Divorce finally final after 3 years and 3 different lawyers for her.

[GregfromGa]

The problem is the lack of compromise.  On both sides.  The language debate in their household was a symptom of their bigger issues as a couple, as was his wife needing her mother around.  Hopefully, they will both learn from their mistakes and experience marital success with other partners.

Nice Boethius but I honestly honestly don't know what I could've done differently. I think I was more than fair about her mom spending half of our marriage in our house. I was fair about wanting to be able to know what was being said to my kids when I was in the house.  To say that I'm happier now around my kids is an understatement.

[Boethius]

Are you generally happier?  I mean in life?

You misunderstood me re your MIL. It is not about your reaction to her, but rather, that your wife wanted her around for lengthy periods.  That was a symptom, or an indication that she was unhappy. 

Were I to hazard a guess, I think that her young age when you married her was a factor in her unhappiness.  Moving to your turf, in a small town, was also a factor.  Not finishing her education was probably yet another factor.  I would hazard a guess her mother rubbed that in to her, as well. 

IIRC, your MIL is a village teacher.  In general, they tend to think they are better than everyone else, and don't mingle with those they deem "beneath" them.  Not the easiest MIL's, usually.

[mies]

 if I marry a French woman and she asked me this?  cool.
 By the fact that I'm marrying a French woman and moving to France,  means that I am assuming to immerse myself in that culture.
these types of marriages aren't new here in southern California.  why mies, and everyone else so against a common language?  why doesn't anyone view this as rude and disrespectful?

my grandparents don't know English,  only Spanish,  and when our extended family gets together we all revert to Spanish,  even though not all of us were raised in Mexico or predominantly Spanish speaking households.

Because I would think of rude and disrespectful if someone forbade me to speak MY language to MY child, whom I bore (hypothetically speaking) for 9 month in MY belly. Connection between mother and child is very important for proper development of a child, especially in early years. Even when a person spent 8 years in a foreign country, their language likely isn't as fluent as their native language. So by forbidding mother to speak her native tongue to her children, this person (Greg in a given case) prevents proper communication between the mother and children. Such demands aren't good for children, aren't good for mother, aren't good for family. Why would anyone want to do it? 
That's all. I'm not against a common language, I am saying that imho demands "no Russian while I am at home" are unreasonable and discriminative to say the least.

[GQBlues]

....Were I to hazard a guess, I think that her young age when you married her was a factor in her unhappiness.  Moving to your turf, in a small town, was also a factor.  Not finishing her education was probably yet another factor.  I would hazard a guess her mother rubbed that in to her, as well. 

IIRC, your MIL is a village teacher.  In general, they tend to think they are better than everyone else, and don't mingle with those they deem "beneath" them.  Not the easiest MIL's, usually.

Hole smokes! That's my life story!

Mumski is a teacher and I live in a small town too plus I'm beneath her - literally. Mumski is 6' 1". Taller than popski and me. Even taller than my wife.

 

[Boethius]

LOL.  I can't say if that was the case in Uzbekistan, but it certainly is in Central/Eastern Ukraine.  Also in that part of Ukraine, many escapees (people who leave villages) who are slightly more educated resent everything and everyone from the village once they move to the city.

[YoungBuck]

Because I would think of rude and disrespectful if someone forbade me to speak MY language to MY child, whom I bore (hypothetically speaking) for 9 month in MY belly. Connection between mother and child is very important for proper development of a child, especially in early years. Even when a person spent 8 years in a foreign country, their language likely isn't as fluent as their native language. So by forbidding mother to speak her native tongue to her children, this person (Greg in a given case) prevents proper communication between the mother and children. Such demands aren't good for children, aren't good for mother, aren't good for family. Why would anyone want to do it? 
That's all. I'm not against a common language, I am saying that imho demands "no Russian while I am at home" are unreasonable and discriminative to say the least.

 you think Greg is rude but the wife was the one who ignored him. she was excluding him from the conversation.  anyhow,  this isn't new,  Russians/ Americans don't have the monopoly on bilingual households and from those that I know,  they all seem to manage just fine.  this is a non issue,  and it shows that you guys place  nationalism over common sense. 

