Saved by Mila

[cc3]

This is why I always carry handcuffs or some sort of mechanism to lock her to the bed frame while I am in the shower.

I don't want to have to have the agony of no sex after sweater purchase.

 

[Gator]

Surely you don't disagree,

Bill, some members here impress me as believing RW can do no wrong and MOB men can do no right.  Or if the RW does something not nice, the man deserved it.
 
Fortunately, when dating in the FSU the man on the battlefield is the commander, not the armchair generals.

[JayH]

I never said anything about 'pushing hard for sex' and I never said anything that would imply these gals were any easier than gals from anywhere.  The myths are mainly that these gals are conservative, etc.

ML-- I am actually talking about most guys. Most will have taken forever in any situation in their lives and have not a clue how to create the opportunity. By suggesting that 1st or 2nd or even 6th date is the normal  situation in the FSU I think it is misleading them. Guys will apply that standard and push too hard too soon-- not giving themselves the chance to develop a relationship.
I do not think it is a myth about being conservative-- certainly so compared to my experiences in various western countries. I am not talking about once the veil has lifted-- but in getting to that point-they can be very cautious- even if that is only temporary.
I cannot see any reason to not return to see someone who has not been a sexual partner--that is not in my equation  of decision making.

[GQBlues]

He continued writing to her and she knows in advance that he is coming to
see her exclusively and disappears for two days.


Any reasonable guy should expect that not to happen with a good girl.
Maybe she isn't a scammer or a prodater, but she's not a good girl and
he needs to move on, and continue his search for a good girl.


Surely you don't disagree,


Udachi !


Bill
[size=78%] [/size]

Bill-

Any reasonable guy? Really? Did you miss reply #5?

Any reasonable guy would've bailed out right there and then.  That's the problem with the ol' rah-rah advice men used to give out around here. Every bad behavior or signals are shape as cultural difference because many of the old guards submit to such antics themselves.

The OPs reaction to what is otherwise a blatant display of disinterest is to offer her with a gift. That's what a lot of the old timers resorted to too.

There's nothing reasonable about that silliness. None. They met 3 months ago, within that time she bailed on him for 3 weeks and when she was around she gave him as little attention as possible. Even the OP now, in hindsight, believes what he did was in fact unreasonable.

Read reply #5 and tell us what would you have done .

Now do you disagree with that?

[2tallbill]

Bill, some members here impress me as believing RW can do no wrong and MOB men can do no right.  Or if the RW does something not nice, the man deserved it.

Yes, I refer them to the pedestal preservation guys. 

Fortunately, when dating in the FSU the man on the battlefield is the commander, not the armchair generals.

Agree, absolutely

[2tallbill]

Bill-

Any reasonable guy? Really? Did you miss reply #5?

I skimmed it, didn't read it.

Any reasonable guy would've bailed out right there and then.  That's the problem with the ol' rah-rah advice men used to give out around here. Every bad behavior or signals are shape as cultural difference because many of the old guards submit to such antics themselves.The OPs reaction to what is otherwise a blatant display of disinterest is to offer her with a gift. That's what a lot of the old timers resorted to too.There's nothing reasonable about that silliness. None. They met 3 months ago, within that time she bailed on him for 3 weeks and when she was around she gave him as little attention as possible. Even the OP now, in hindsight, believes what he did was in fact unreasonable.Read reply #5 and tell us what would you have done .

Nope, I would have tossed her out like milk three weeks past the due date.
He made several goofball rookie mistakes, no question.

Read reply #5 and tell us what would you have done .Now do you disagree with that?

No we are in agreement about what he should have done. I think that
we are also in agreement that after making those mistakes he should
have dumped her.

Now, he should give himself a pep talk. Forget her like old dental floss
but remember to keep his eyes open this time. Then try to salvage the
time left with boots on the ground by meeting girls until he finds a good
girl.


He likely needs a wing man (or wing woman) Mila can probably help
steer him around the eye candy bad girls, provided he listens to her
advice.


Udachi!


Bill   

[mendeleyev]

Putting it in guys heads that these girls are "easy" is only perpetrating internet myths

I agree but the ladies who are bold enough to date foreign men are not the conservative ones typically. The big mistake WM make in this area is to assume that ladies on foreign dating sites are representative of the population as a whole. They're simply not.

At the same time it would be a mistake to label all rest of the ladies as conservative. That isn't truth either. It is a mixed bag, millions of people who are individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy. If you take internal polling data from reputable pollsters, there are plenty for anyone's fancy.

