Boston marathon bombers are Chechens?

[Misha]

He will get his fair and legal trial whether he's tried as a combatant or criminal.

No, because the only reason why anybody would clamour for him to be declared an enemy combattant and whisked away to some secret jail would be to do an end-run around your constitution and the Magna Carta. In other words, to bring us back to the year 1214... Justice is messy, it takes time, but rights must be protected both to the letter of the law and more importantly following the spirit of the law...

[TomT]

The injustice to the victims are he's not going to get labeled for what he really is, a terrorist.

Is there any limit to your stupidity?

(The surviving victims have much more pressing problems than fretting about labels.)

[Misha]

You see the word "except" in there? The law of the land was allowed to pursue the suspects.

Yes, the police are free to pursue suspects, but suspects still had rights including the right to a fair trial by a jury of their peers. That is what you seemingly want to take away...

[Muzh]

I'll be taken to task from any side for either not agreeing or for agreeing with this article.

I haven't yet formed a concrete opinion but if you're secure enough to consider views other than your own, read it.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-22/guest-post-boston-marathon-attacks-chechnya-and-oil-hidden-us-connection

Careful Jim, you are starting to sound like a liberal. 

[Belvis]

Instead of discussing a possible government conspiracy or the virtual impossibility that the brothers were not the bombers, I suggest that we talk about a government policy. 

Russian bloggers discuss  a possible US government conspiracy with a little another outlook. Some of them consider extensive manhunt in Boston as government rehearsal for future crackdown on social unrests. Ingredients for this idea:  1) unprecedented sort of curfew imposed on a large city; 2) the population  is intimidated to  comply behind locked doors; 3) armored vehicles patrol the streets;  4) the reason of all of that is just a wounded single suspect.

[Muzh]

Faux Pas, I don't think Ade, myself or anyone that does not support conspiracy theories has " contempt, hatred and envy of all things American". This is just how Europeans think and see things. I work a lot with people from all over the world and most europeans match my impression of America and Americans almost to a "T" : the good, the bad, the peculiar, and some things that are outright weird 

True intel factiod.

FOX News is the most watched American media in ALL of Europe.

That might explain something.
 
Edit: I hate redundancy, and worse when I do it.

[BillyB]

The real difference of ideas is two opposing views...

Those who want a democratic and free Society...

And

Those who are attracted to the idea of Authoritarianism and absolute power of the state...

Extremes of black and white? You can't have freedom without government who create and enforce the law. When you drive down the road and you get a ticket for speeding or running a red light by one of those hidden cameras, do you get mad at the government for spying on you or do you get mad at yourself for risking public safety and possibly ending the freedoms of others? Government has a responsibility to protect the public so the public can enjoy their freedoms yet they still get labeled as the bad guys when they go after bad guys. Go figure?

you seemingly want to take away...

You're careful about not making assumptions when it comes to terrorists but you make assumptions with what I said. Where in this thread I said the government should break the law when trying to catch and prosecute those guys?

Some of them consider extensive manhunt in Boston as government rehearsal for future crackdown on social unrests.

For this rehearsal to take place, a couple of hundred people would have to volunteer their lives and limbs to justify this kind of manhunt and lock down of a city or....... since it was all for a government rehearsal and beneficial training for police officers, the government planned the bombings? What's next? Invasion of America by the American government?

[Faux Pas]

Russian bloggers discuss  a possible US government conspiracy with a little another outlook. Some of them consider extensive manhunt in Boston as government rehearsal for future crackdown on social unrests. Ingredients for this idea:  1) unprecedented sort of curfew imposed on a large city; 2) the population  is intimidated to  comply behind locked doors; 3) armored vehicles patrol the streets;  4) the reason of all of that is just a wounded single suspect.

And that might not be as far from the truth.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/23/boston-bombing-changes-lawmakers-views-on-drone-killings-of-americans-on-us-soil

I'm not screaming conspiracy. I am just stating many things considered "proof" do not add up. That is what investigations and subsequent court proceedings are about. Of course if the WH administration would have had there initial way, that wouldn't have mattered much.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Its all a matter of perspective, right? My impressions of Americans generally tend to coincide with those that Europeans have (disclaimer: well educated and well-read Europeans), and they are constantly reaffirmed by what happens in the US and the reactions of Americans. I find this quite amuzing actually 
 
P.S.: I do love the US and its people, at least in the region where I live. If I hated the people and the country I would have left. Don't mistake observations about peculiarities of a nation's character for hatred

I think skepticism can be healthy depending on how far you take it.  We all know our government has done some shady stuff in the past so it isn't far fetched to believe they haven't learned from their mistakes.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Extremes of black and white? You can't have freedom without government who create and enforce the law. When you drive down the road and you get a ticket for speeding or running a red light by one of those hidden cameras, do you get mad at the government for spying on you or do you get mad at yourself for risking public safety and possibly ending the freedoms of others? Government has a responsibility to protect the public so the public can enjoy their freedoms yet they still get labeled as the bad guys when they go after bad guys. Go figure?

