Saved by Mila

[jone]

Okay, Buddy,

You may be right.  My personal feeling is that many go and few are rewarded.

I happened to be in Niko this summer and watched an entire first meeting whereby the guy, speaking no Russian, meets a non English speaker.  It was fairly evident that he had ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to handle the meeting.  Thought you might all enjoy a clandestine picture that I took of the incident.

My one observation about the new standard of pro-dating is that the women are quite passive about it.  They handle the men like they are there to be their tour guides.  The $25.00 per day that they might get for an apartment gratuity, in and of itself, represents more income than a woman would typically make on her own in Ukraine.

[pokerintherear]

It was fairly evident that he had ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to handle the meeting. 

This is the problem with most failed trips.  Men should look in the mirror and do a self-evaluation. They should take a "man class" for lack of a better term. Understand the dynamics of genuine relationships. Once they have the diploma from the "man class" it will all come natural.

Its actually embarrassing knowing the type of men representing the Western Male. Its nothing to be ashamed of. They are the product of the emasculated society of the West. Of course you have the cheering section of men on forums who enable the behavior.

[cc3]

I happened to be in Niko this summer and watched an entire first meeting whereby the guy, speaking no Russian, meets a non English speaker.  It was fairly evident that he had ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to handle the meeting.  Thought you might all enjoy a clandestine picture that I took of the incident.

He looks like a homeless panhandler...like those at traffic intersections in the US with signs begging for help with their starving children...

[Hammer2722]

He looks like a homeless panhandler...like those at traffic intersections in the US with signs begging for help with their starving children...

Unfortunately, this is an all too common site there. Many of the foreign men who I've seen there during my travels dressed this way....

[CanadaMan]

 

 You will find plenty of dates to occupy your time. Take your dates on site
 seeing trips if possible, UW are proud of their country and like showing
 you around.
 
 

 Are those the kind of 'site seeing' trips where you invite your date over to your apartment, open up your notebook computer, and she covers your hand that's holding your mouse, moving it around on a Google map of Ukraine? 
 
 

[Boethius]

Its actually embarrassing knowing the type of men representing the Western Male. Its nothing to be ashamed of. They are the product of the emasculated society of the West. Of course you have the cheering section of men on forums who enable the behavior.

Dressing like a slob has zero to do with emasculation.

[Faux Pas]

Okay, Buddy,

You may be right.  My personal feeling is that many go and few are rewarded.

I happened to be in Niko this summer and watched an entire first meeting whereby the guy, speaking no Russian, meets a non English speaker.  It was fairly evident that he had ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to handle the meeting.  Thought you might all enjoy a clandestine picture that I took of the incident.

My one observation about the new standard of pro-dating is that the women are quite passive about it.  They handle the men like they are there to be their tour guides.  The $25.00 per day that they might get for an apartment gratuity, in and of itself, represents more income than a woman would typically make on her own in Ukraine.

I would tend to go with GQ on this one. Other than he paid her travel expenses to see him, he paid the landlord for the room she rented, he stayed in (alone) sleepy is out nothing at all but yet, he's calling her a Pro? She in all likelihood is a pro of some sort but c'mon, it is he that couldn't discern shite from shinola here until he had a taste on his tongue. Diligence diligence diligence

Guys like Sleepy are the reason gals like Mila are needed. Good thing he contacted her. At least he found her and can salvage his trip. I gennly cringe when I hear a guy want to call a woman a scammer of any sort because of his own stupidity

[Konfushus]

I would tend to go with GQ on this one. Other than he paid her travel expenses to see him, he paid the landlord for the room she rented, he stayed in (alone) sleepy is out nothing at all but yet, he's calling her a Pro?

I gennly cringe when I hear a guy want to call a woman a scammer of any sort because of his own stupidity

Some of you guys are jumping on Sleepycat for calling this chick a scammer. He did so because this Mila, who apparently is recommended here, labeled her as a scammer. She convinced him with evidence (?) from some site.

[GQBlues]

Some of you guys are jumping on Sleepycat for calling this chick a scammer. He did so because this Mila, who apparently is recommended here, labeled her as a scammer. She convinced him with evidence (?) from some site.