[calmissile]

I agree but the ladies who are bold enough to date foreign men are not the conservative ones typically. The big mistake WM make in this area is to assume that ladies on foreign dating sites are representative of the population as a whole. They're simply not.

At the same time it would be a mistake to label all rest of the ladies as conservative. That isn't truth either. It is a mixed bag, millions of people who are individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy. If you take internal polling data from reputable pollsters, there are plenty for anyone's fancy.

And some of us had to learn it the hard way.     

[Brillynt]

My wife's 18 year old daughter started her first year of university this year. She is studying to be a language teacher. One of the boys in her English class works for a dating website translating letters / writing to western men. According to her, he has 4 girls accounts that he manages all the letters for, which the girls do nothing except meet the men if they show up.  So again beware of whom you are talking to, it could just be a English student in university making money.   

[Patagonie]

Okay, Buddy,

You may be right.  My personal feeling is that many go and few are rewarded.

I happened to be in Niko this summer and watched an entire first meeting whereby the guy, speaking no Russian, meets a non English speaker.  It was fairly evident that he had ABSOLUTELY no clue in how to handle the meeting.  Thought you might all enjoy a clandestine picture that I took of the incident.

My one observation about the new standard of pro-dating is that the women are quite passive about it.  They handle the men like they are there to be their tour guides.  The $25.00 per day that they might get for an apartment gratuity, in and of itself, represents more income than a woman would typically make on her own in Ukraine.

Again, newbies, avoid this type of clothes, please dress stylish, avoid to buy bags and baggy clothes,  you are not a sandpit, buy clothes which EXACTLY fit your size.
90%  of men wear clothes larger than they need.
If you can avoid also hiking boots or shoes for demolition site, help you please.

[Patagonie]

This is why I always carry handcuffs or some sort of mechanism to lock her to the bed frame while I am in the shower.

I don't want to have to have the agony of no sex after sweater purchase.

I close carefully the door of the appartment and keep the key in bathroom,
I also add some pill in her tea so she can feel really relax when the time will come to not neglect her duty.
When she is in bathroom i take her wallet in case she needs money for taxis as i don't have any cash left and i hide the gifts bought during the day to prevent them from the dust.

For the price i fuck her hard by all possible entrances.

[Faux Pas]

Whoaaaaa
Nice fashion tips there Patie but a little  on what you do to all her entrances 

[Jumper]

I agree but the ladies who are bold enough to date foreign men are not the conservative ones typically. The big mistake WM make in this area is to assume that ladies on foreign dating sites are representative of the population as a whole. They're simply not.

At the same time it would be a mistake to label all rest of the ladies as conservative. That isn't truth either. It is a mixed bag, millions of people who are individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy. If you take internal polling data from reputable pollsters, there are plenty for anyone's fancy.

This should be stickied at the top of the forum.

[Gator]

Bill-

Any reasonable guy? Really? Did you miss reply #5?

Any reasonable guy would've bailed out right there and then. 

Agree. He made a big mistake.

That's the problem with the ol' rah-rah advice men used to give out around here. Every bad behavior or signals are shape as cultural difference because many of the old guards submit to such antics themselves.

"...many of the old guards..."      Even 11 years ago, before RWD, the old guards were never recommending this.  Read JB, KenC, et al.   The old guards were pragmatic. 

The OPs reaction to what is otherwise a blatant display of disinterest is to offer her with a gift. That's what a lot of the old timers resorted to too.

He brought some gifts because he was expecting to spend days with her and her alone.  The question is how much did sleepycat assume without any basis, and how much did the woman encourage him.  We do not know.  The woman knew he was coming and surely did some encouragement by finding an apartment. It seems sleepycat never asked some key questions such as what she wished to do with him for each of the 10 days he was there, e. g., meet parents on Wednesday, take a trip to the country on Thursday, etc.

[Gator]

I agree but the ladies who are bold enough to date foreign men are not the conservative ones typically. The big mistake WM make in this area is to assume that ladies on foreign dating sites are representative of the population as a whole. They're simply not.

At the same time it would be a mistake to label all rest of the ladies as conservative. That isn't truth either. It is a mixed bag, millions of people who are individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy. If you take internal polling data from reputable pollsters, there are plenty for anyone's fancy.

Totally agree IF  you also mean that the "ladies on foreign dating sites" (and not just the "rest of the ladies") are also individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy.   
 
There are many dubious women listed on foreign dating sites.  There are many genuine women as well. Two qualities that seem to cover most of the genuine women I met is that they have a sense of adventure and have not been lucky in love.  Some are highly educated, some are not.  Some are smart, some are stupid (one UW when I called did not understand that it was daylight at my home and nighttime there ).   Some are sexual, some are not.  Some have a SOH, some are dull and boring.  Some want children, some do not.  Etc., etc. etc.