Government should be working for the people.  Instead we have a government dictating what we should do, when we should do it. 

We don't have freedoms.  Anytime we leave the house we can be sent to jail depending if a police officer has a bad day.  There are so many laws in place it is almost impossible not to break one every time we step outside. 


Most of those laws are hardly needed in keeping us safe.

[Muzh]

Government should be working for the people.  Instead we have a government dictating what we should do, when we should do it. 

We don't have freedoms. Anytime we leave the house we can be sent to jail depending if a police officer has a bad day.  There are so many laws in place it is almost impossible not to break one every time we step outside. 


Most of those laws are hardly needed in keeping us safe.

This was discussed ad nauseum by the same people who were booed, insulted, and accused of treason.

Oh well.

[LiveFromUkraine]

There you go; http://www.buffaloarms.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Black%20Powder
And FWIW, black power is not traceable. Each grain does not have a serial number ya know, and unless you guys are even more paranoid than I think, I'd be surprised if you keep track of all your pressure cookers either. lol

It is crazy what they can do nowadays.  They traced the nails back to the manufacturer and then to the stores that were shipped that production run.  Apparently there was a defect in the production run that allowed them to trace it easier.

[LiveFromUkraine]

This was discussed ad nauseum by the same people who were booed, insulted, and accused of treason.

Oh well.

I guess it makes people feel safer thinking they have freedom and those that try to say otherwise are bad.


You forgot OMG! in your post.  heh

[Misha]

You're careful about not making assumptions when it comes to terrorists but you make assumptions with what I said. Where in this thread I said the government should break the law when trying to catch and prosecute those guys?

Okay, then tell me precisely what you believe. Do you believe that an accused terrorist is innocent until proven guilty, that they have the same Miranda rights as any other suspect and that they also have the same right to be tried by judge and jury as any other accused suspect? Or, do you believe that suspected or accused terrorists should be whisked away as "enemy combattants"?

[Daveman]

No, because the only reason why anybody would clamour for him to be declared an enemy combattant and whisked away to some secret jail would be to do an end-run around your constitution and the Magna Carta. In other words, to bring us back to the year 1214... Justice is messy, it takes time, but rights must be protected both to the letter of the law and more importantly following the spirit of the law...

There's the nutshell.

[Shadow]

What I alsways find interesting in such discussions is that people completely mix the concepts of justice and satisfaction.

Satisfaction is about that if the suspect is guilty by enough circumstantial evidence., he should be given the most gruesome penalty possible in order to even the score.

Justice is an entirely different concept, where first the responsibility must be confirmed in absolute terms. Then, taking in account things as mental health, influence of surroundings, risk of repetition and satisfaction of the victims and masses, a penalty is determined.

Justice does not always bring satisfaction, and satisfaction very seldom brings justice.

In cases like this I am not unhappy it took place in the USA. Not because I wish anyone there any harm, or like to see the people there suffer.
The reason is that justice in the USA has a far higher level of satisfaction as it would have in Europe, especially a country like Holland.

I am exagerating here, but this would be Dutch justice:
- the person has lost his elder brother in this action
- the person is under influence of his elder brother and their religion
- the person has already been convicted by the media attention
Sentenced to 15 years in jail and psychological evaluation, if declared no longer a risk can go free in 10 years.

[Ade]

Actually yeah, Ade does. Not that it matters to anyone but, he likes to think it does. The jury is still out on you 

There seems to be a prevalent behavior of Americans that, to date, is a refusal to be led around like sheep. Although that does seem to be reversing at a rapid rate. Quite the opposite behavior of Europeans who seemingly not only enjoy being led around like sheep, they insist on it. History tends to support this account, too. 

Your impressions of Americans or Europeans are just that, yours. That doesn't necessarily equate to correct, does it?