I'm not jumping on Sleepy but I am calling spade a spade. The fact the woman literally gave him little to no attention after his first trip (by his own account) showing her disinterest in him should've been enough. 3 weeks of no show? Then when she does shows up (email) only gives him bits and pieces of 'interest' (email response)?

She gave him as much interest in his trip as she did during the post-first trip correspondence. The gifts were all his own call.

As for 'scamming' pics - how many times have we seen men call women 'scammers', much less post pictures (and personal info) of women, here and unto scam websites justifiably or otherwise mostly because the women didn't fall all over them.

[Faux Pas]

Some of you guys are jumping on Sleepycat for calling this chick a scammer. He did so because this Mila, who apparently is recommended here, labeled her as a scammer. She convinced him with evidence (?) from some site.

It's blatantly obvious she had little to no interest in him. Maybe the gal is a nefarious one, maybe she's just not interested in Sleepy. Neither is a crime and neither means she is a scammer or prodater. Maybe flighty or maybe she thought she was helping him out. Is it her fault he can't tell the difference? Mila like any good service provider will come when the call is made.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck

[jone]

I know I've said this before, but not on this forum.  I was in Niko for the summer.  I had dinner with a gal from a chat site.  It was known beforehand that I was not interested in dating her and that I knew the system.  I was able to get some pretty detailed information from her that represents her as a scammer, first class.  And this is the standard that I was referencing:

1.  The Agencies will pay a gal to be online, each night, around $300 per month.
2.  The gal is also paid for ANY apartments that are rented at her recommendation.  While she might not get all of the referral fee, she gets plenty of it.
3.  The gal also gets a referral fee from ANY preferred restaurant she goes to with her 'client'.
4.  The gal gets a referral fee from ANY taxi service that she has her client pay for. One of the cons is that she will use her taxi service and you will PAY for her to get a ride home from that service.  Something that these gals would not do on their own, typically. 
5.  The gal gets a referral fee on any interpreter that is used for your meeting that she selects.

Now, you, FP, and GQ, may be absolutely right about this guy.  He does sound like he didn't have all of his ducks in a row when he came back over.  But the above items demonstrate that a simple, passive date can show enrichment for the woman on many fronts. 

I should point out that this woman had her own Western Union number to receive money from men as well. 

Having an evening with her was quite revealing in understanding how the MOB industry works in Ukraine.

(I know most of you know all of this stuff, but it is important to repeat it every once in awhile so that people new to the forum can absorb it too.)

[GQBlues]

Jone-

These tactics are nothing 'new'. There's been plenty of agencies who's been doing that since I can remember. An old time respected member, JayPatches once coined a gal 'Ice Princess' for dating him when she never was interested in him personally and was simply on the agency's dole.

etceteras here...

Nothing that's happening in Ukraine's side of the MOB today, based on your current contribution, where places like Yoshka-Ola didn't do ( I simply didn't name the agency's name because of the fact they no longer exist or is relevant to the discussion).

[jone]

Full on agree with you.  As I said, most of you know this stuff.  But this thread is started by someone who, I would guess, did not know.

I was curious about the passive nature of the referral income.  It is a less confrontational way to make money.  Let the guy have a good time with you.  You don't need to show him affection and or interest.  Go on your merry way.

Happy day for all concerned except the dupe who couldn't understand the difference between an FSU woman who was into him and one that wasn't but being paid to be there.  FSU women are kind and congenial in social situations.  It is very easy for them to manage this type of interaction - and control it to their advantage.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, YOU WILL KNOW WHEN AN FSU WOMAN IS INTO YOU.

[Faux Pas]

I know I've said this before, but not on this forum.  I was in Niko for the summer.  I had dinner with a gal from a chat site.  It was known beforehand that I was not interested in dating her and that I knew the system.  I was able to get some pretty detailed information from her that represents her as a scammer, first class.  And this is the standard that I was referencing:

1.  The Agencies will pay a gal to be online, each night, around $300 per month.
2.  The gal is also paid for ANY apartments that are rented at her recommendation.  While she might not get all of the referral fee, she gets plenty of it.
3.  The gal also gets a referral fee from ANY preferred restaurant she goes to with her 'client'.
4.  The gal gets a referral fee from ANY taxi service that she has her client pay for. One of the cons is that she will use her taxi service and you will PAY for her to get a ride home from that service.  Something that these gals would not do on their own, typically. 
5.  The gal gets a referral fee on any interpreter that is used for your meeting that she selects.