 that's the thing, I don't think I would forbid Russian,  or whatever foreign language at home,  but I would feel ostracized if my wife spoke  in Russian with my kids while I'm there.
 you wouldn't do it in a business meeting, or a group of friends.

yeah, farting makes you more comfortable,  but  if someone asks me not to fart  in  their presence,  would I feel offended? seriously, I  shouldn't have been farting  in  public in the first place...

 did  your parents not teach you manners?  Are you so combative that not even your husband could make a simple request that 90%  of the people in this world would deem warranted?

 apparently  the 10%  is overrepresented here.
 

[Daveman]

yeah, farting makes you more comfortable,  but  if someone asks me not to fart  in  their presence,  would I feel offended? seriously, I  shouldn't have been farting  in  public in the first place...

Well, at least you'd be using a universally common language... plus rrrrrolling r's would be much easier.

[mies]

that's the thing, I don't think I would forbid Russian,  or whatever foreign language at home,  but I would feel ostracized if my wife spoke  in Russian with my kids while I'm there.
 you wouldn't do it in a business meeting, or a group of friends.

And despite feeling ostracized, you would insist on her not speaking Russian (and improving her English continuously) rather than perhaps trying to learn a few words in her language? So there is some principle (nationalism? egocentrism?) that prevents you from learning the language of your wife, but forcing her to speak your language because "she should have good manners" and it is clearly convenient for you?

yeah, farting makes you more comfortable,  but  if someone asks me not to fart  in  their presence,  would I feel offended? seriously, I  shouldn't have been farting  in  public in the first place...

 did  your parents not teach you manners?  Are you so combative that not even your husband could make a simple request that 90%  of the people in this world would deem warranted?

 apparently  the 10%  is overrepresented here.

hm. It is interesting to get a "lesson" on good manners from a person who has little clue on the matter.
Just to make sure I understand you: are you comparing speaking Russian or any other language foreign to you, to farting?
Do you think it's a sign of good manners to make 4 people around you to experience certain degree of discomfort simply because you are not wiling to make any effort to understand their language?
Do you think it is correct to compare a situation of one meeting, where all present speak at least one common language and can easily switch to it, to a situation of the family - long term relationship, where at least 2 people do not speak common language but everyone has time to learn the language they want to understand? (that is, IF they want to understand it).

[LiveFromUkraine]

hm. It is interesting to get a "lesson" on good manners from a person who has little clue on the matter.
Just to make sure I understand you: are you comparing speaking Russian or any other language foreign to you, to farting?
Do you think it's a sign of good manners to make 4 people around you to experience certain degree of discomfort simply because you are not wiling to make any effort to understand their language?
Do you think it is correct to compare a situation of one meeting, where all present speak at least one common language and can easily switch to it, to a situation of the family - long term relationship, where at least 2 people do not speak common language but everyone has time to learn the language they want to understand? (that is, IF they want to understand it).

Am I the only one confused by Mies' post? 


4 people are now in discomfort over speaking English and then 2 people do not speak a common language.


Where are these numbers coming from?

Apparently Greg should have learned Russian so he could speak with his family even though they live in the US which pretty much requires English.

As usual, it's the guys fault and the RW is a victim.       I am sure her new unemployed husband is learning Russian as we speak for family dinners.


Also, we now know flatulence is not the international language of love.


I don't really see what the problem is.  Speaking Russian all the time while Greg is at work or outside of family time.


Speak Russian but also say it in English to include Greg into the conversation.  I bet that would have made him feel good to see such effort to include him.


Greg could have made it a game where his kids could teach him Russian words during family time.

Really, this doesn't have to be a Russian or English type of thing yet some here are trying to make it out as one.


I suspect this "issue" was just a manifestation of something else.

[Misha]

that's the thing, I don't think I would forbid Russian,  or whatever foreign language at home,  but I would feel ostracized if my wife spoke  in Russian with my kids while I'm there.