[ML]

I cannot see any reason to not return to see someone who has not been a sexual partner--that is not in my equation  of decision making.

I didn't say this either.  You keep implying things that I did not say.

[mendeleyev]

Totally agree IF  you also mean that the "ladies on foreign dating sites" (and not just the "rest of the ladies") are also individuals and hard to pigeonhole with any accuracy.

To a degree.

Both men and women who end up marrying internationally are not common folk. I liken them to the American pioneers. Most people stayed home and a smaller percentage got on wagons and headed West. Others cautiously ventured West after it was safe and many stayed home. It takes a person with a certain kind of drive to root up from country, family, friends, culture, language and a host of other factors to travel thousands of miles to live with a foreign mate. If it were common, the number of international marriages would be large--but it is small. Many write, few travel. Such is human nature.

There are certain common factors that are found in the CEO ranks of the world, in the ranks of elite rulers, of those who become wealthy, etc. There are certain common factors present in those who venture into the ranks of international marriage that are absent in the bulk of the population. Not everyone has the personality and drive to not only dream, but to live the adventure.

Are there differences within those small ranks of CEOs, rulers, millionaires, and international married couples? Sure, but they do not represent the average person on the street.

[Muzh]

The OPs reaction to what is otherwise a blatant display of disinterest is to offer her with a gift. That's what a lot of the old timers resorted to too.

He brought some gifts because he was expecting to spend days with her and her alone.  The question is how much did sleepycat assume without any basis, and how much did the woman encourage him.  We do not know.  The woman knew he was coming and surely did some encouragement by finding an apartment. It seems sleepycat never asked some key questions such as what she wished to do with him for each of the 10 days he was there, e. g., meet parents on Wednesday, take a trip to the country on Thursday, etc.

I don't see it that way and tend to agree with GQ.
 
This is a very typical American type of courting; I'll bribe you with gifts so you owe me something. Anything.
 
Let's be honest. The majority of these FSU women on agency sites are just responding to what they see from the majority of the men who contact them. It is easy to see why they have no qualms about asking for gifts, it is assumed that the guy will try to bribe her into something.
 
What was that example I read somewhere? You want sex? Buy me coat and I'll give you sex tonight.

[Gator]

To a degree.

Both men and women who end up marrying internationally are not common folk. I liken them to the American pioneers. Most people stayed home and a smaller percentage got on wagons and headed West. Others cautiously ventured West after it was safe and many stayed home. It takes a person with a certain kind of drive to root up from country, family, friends, culture, language and a host of other factors to travel thousands of miles to live with a foreign mate. If it were common, the number of international marriages would be large--but it is small. Many write, few travel. Such is human nature.

Totally agree.  In my post I said the RW I met had a sense of adventure, which I liken to your more definitive term of pioneer spirit.    When meeting the friends of these women, their attitude about moving to the US was about the same as my American friends who almost unanimously  questioned my interest in dating a RW.   
 
I also mentioned "unlucky in love" as the only other common quality.   And I guess that this pair of qualities ("pioneer spirit" and "unlucky in love") are less evident in the overall population of RW.   After pulling away those two common qualities,  the individual RW who date foreign men varied widely.
 
The RW meeting foreign men have some other common  elements which I do not mention because I expect they are cultural and thereby fairly common in the total RW population (skeptical, somewhat superstitious, etc.). 

[jone]

I close carefully the door of the appartment and keep the key in bathroom,
I also add some pill in her tea so she can feel really relax when the time will come to not neglect her duty.
When she is in bathroom i take her wallet in case she needs money for taxis as i don't have any cash left and i hide the gifts bought during the day to prevent them from the dust.

For the price i fuck her hard by all possible entrances.

Pat, you are one suave guy, let me tell you!

How, on earth, did you stay single all of those years?

[Gator]

 This is a very typical American type of courting; I'll bribe you with gifts so you owe me something. Anything.

There are many reasons for giving, in ascending order of spiritual importance.
1.  To bribe. 
2.  It is customary, right thing to do, etc.. 
3.  The recipient is needy and the giver is kind.   
4.   Delighting in the joy of the recipient.
5.   Because one cares for the recipient.
 
I know only myself.  I consider myself generous (most of the time) which means I give without expecting anything in return.  Giving is good for me. 
 
I brought small presents with me when meeting RW for the first time.  I knew that bringing something unique from America (e. g., maple syrup) would start a good conversation.  I also knew that giving small presents is customary in the FSU.   Many RW had small gifts for me, and all the friends who have visited my wife here in Florida have arrived bearing gifts from the motherland. 
 
