Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[lordtiberius]

FatherTime,

First, I have a profound respect for your posts.  I have a tendency to blather.  So I will try to be brief.  Everything you say is true and I agree with it.  I just have a couple questions: is the best defense, a good offense?  Secondly, pretend you are immoral person by nature, but you see another thug terrorize an innocent person.  Even if you are smaller and weaker, don't you have a moral obligation to stop the terror?

This White House makes for very interesting times.  I don't think America is interested in solving its problems.  But I think the time is quickly coming where we have to.  That is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN until we elect leaders like yourself to govern instead of the bipartisan douches we have now.

What say you?

[lordtiberius]

Hit me with the clue bat in the Jimmy, but when did Crimea by plebiscite join Russia?  At least Ossetia voted for independence

[BillyB]

 a significant % of the Ukrainian people want Russia to intervene and do not like that there has been an illegal governmental takeover…


[size=78%]   [/size]

A significant amount of Ukrainians like Yanukovych's politics but they don't like him, especially when he began to use sniper tactics against the protesters. The Ukrainian government impeached him, unanimously if I'm not mistaken. It's pretty bad when members of your own party are against you. With that said, Yanukovych was legally dismissed by his government, not by a hostile illegal takeover that got almost all the news.

[justme100]

You are correct Crimea is begging Putin to take it and most people there think Putin is the better choice.

100% correct. Nobody is happy with Yanucovich, but he is the only bridge to legal solving of the problem now.

[justme100]

and reinstate Yanukovich as it's legal president.
/quote]
it will never happen. People hate Yanucovich in the whole country.

[justme100]

 but aren't you disappointed that Russia put in a Ukrainian president who robbed billions from the country? This is real money that could help and serve the people of Ukraine. If Yanukovich robbed half that much and gave half to west Ukraine to help people there have a better standard of living, I don't think we'd be in this situation.

again, people know that Yanucovich is a "dead body" in politics, and he will be thrown away by Putin as soon as he will accomplish his task.

[lordtiberius]

especially when he began to use sniper tactics against the protesters.

Were they his tactics?  Russia authorized a payment to Ukraine in the form of loan guarantees the day before Yanukovych ordered the snipers.  Follow the money

[justme100]

Border sea guard department in Balaklava, Sevastopol was attacked today by people in "unidentified" uniform.
Border guarders were politely proposed to leave the territory by sea on the boats  what they happily did.

[justme100]

People meet the illegal invaders of their territory

[BillyB]

again, people know that Yanucovich is a "dead body" in politics, and he will be thrown away by Putin as soon as he will accomplish his task.

Putin needs Yanukovych to show the world he is Ukraine's rightful ruler and they have the right to be there to reinstate him. People of Ukraine will reject Yanukovych when he comes back so he'll have to rule with an iron fist. Putin will get rid of him later but Yanukovych has to come back.


I don't know why mega rich rulers such as Gaddafi and Yanukovych want to hold onto power so long. They could retire in style, tour the world and enjoy life but they don't want to give up their power.

[fathertime]

I don't know why mega rich rulers such as Gaddafi and Yanukovych want to hold onto power so long. They could retire in style, tour the world and enjoy life but they don't want to give up their power.

Ha!  I agree with that one BillyB...I think if it were you or me that is what we would be doing, but leaders become leaders by having a different type of personality and I guess that is what makes them want to hold onto their leadership roles for life!


Fathertime!

[The Natural]

I don't know why mega rich rulers such as Gaddafi and Yanukovych want to hold onto power so long. They could retire in style, tour the world and enjoy life but they don't want to give up their power.

Gaddafi was, unlike Janukovich, not elected. Not a good man by any standards, but he held the tribal country of Libya together somewhat and made Libya the country with the best standard of living on the African continent. Not any more. We in the west used the now instrument of regime change, NATO, to bomb the country back to the stone age. My own country of Norway dropped 10% of the bombs. It's an understatement to say I'm not proud of that!
 
What's the thinking however behind the notion of Janukovich retiring less than a year before the next election? What kind of idiotic reading of what democracy means is it to support armed revolt of an elected president? Why couldn't they wait until the election and vote in the candidates who got a majority of the votes?

[fathertime]

FatherTime,

First, I have a profound respect for your posts.  I have a tendency to blather.  So I will try to be brief.  Everything you say is true and I agree with it.  I just have a couple questions: is the best defense, a good offense?  Secondly, pretend you are immoral person by nature, but you see another thug terrorize an innocent person.  Even if you are smaller and weaker, don't you have a moral obligation to stop the terror?

This White House makes for very interesting times.  I don't think America is interested in solving its problems.  But I think the time is quickly coming where we have to.  That is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN until we elect leaders like yourself to govern instead of the bipartisan douches we have now.

What say you?