You think it's a refusal to be led around like sheep, I see it as perpetual fear. You don't need terrorists, you all do a good enough job of terrorizing yourselves.

[newjason]

This thread illustrates why terrorism is so effective.
It only takes one or two people to start it.
The rest is all in the minds of the citizens.
Paranoia, Fear, Anger, Hate , Guilt, Pride, Vengeance, Justice, Malice, Apathy, Ignorance, empathy, Intolerance, the list is long of the emotions stirred by events like this.
These ingredients become more and more pressurized and eventually, the pressure becomes too much for the vessel to handle and ....

[Faux Pas]

You think it's a refusal to be led around like sheep, I see it as perpetual fear. You don't need terrorists, you all do a good enough job of terrorizing yourselves.

You are free to view it anyway you like. It's no skin off my ass. I view it differently, governments are a self-serving entity, solely to perpetuate itself, worthy of fear. It's needs docile sheep like yourself convinced that you need it for comfort and safety. It is a mirage.

[Ade]

You are free to view it anyway you like. It's no skin off my ass. I view it differently, governments are a self-serving entity, solely to perpetuate itself, worthy of fear. It's needs docile sheep like yourself convinced that you need it for comfort and safety. It is a mirage.

Well, I can't say I'm frightened of mine. I'm also smart enough to know that countries don't manage themselves and without a government to govern, there would be anarchy and suffering the like of which you can't seem to imagine. So you can keep your fear, and I'll keep my "docility" - I'm betting I know which of us is happier. 

[Muzh]

OMG
 
Heh, heh, heh
 
(In response to Live from Ukraine, it's Saturday Night!)

[Faux Pas]

Well, I can't say I'm frightened of mine. I'm also smart enough to know that countries don't manage themselves and without a government to govern, there would be anarchy and suffering the like of which you can't seem to imagine. So you can keep your fear, and I'll keep my "docility" - I'm betting I know which of us is happier. 

Me too. 

[pitbull]

I view it differently, governments are a self-serving entity, solely to perpetuate itself, worthy of fear. It's needs docile sheep like yourself convinced that you need it for comfort and safety. It is a mirage.

Yeah, and this is the fundamental difference of a large part of the US population that I referred to as a "peculiar trait". The "peculiar" part is that in many this fear turns into wacky (to a European eye) paranoya where the "feds' plot" is seen behind every negative event - hence the crazy conspiracy theories about this last terror attack. Well, of course those crazy militia groups have the finest specimen possessing the aforemnetioned "peculiar" trait 

[Daveman]

And yet another one supporting these terrorists?
 
WTF?
 
 
Edited to add:
 
OMG OMG what planet are you on?????  There is VIDEO EVIDENCE of this man and his brother dropping off the bombs and detonating them and not reacting.  EVIDENCE!!!  And you are supporting this terrorist?
I am telling you and every man and woman on this and every thread that supports or defends these terrorists that we are officially now and forever enemies even more than my wonderful experience in the last few weeks with my ex-wife.
If you support these fucking moron dickhead terrorists then I say the hell with you and all you live and breath for.
A fair trial?  Fuck you!!!!  That is your demand?  What the fuck?  All trials in USA are fair why would you demand that for a fucking terrorist???  What the fuck????

Have you gone off the deep end?

[Faux Pas]

Yeah, and this is the fundamental difference of a large part of the US population that I referred to as a "peculiar trait". The "peculiar" part is that in many this fear turns into wacky (to a European eye) paranoya where the "feds' plot" is seen behind every negative event - hence the crazy conspiracy theories about this last terror attack. Well, of course those crazy militia groups have the finest specimen possessing the aforemnetioned "peculiar" trait 

Pit, the "European" eye is of no consequence to the large part of the U.S. population that you refer to. Americans in general couldn't give one wit what the Europeans think of them. Perhaps in your small circle of acquaintances you see it more prevalent, important and that's fine but, it's not. Crazy conspiracy theories come from every corner of the globe and Europe is not immune.

Europe has a deep history in Imperialism, the U.S. does not. This likely shape the different set of beliefs concerning the will, use, trust or lack of government. The founding fathers and architects of the U.S. Constitution knew this. Any republic or democracy government is to be feared and subject corruption from within. Europeans cannot relate to America at this level and vice-versa. You want to "trust" your government, knock yourself out. How well has that worked out for Europe over the past millennium?

Europe is not to be held up as a shining beacon of government nor it's citizens as even more remotely intelligent