If I spent a few days with a RW, and wanted to see her again and knew she did too, I would indeed buy her something special just before saying farewell.   I recall buying a leather jacket, a good cellphone, leather boots, things she needed.   I felt good.  Also, I wanted her to remember me as a man who cared.  Do you consider the latter reason a bribe, even though it was too late for even a quickie  and we might not see each other again? 
 
So Muzh, what is your basis for saying bribes are typical for American men.   Is this based on your many specific observations of American men dating RW or just your guess because you look down on men who date RW?    Let's be honest (your phrase) with your answer.
 

Let's be honest. The majority of these FSU women on agency sites are just responding to what they see from the majority of the men who contact them. It is easy to see why they have no qualms about asking for gifts, it is assumed that the guy will try to bribe her into something. 

The majority?  Very few RW asked me for a gift, and if they did it was like pouring cold water on me.   It is different  in a  monogamous relationship.  When taking such a RW shopping,  she certainly will not be shy if you hesitate to pick up her signals when she models for you a pretty dress that looks glorious on her.  Do you tell your wife "No" or do you avoid going shopping with her.
 
I was just in Las Vegas.  Because we don't gamble the only thing to do in daytime is to walk around, marveling at the glitz and watching strange people.   It rained for two days, so the only activity was shopping.  My bill was only $800 for two items.   I did not buy the Jimmy Choo shoes for $900 (and she mentioned that twice afterwards and then silence).     The Piaget shop was remarkable if one wanted a $70,000 watch.  It sure was pretty.     
 

What was that example I read somewhere? You want sex? Buy me coat and I'll give you sex tonight.

Such defines a prostitute.  Twice I encountered that without the explicit talk of sex.    I turned them down and moved on because my intentions were noble.  To this day, I still kick myself over one woman because I know she would have been a great lay as probably would have been her unseen friend who it seems would have joined us. 

[Daveman]

Again, newbies, avoid this type of clothes, please dress stylish, avoid to buy bags and baggy clothes,  you are not a sandpit, buy clothes which EXACTLY fit your size.
90%  of men wear clothes larger than they need.
If you can avoid also hiking boots or shoes for demolition site, help you please.

I agree.  Most men go there because of the standard reasons:


1) Women dress very well and sexily..
2) Women wear makeup even to do grocery shopping.
3) Women take great care about their appearance.


These are indicators that appearance is very important to them.  Compare how the typical western male travelers dress compared to the local guys and there is little wonder why foreigners are immediately recognizable -- especially so by shoes.  Women notice the slightest details of appearance.  She's taken notice of your shoes from 50 yards away. They have a scrutinizing radar for this kind of thing.


Maryana's radar can detect a virtually microscopic speck of dirt on the side of my shoe from across the street or lint the size of a pin head from across the room.  I'm hard pressed to notice a dime sized stain on the front of my shirt, which in her world is a capital offense.

[steveboy]

I agree.  Most men go there because of the standard reasons:


1) Women dress very well and sexily..
2) Women wear makeup even to do grocery shopping.
3) Women take great care about their appearance.


These are indicators that appearance is very important to them.  Compare how the typical western male travelers dress compared to the local guys and there is little wonder why foreigners are immediately recognizable -- especially so by shoes.  Women notice the slightest details of appearance.  She's taken notice of your shoes from 50 yards away. They have a scrutinizing radar for this kind of thing.


Maryana's radar can detect a virtually microscopic speck of dirt on the side of my shoe from across the street or lint the size of a pin head from across the room.  I'm hard pressed to notice a dime sized stain on the front of my shirt, which in her world is a capital offense.

Yes! What is it about a spot of Micro dust and these women spot it a mile a away, something I have noticed for many years.

But also noticed and heard many US guys have no fashion sense what soever when it comes to dressing?

[GQBlues]

..."...many of the old guards..."      Even 11 years ago, before RWD, the old guards were never recommending this.  Read JB, KenC, et al.   The old guards were pragmatic...

Pragmatic. LOL. Neo came back here not too long ago promoting marriage with a woman who doesn't speak English. His reason was it's akin to having a relationship with your dog...

Pragmatic is as pragmatic does...LOL.

I digress.

'jb'...of all the old timers, it's ironic you'd cite 'jb'. The jb I knew was banned by Spencer from RWG for never mincing niceties with the typical Yankee Betaboys. The jb I knew never backed off his conviction in giving MOBers his opinion of them. I know he caught heat with Dan too and others for not mincing his words about some of these silly US clown-Romeos. The jb I know would have said the same thing with the likes of CalgaryCowboy, Sleepycat, et al much in the same tone I have, if not even more so. The jb I know is a straight-shooter whom I regard as one who told it like it really is. The jb I knew didn't promote the hype and the silly myth lonely MOBers customarily do.