The problem is that too often many English-speakers see it as "rude" hearing any language other than English, even if they are not actually participating in the conversation.


Let us take your example, you say "I would feel ostracized if my wife spoke in Russian while I'm there." What does "there" really mean? In the conversation, in the room, in the house? If you were to feel "ostracized" simply because your wife was speaking Russian to the kids while you were in the house, then this would mean in most cases that your wife potentially would never speak Russian ever with her children. Imagine this scenario: both of you are working, both come home at the same time, and your wife wants to ask the kids in her language how their day went, as she has not seen them all day, but she can't because you are in the house. How do you think she would feel? I agree with Mies, one parent should not dictate the language used by the other parent to their children.

[ML]

Ochka has a relative who moved with his wife and son to Ireland about 5 years ago.

The son was around 4 at the time, so started school a year later.
Mother and father know English at about 5-6 level out of 10.

About one year after starting school, the son (age 6 or so) said to parents who were still speaking almost 100% Ukrainian in home:

"Are you going to become Irish, or are you going to remain Ukrainians living in Ireland?"

They now have a second one year + old son who is learning all new words in both English and Ukrainian.

The older son (9 + now) cannot tell a complete story (like what happened in school today) in Ukrainian and has to revert to mostly English.

So it seems like teaching the younger son Ukrainian will mostly be in vain.

[Елена]

And despite feeling ostracized, you would insist on her not speaking Russian (and improving her English continuously) rather than perhaps trying to learn a few words in her language? So there is some principle (nationalism? egocentrism?) that prevents you from learning the language of your wife, but forcing her to speak your language because "she should have good manners" and it is clearly convenient for you?

hm. It is interesting to get a "lesson" on good manners from a person who has little clue on the matter.
Just to make sure I understand you: are you comparing speaking Russian or any other language foreign to you, to farting?
Do you think it's a sign of good manners to make 4 people around you to experience certain degree of discomfort simply because you are not wiling to make any effort to understand their language?
Do you think it is correct to compare a situation of one meeting, where all present speak at least one common language and can easily switch to it, to a situation of the family - long term relationship, where at least 2 people do not speak common language but everyone has time to learn the language they want to understand? (that is, IF they want to understand it).

I think that's very true. In our country, people speak different languages. and a lot of interracial family . Then the kids know 2 languages ​​. If I was married to a foreigner , my children will speak in Russian required! Why did you marry Russian , if not tolerant of other people's language . . Maybe it's a well known fact among psychologists , but there is a story about a family in which speak 4 languages ​​! Grandparents , parents of the child were of different nationalities and every one said only in their native language . I think it's normal. If you are married to a Russian , it is necessary to remember that children are almost Russian and need to know the language and culture of a great country . Selfishness is what destroys the family . What for ?

[TS]

The nice thing about this thread were seeing a lot of different opinions.  Some good advice for foreign men who want to marry a RW and have their children in the house or make children together they better talk about language spoken in the house before marriage.  We can see many people are strongly about this.  Just another reason why 90% of these RW and foreign men marriages end up in divorce. 
Most people speak 2 languages in this World and best time to learn is when young.  I am 42 years old and I know growing up I was required to take 4 years of foreign language in high school or I would not graduate.  I even had to take another 2 years in college to get an accounting degree.  Now My dad in his 60's only knew English.  Don't know the ages on this board but it does appear the older men tend to think only English is the way to go. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[pokerintherear]

If I was married to a foreigner , my children will speak in Russian required! Why did you marry Russian , if not tolerant of other people's language .

Could you elaborate more on your thinking?

If you marry foreign man and most likely move to his home country how do you assimilate into the community without learning the language of the country you moved to?

[Misha]

Could you elaborate more on your thinking?

If you marry foreign man and most likely move to his home country how do you assimilate into the community without learning the language of the country you moved to?

It is not hard to understand Elena. She wants to learn English, but she would also want her children to know Russian.

