have posted. So i'm assuming once in 7-9 months? Not sure. It could be cuz most of the time im laid-back and accommodating.. When i say lets do something, he doesnt wanna do it and so he doesnt do it.. But when he's like let's watch tv, and i dont feel like it, he plunges in the seat and acts all cute and i come over anyway.
And yes, i think he has called me names every time we argued for the last 4 arguments. I've never called him anything. And when he calls me names or shouts angry i just look at him, i almost never do anything in return. Mostly go cry in the bedroom.

[Aloe]

If I try to visualize your marriage, and solely based on what you tell us here on the board, from the distance I can almost *see* a lot of the smoke from this distant fire on that simple statement. You don't need to answer this here, I just ask that you ask and honestly answer the question to yourself.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, could you elaborate plz

[Aloe]

It is men like Aloe's husband who give this MOB/International Marriage thing a bad name. This whole thread, from beginning to end, is disturbing to read. The only person who I can agree with is Mies. Hoping that he matures, or grows out of a violent personality is not an acceptable option in my book. I would just leave since there are no children involved.

What is wrong with women, seriously? There is a whole world full of decent men clamoring for their love and attention and they always seem to end up with the abusers, douchebags and cheaters.

When we don't argue, he's the nicest guy you could find anywhere. Too nice to others to my liking. Almost pussy-like nice, cuz he has never ever ever shown his displeasure with others, like when someone stole our money at a hotel, or neighbors being crappy neighbors, he's always super nice, like almost servile nice.
And by the way i looked for 3 years for this decent guy before meeting hubby, so all the decent guys in the world had had 3 years of chances

[calmissile]

It wasn't one time that he pushed me. I don't know exactly, if i looked in my old posts, i could tell you how many times, but i remember at least 3 times. One time he grabbed me by the collar and shook. And in august it was the worst of all the times, took me a very long time of daily thinking about it to get over it.

Aloe,
Seeking sympathy (for years) on an international forum is not the solution for you to find happiness in your life.

You are now seeing a psychologist and that is the best solution.  There is a good reason that she/he wants to see the two of you seperately.  It is necessary for her/him to treat emotional problems that each of you have, prior to advancing to marital counseling.

The best that could probably be achieved by marriage counseling without the individual treatment, would be the ablility to tolerate each other.  I know that your goals is to have a happy marriage with your current husband.  The path you are on is the most likely route to that goal.  You both have a lot invested, make the most of it.

I truly hope you and hubby can resolve the issues and start a fresh new life in your current marriage.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Aloe,
Seeking sympathy (for years) on an international forum is not the solution for you to find happiness in your life.

Don't be an idiot all your life.  She isn't seeking sympathy but trying to figure this out and doesn't have anyone there to talk with.

[YoungBuck]

When we don't argue, he's the nicest guy you could find anywhere. Too nice to others to my liking. Almost pussy-like nice, cuz he has never ever ever shown his displeasure with others, like when someone stole our money at a hotel, or neighbors being crappy neighbors, he's always super nice, like almost servile nice.
And by the way i looked for 3 years for this decent guy before meeting hubby, so all the decent guys in the world had had 3 years of chances

That's because I still had a girlfriend then 

Well, pushovers tend to lash out at inappropriate times, especially to those they deem weak. Just make sure he learns to express his anger appropriately; it sounds like you like him and want to stay with him, so perhaps advice on leaving him falls on deaf ears.  Good luck with everything.

[SANDRO43]

For me it takes 1-1.5 hour to do quality vacuuming of area rugs - I vacuum everything to make sure dust doesn't spread back to area rugs from other parts of the home.

Simple solution to the rug-vacuuming problem: just dump them ! Since my divorce in 1976, I have lived on my own in my small, rugless apartment with help twice weekly for 2 hours (mostly for washing and ironing the laundry): 4 hours/week seem sufficient to maintain a reasonable level of home cleanliness .

I wouldn't invite guests to have dinner on my floors, though - I'm not Japanese .

[Chicagoguy]

I am sorry mies but I have read that 70% of that dust we see - like what we see with sun coming in through the window - is our own skin shedding. Ugh.

[mies]

I am sorry mies but I have read that 70% of that dust we see - like what we see with sun coming in through the window - is our own skin shedding. Ugh.

I am afraid that our two long-haired cats are the main culprits in shedding, although I'm also long-haired and shed some too. 

Why are you upset with your husband keeping 2k saved up at all times? I think that is a wise decision. What will you do with that 2k now? That 2k may save one of your family members life someday if they get ill.

I actually agree with this part. Saving is always a good idea. Safety net is also always a good idea. 2K is nothing for immediate spending, but it may be a life-saver in a tough situation.
 
As for leaving one husband with the plan to find a better husband - I do not think this is too common. I do not believe in leaving one person to be  with another. We come to this world alone, and leave it alone. We do live among people and with people, but we need to stay true to ourselves. This is really important. Hence, I do believe in leaving a partner if this is what it takes to preserve own integrity, leave if this is the way to stay true to yourself. I am not saying that this is what Aloe should do, just sharing my view on the topic. 

[ML]

Yes, in USA most all professional money managers and budget helpers recommend having something like 6 months of expense money in a safety account.

However, as Aloe outlines, Belgium has a system that the state, in effect, has that safety account for you.

This points out the substantial difference between USA and the countries that are further along in the socialistic - communistic scale.

Personal responsibility vs letting others solve your problems for you.

But, to be sure, the demographic trends in USA are moving us away from the personal responsibility idea.