Now, you, FP, and GQ, may be absolutely right about this guy.  He does sound like he didn't have all of his ducks in a row when he came back over.  But the above items demonstrate that a simple, passive date can show enrichment for the woman on many fronts. 

I should point out that this woman had her own Western Union number to receive money from men as well. 

Having an evening with her was quite revealing in understanding how the MOB industry works in Ukraine.

(I know most of you know all of this stuff, but it is important to repeat it every once in awhile so that people new to the forum can absorb it too.)

The gal you met is apparently an astute young business woman  Do you fault her for that? The old saying "there's a sucker born every second" comes to mind. She's a gamer and she is gaming every foreigner that will let her. She's likely been gamed a few times along the way as well.

Those are out there and many agency/sites are crawling with them. The onus is, and always has been on the men seeking the foreign women. They, in essence are sheep to slaughter. 5 years ago I would have been much more sympathetic to the man. I just can't in all conscience feel the same way anymore. Personal responsibility has to be accounted for some where

[jone]

Funniest damn thing, FP.  She wasn't that bright. 

First of all:  Her age was 18. She was a friend of a friend that I knew - and he knew that I was curious.  So he had her meet me.

Second:  I asked her who in the agency was real and who in the agency was there to make money.  Her answer:  Everyone was there to make money.  "We all have our own boyfriends."

Third:  I asked her how she learned all of this.  She told me that it was drilled into her by her "Coach/Interpreter" from the agency.

[GQBlues]

...Third:  I asked her how she learned all of this.  She told me that it was drilled into her by her "Coach/Interpreter" from the agency.

You definitely missed my little stories I told here not too long ago about the Dutch guy who brought an engagement ring to a gal on his 1st trip.

The gal never even know this guy at all and the entire time he was apparently corresponding to a woman who was an agency's translator/writer. Long story short, the Dutch guy decided to finally make a trip, but in the meantime he *met* a guy from the US (on RWG) who was also planning to visit about the same time and place he was. They then planned on 'double dating', LOL.

The Dutch guy met the 'girl' he wanted to get engaged with. They met in TVER and scheduled a trip to St Pete. The girl the US guy was 'dating' was the translator/writer. She and the agency talked the other girl into going along (paid her) and meet the Dutch guy. When they go to St Pete, the girl couldn't stand it anymore and just left. She apparently was getting heat from her Russian BF as to her whereabouts.

The other girl confessed all of these to her US guy after they were all back 'home'.

Another great story was a guy who went to meet the 'love of his life'. She, a paid pro, literally took him for for what she can out of him. Had him dining her friends, bowling, shopping, etc. the usual stuff...He was writing a *live* trip report.

He wasn't *getting* anything from this gal, not even hold her hands. After finally listening to everyone he's getting fleeced, he finally got the guts to confront the woman for her scamming ways. But he did (told her) this right at the time they were in an expensive clothing store while she was trying on a nice sweater in front of her girlfriend. LOL, I remember this story well because of what happened after.

He: "Look, I know what's going on here, I can't believe I allowed myself to be abused like this..."
She: "What you mean? I don't understand."
He: "You don't care for me. I thought we should meet and maybe have a chance for marriage. But you have been cold to me the entire time and have me just spend, spend and spend money for you and your friends. I don't want this anymore!"
She: "How you say this. I never say to you I marry you. You believe I tell you I marry you. I never say to you. So we meet anyway. Speak with Agency if you do not believe me."
She: Looks at her friend than looks back at him, "Why, so you want sex with me? This is the problem? If you want I have sex with you, then OK, you buy me this sweater and tonight we sex.."

You'd think it should stop right there and then, yes? Nope, of course not.

He buys her the sweater, her GF leaves them - then they both go to his apartment. She showers, he decides to also take a shower...and here's the part of the report I vividly remembers because it's hysterical if not downright absurd.....

Instead of being upset, angry, betrayed, used and abused...he reported every small details, how, while he was in the shower, he intentionally left the bathroom door ajar so he can see her silhouette in the event she decides to leave the last minute while he's showering and ditch him.

In both of these examples...where do you really believe, or think, should the fault lies with?

[ML]

This is why I always carry handcuffs or some sort of mechanism to lock her to the bed frame while I am in the shower.