[pokerintherear]

I did not ask you but yes I understand that. I m looking for her opinion

[lonedrake]

Just another reason why 90% of these RW and foreign men marriages end up in divorce. 
Most people speak 2 languages in this World

 Both of these statistics seem way out there.  From what I have read 40-50% of these marriages end in divorce and it is just my guess but I would be surprised if 20% of the worlds population speak two languages.

[YoungBuck]

The problem is that too often many English-speakers see it as "rude" hearing any language other than English, even if they are not actually participating in the conversation.  I


Let us take your example, you say "I would feel ostracized if my wife spoke in Russian while I'm there." What does "there" really mean? In the conversation, in the room, in the house? If you were to feel "ostracized" simply because your wife was speaking Russian to the kids while you were in the house, then this would mean in most cases that your wife potentially would never speak Russian ever with her children. Imagine this scenario: both of you are working, both come home at the same time, and your wife wants to ask the kids in her language how their day went, as she has not seen them all day, but she can't because you are in the house. How do you think she would feel? I agree with Mies, one parent should not dictate the language used by the other parent to their children.

it's not English speakers,  for me,  Spanish is the household language.
I didn't have a problem because my ex was fluent in both,  but I was thinking about the differences  sometime before,  and since half my family can't speak English,  then how would I  approach a relationship with an only English speaker? she would have to learn some Spanish.  similarly, I  would need to learn her parent's language.
I  actually have a book in Russian history with the English translation,  had a  grammar book at my office,  etc.  I'll still complete the exercise because you never know,  but the general impression I get from the FSU  people here is preserving their culture at all costs. it would make a relationship with fsu  very hard since I'm already a mix of two cultures.
 sorry to say,  but that's the worst attitude to have especially,  when many cultures have some good,  and some bad.  I would pick the best and discard the rest.

 we also have two scenarios that are different.
I picture sitting down at the dinner table and the wife carrying on in Russian as if I'm not there,  my input doesn't matter, etc.

 you guys see a  husband dictator forbidding the utterance of Russian.  not even da,  because that would spoil the children's language ability.

 I'm not really sure which is which with Greg,  but for me the first one is insulting to the husband,  second is insulting to the wife.

[lonedrake]

I would be surprised if 20% of the worlds population speak two languages.

 Color me surprised.   I googled it and the results vary....but seems it is between 50-60%.

Guess I will google divorce rates too

[Daveman]

Color me surprised.   I googled it and the results vary....but seems it is between 50-60%.

Guess I will google divorce rates too

I highly doubt that percentage indicates fluency with two languages.  I guess I could be colored surprised as well, though.  I think most would be similar to myself.  I can "speak and understand in four languages", of those four, I'm decent in two, and of those two I'm fluent in exactly one.


I'm not overly concerned about the numbers, but it would be interesting as to what levels are indicated.

[Misha]

 we also have two scenarios that are different.
I picture sitting down at the dinner table and the wife carrying on in Russian as if I'm not there,  my input doesn't matter, etc.

I see a scenario where the wife would be speaking one language with her children, switching to another language to speak to her husband, children using two or three languages... Again, why is it necessary that everything be solely in you language for you to feel as if you "matter"?

[Misha]

I highly doubt that percentage indicates fluency with two languages.  I guess I could be colored surprised as well, though.  I think most would be similar to myself.  I can "speak and understand in four languages", of those four, I'm decent in two, and of those two I'm fluent in exactly one.


I'm not overly concerned about the numbers, but it would be interesting as to what levels are indicated.

Depends on how you define fluent and whether it means perfect mastery of the grammar. If that is the case, many would be fluent in zero languages 

[GQBlues]

I think that's very true. In our country, people speak different languages. and a lot of interracial family . Then the kids know 2 languages ​​. If I was married to a foreigner , my children will speak in Russian required! Why did you marry Russian , if not tolerant of other people's language . . Maybe it's a well known fact among psychologists , but there is a story about a family in which speak 4 languages ​​! Grandparents , parents of the child were of different nationalities and every one said only in their native language . I think it's normal. If you are married to a Russian , it is necessary to remember that children are almost Russian and need to know the language and culture of a great country . Selfishness is what destroys the family . What for ?