Heck, the jb I knew gave me the very best and most helpful advice through PM because they were REAL. Not some stupid mythical hype BY MOBers found plastered all over the forums. The jb I knew once told me straight up to tear my tickets up and forget I even contemplated the MOB. He told me the MOB was not for me. The MOB is typically tailored for society's misfit.

Is this the *jb* you referred to? Or are you thinking of another *jb*?


KenC...I hardly remember much about what KenC doled out before other than the one hype promotion he always posted. He would post

"ALL American women are so jealous of Russian women I can literally see it in the eyes!".

I'm sure many of you know KenC and his (ex)wife. Imagine what an average American woman would really think if one stood and looked at Ken and his 'ex'. FWIW, I'd hazard a guess *jealousy* wasn't one of them.

*Old timers* - they come in all sizes (no pun intended) I will admit that, but there's plenty of them who threw a whole bunch of nonsense to further confused the clueless...

Things like:

a) You don't want to be called 'GREEDY' by a Russian woman. You want to try to avoid being considered as one. It's a kiss of death; b) These gals *sacrifice* all they have ever known to be with you (LOL); c) She submitted herself through the MOB (they call it - International Marriages - to make sound more kosher) specifically for you; d) FSUWs seek western men because all RM are drunken, wife-beating losers. They dream of marriage with western men; e) FSUWs are survivors. LOL.

...there's plenty more of these silliness. No need to list all of the BS.

The bottom line is, the majority of the men involved in this pursuit have little to no understanding how to relate to women. They couldn't relate to women of their own culture and language in their own respective societies, much less with women who aren't. So the majority of these guys already are at a disadvantaged without having to listen and read all of the the stupidity and nonsense perpetuated by equally clueless men who came trekking the FSU MOB trail.

...He brought some gifts because he was expecting to spend days with her and her alone....

He brought gifts because he believed it increases his chances of getting laid.

...The question is how much did sleepycat assume without any basis, and how much did the woman encourage him.  We do not know.  The woman knew he was coming and surely did some encouragement by finding an apartment. It seems sleepycat never asked some key questions such as what she wished to do with him for each of the 10 days he was there, e. g., meet parents on Wednesday, take a trip to the country on Thursday, etc...

Gator, who the heck cares what who thought what or assumed what? These things shouldn't even be dissected like this because they shouldn't have gotten that far nor even happen in the first place. He noted her emails consisted of 12 words or less, if she was even around in the first place. How much promise does that show anyone?

Why do you, and *old timers like you*, insist men should find some 'golden meaning' behind these types of instances? Why omit this blatant reality then demonize the women after? It's no different than your average local woman who tries to discard the man by telling him to his face she no longer wants any part of him. But they don't listen and instead insist it can't possibly be true.

A good example is YoungBuck's experience. Instead of taking this for it's full value, he instead strategize and searched for a romantic scenario as though the woman wasn't showing him enough vibes and reason that she finds him unappealingly annoying be with. Then, like it always is, it is the men who blame the women as though there's something wrong with them.

I do not understand why men like you try to prevent other men to see these things for what they truly are?

[jone]

Gator, look, you got GQ out of his rocking chair and on a rant.  How about that?

What he says though, is basically true.  The average guy searching for his honey across the seas doesn't have a clue as to how to interact, what she is really signaling to him or what to do once he gets there.

That average guy who goes overseas is looking for a mismatched relationship.  In one way or another.  The successful guys who are on here have demonstrated that 1.)  They know what a good match for them is and 2.) How to present themselves once they arrive in the FSU.

Typically the gals that are on the MOB sites now (the ones that count, like Elena's) are either looking for someone quite sophisticated here in the West or have no sophistication themselves.  Many of the single moms are set in their lives and if, possibly, someone were to be able to provide a better life for them overseas, they might indulge in a relationship.  But most cannot afford to be wrong.

So we have left two standards:  1.  Is the gal who is there because she needs some extra cash and is willing to go on dates or talk to people online to get it.  These are the Pro-Daters and the out and out scammers.  The other standard: 2.  Is a woman who expects that a man coming to visit her is sophisticated enough to seek out her intent and desires ahead of time and not to waste her time or his if they don't match up. 

Those men who make a trip without ascertaining the projection of the relationship ahead of time are putting their resources into a game that they can't win.