I don't want to have to have the agony of no sex after sweater purchase.

[mendeleyev]

Some of you guys are jumping on Sleepycat for calling this chick a scammer. He did so because this Mila, who apparently is recommended here, labeled her as a scammer. She convinced him with evidence (?) from some site.

He sent me a PM with link to the site. The site belongs to a local agency that suspected that she might not be on the up and up so they had pulled her off site, but I don't think that it labeled her a scammer. That seemed to me as an opinion of Mila and there again we may have language technicality issues.

[CanadaMan]

This is why I always carry handcuffs or some sort of mechanism to lock her to the bed frame while I am in the shower.

I don't want to have to have the agony of no sex after sweater purchase.

I'm surprised you still do this at home now. 

[Gator]

Myself, I would never go back on a WOVO visit to a gal I had previously met . . . if there hadn't been some serious sex involved on the first visit (but this doesn't apply to the many here who dated and married virgins) along with some serious talk about the next visit, assurances about definite time off from work, some interaction with some of her family and friends, etc.

A reasonable guideline with some obvious caveats about sex.  Of your list, the best indicator is meeting friends and family.
 
An even more important step is the communication upon returning to the West (or East in sleepycat's case).   The many talks should leave no doubt about making a second trip on a WOVO basis. 
 
This is where sleepycat came up short.  However, striking out as he did is not a reason to admonish him.  He recognized his mistake and decisively got back into the game.  A few men might have stayed imprisoned in that flat awaiting for the dubious woman to call.  That would be failure, a dismal failure.
 
 

[JayH]

 . . . if there hadn't been some serious sex involved on the first visit (but this doesn't apply to the many here who dated and married virgins) along with some serious talk about the next visit, assurances about definite time off from work, some interaction with some of her family and friends, etc.

I   do not agree with the sex issue theory of ML's. Just as the GQ example of the Dutch guy who took engagement ring on the first visit  was way premature to presume too much-- so is using the sex issue as an indicator.
Guys may well do themselves a disservice if they proceed on that basis--  and in effect-exclude what may be a real potential long time partner. Girls are more conservative than that and a guy has many hurdles to jump in those first few days.Pushing too hard about sex will definitely have a negative impact on a girls thinking-- she will have "sex tourist" as a first hurdle the guy must pass. The bigger the age difference-- the bigger the issue.
Putting it in guys heads that these girls are "easy" is only perpetrating internet myths.

[calmissile]

I   do not agree with the sex issue theory of ML's. Just as the GQ example of the Dutch guy who took engagement ring on the first visit  was way premature to presume too much-- so is using the sex issue as an indicator.
Guys may well do themselves a disservice if they proceed on that basis--  and in effect-exclude what may be a real potential long time partner. Girls are more conservative than that and a guy has many hurdles to jump in those first few days.Pushing too hard about sex will definitely have a negative impact on a girls thinking-- she will have "sex tourist" as a first hurdle the guy must pass. The bigger the age difference-- the bigger the issue.
Putting it in guys heads that these girls are "easy" is only perpetrating internet myths.

+1

[ML]

Pushing too hard about sex will definitely have a negative impact on a girls thinking-- she will have "sex tourist" as a first hurdle the guy must pass.
Putting it in guys heads that these girls are "easy" is only perpetrating internet myths.

I never said anything about 'pushing hard for sex' and I never said anything that would imply these gals were any easier than gals from anywhere.  The myths are mainly that these gals are conservative, etc.

[2tallbill]

What on gawd's green earth do guys like you really expect? You were a WMVM but expect these women to fall all over you guys on the basis of 2 dinner dates and when things don't go as 'expected', you automatically tag them either as scammer/s or a pro-dater/s.

Yeah, Mila may indeed have saved someone from your particular association with this gal - but methinks it wasn't you.

He continued writing to her and she knows in advance that he is coming to
see her exclusively and disappears for two days.


Any reasonable guy should expect that not to happen with a good girl.
Maybe she isn't a scammer or a prodater, but she's not a good girl and
he needs to move on, and continue his search for a good girl.


Surely you don't disagree,


Udachi !


Bill
[size=78%] [/size]

[cc3]

I have said it before, and I will say it again, YOU WILL KNOW WHEN AN FSU WOMAN IS INTO YOU.

+1000!