Yeah. I hear you...the more I read this thread, the more convince I become that this subject is really one those things that will be as subjective as the individuals that take part in it.
 
Sometimes, when dealing with things with my wife, I find myself thinking of reversing things to better understand not only her POV, but also have a better perspective into whatever it is (we are) I am dealing with.
 
So I applied it here. Let's see...
 
I meet a gal from Ukraine and fell in love. Married her and decided to live in her country. I speak English and learned some Russian/Ukrainian so we can easily communicate and afford me the opportunity to readily adjust to life in Ukraine. I know living in Ukraine permanently will just be a matter of time before I became fluent and adopt the language so I can fully function within the Ukranian society. My wife never learned English which is OK since it really isn't necessary for her to do so living where we are and me speaking Russian/Ukrainian.
 
Everything's great so far. We have kids. My mother soon starts coming over to stay with us. Started with a month long stay and slowly became 6 months at a time. I know it's a bit tough for my wife considering my mother only speaks English and they really can't communicate. Expectedly, some discomfort starts to become evident as a result...but we're still family.
 
The kids are starting to grow up and mother and I started thinking it'll be a great idea if we start speaking and teaching them how to speak English. Why not. There's 5 of us in the house and with mother being able to speak only English, it's better the kids concentrate on just English when we talk to them. When they get older and start to watch TV, Russian/Ukrainian language will be automatic anyway. Children are like that, so no need to expend more effort in them learning Russian/Ukrainian for now.
 
Soon my wife starts asking if if I could at least speak Russian/Ukrainian with the kids when she's around since she doesn't speak English, FWIW, tells me that Russian/Ukranian is what is spoken in the country to begin with. That bitch! Why is she demanding this of me? I'm their father for crying out loud! I do want our kids to be bilingual but since my mother also comes and stays with us, I really do believe English should be first and foremost with the kids. Why can't she understand this simple logic?
 
Besides, I love my country even if I'm living in Ukraine. My sense of nationality runs deep so I think it's better if the kids first become fluent in English before they start school and be exposed to other children who speak only Russian/Ukrainian, they'll eventually learn the language anyway. What's the rush? For now, equally important to me is that they are able to speak with Baba while she's here...
 
:::oh my, that sexy blonde I met yesterday is a total babe. Gosh, sometimes I wish.....:::::::
 
::::Few more weeks pass::::::
 
Lately my wife is really annoying me! She is repeatedly asking that I speak Russian/Ukrainian when she's in the room with us and the kids. I don't know what her problem really is. I already told her my point of view and I just don't understand why she is being selfish and a bitch about this! She wants to be included in the conversation when we're all home - LEARN ENGLISH!! BOJE MOI!  If I spoke Russian/Ukrainian with the kids, what about my mother? Did she ever even think about that, I wonder? That selfish, controlling bitch who believes everything and everyone had to be according to her rules.

 
Mother is so right about her...
 
:::oh why can't I get that sexy blonde out of my mind!!!! Man, I wish I was still single! Especially since my wife is being the way she is lately:::::::
 
 

[Daveman]

Excellent perspective flip there, though I am virtually positive the justifications will fly.  But, let's ostracize all unilingual parents/spouses (seems that should be 'spice') for not speaking the language of the immigrant. After all, if he/she really wanted to be included in the family, he/she would have learned that language, therefore, he/she has only himself/herself to blame. Arrogant selfish ass should have known better.

[Boethius]

Excellent perspective flip there, though I am virtually positive the justifications will fly.  But, let's ostracize all unilingual parents/spouses (seems that should be 'spice') for not speaking the language of the immigrant. After all, if he/she really wanted to be included in the family, he/she would have learned that language, therefore, he/she has only himself/herself to blame. Arrogant selfish ass should have known better.

Yes, it was excellent. 


I think if you are actively seeking a foreign spouse, you should consider this if you plan to have children.  For example, based on YB's responses here, I don't think a FSUW is for him.