Thanks LT, your opinion appears balanced to me and you are raising valid points which are tough to address.
I think it always comes down to degree.  Sometimes it is in our urgent interests to protect and then I’m for it (Gulf War I).  Other times the atrocities are so great that we morally have to get involved, other times (like I see it in this case), the situation is too muddled and the killing has been minimal (to this point) so I don’t see reason for us to involve ourselves. 
I probably was mistaken earlier when I said we (the US) shouldn't comment, but I was rather nauseated by the manner in which our representatives like Kerry have commented.  I did not find Obama’s comments to be particularly offensive. I agree with  C. Krauthammer, that Obama's statement was on the weak side, but I don't agree with him that it should have been more 'muscular'. or that we should send frigates to region as the posturing would have been pointless. 


From what I’ve gathered (correct me if I’m wrong), Ukraine has been drawn up as a whole country when in fact historically it was separate pieces.  From the outside looking in, it would appear to me that a ‘two state solution’ could be feasible at least from that standpoint.  I am curious if that is being seriously discussed and what the native Ukrainians think of such a thing.  I’ve heard people say, and read people write that “Ukraine will never be divided”, but if indeed the people are so split as it appears they are and if there is no great unifier, then what is the harm of permitting Russia to have it’s warm water ports in the East and allow western Ukraine to separate?   
Fathertime!     

[krimster2]

Wait, didn't we already see this movie?  What was the name?  OH yeah!  "Sudetenland"
Checkout the review here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland

Looks like they even used the same extras from the Sudeten German Free Corps in Simpheropol
Now that you know who Putin is, wake the Fu*k up everybody!






 

[SteveOR]

I don't know why mega rich rulers such as Gaddafi and Yanukovych want to hold onto power so long. They could retire in style, tour the world and enjoy life but they don't want to give up their power.

From the movie "The Matrix":


"What do all men with power want?  More power."

[lordtiberius]

I think it is important to find and recognize points of agreement when possible.  We do agree that:

1) We should do all that is necessary to save lives and advance the cause of peace.

2) When we do have an urgent national interest threatened like Gulf War I, then we should intervene.

3) The numbers of dead have been small in comparison to other wars.

4) Ukraine's history is one of division.

5) If Ukraine can be partitioned in the cause of peace, then why not?

6) BHO cannot be trusted and is a greater or equal threat than V.V. Putin?

If we do agree on point 6, what then should be our policy?

[justme100]

The Ukrainian government impeached him, unanimously if I'm not mistaken. It's pretty bad when members of your own party are against you. With that said, Yanukovych was legally dismissed by his government, not by a hostile illegal takeover that got almost all the news.

There was no impeachement!

[jone]

JustMe, take this to its logical conclusion:

Ukraine has a standing army of 186,000.  You expect them, now in control of the people you call the 'Clowns' to lay down because the Russian army is coming?

Ukraine will soon be in a war.  And attitudes like yours and like the ones promoted by the 'Clowns' are what is causing it. 

Whatever your politics are (and I don't particularly care) I am offended by the extremism that you represent.  How many women and children must die for your point of view?  You have readily said that you have no money, not even enough for a television set, yet you would seek the intervention of your Russian friends to 'restore order' and live in the destitute society that we have all come to know as Ukraine.

At least the other guys are trying to improve your lot.  So, my salute to you is to position the sword just at the precise angle to make it very easy for you TO FALL ON IT.

[justme100]

You have readily said that you have no money, not even enough for a television set

I;m shocked, can you show when and where I told this? ))
I don't have TV because we just threw it away as unnecessary component in the century of Internet, don't twist my words.
As to the standing army of Ukraine, I won't even comment it. I go to the headquarters of the Ukrainian Naval forces for many years every day, except Saturday and Sunday...to work.So believe me, I know what  Ukrainian army is

[The Natural]

I am offended by the extremism that you represent.

 
 

So, my salute to you is to position the sword just at the precise angle to make it very easy for you TO FALL ON IT.

Oh, what a gentleman you are.

[jone]

Yes, and you quote from www.Kerch.com.ua which shows on its masthead a Hammer and Sickle.

You dismiss the armed forces of Ukraine:  'Oh, Russia is coming to save us and we'll be home in time for Kasha.'

       

I lived in Southern Ukraine this summer.  I met many people like you.  You are an extremist. 

I am curious.  Why exactly are you on this site?  Could you enlighten us?

As I said.  You wish for intervention.  It will cause significant bloodshed.  You are as bad or worse than the people you castigate.  Go ahead.  Fall on the sword.

[lordtiberius]

Completely agree with Jay.

Jay H what should the West do?

[pokerintherear]

Now that you know who Putin is, wake the Fu*k up everybody!/quote]

Bride hunters and slayers seem to be naive. This is part of the personality.

[lordtiberius]

 
 
Oh, what a gentleman you are.

And you are qualified to judge that how?

[justme100]

I lived in Southern Ukraine this summer.  I met many people like you.  You are an extremist. 

Yes, there are a lot of us here. And we will never let fascists come to our land again.