Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[jone]

Roy, you have no idea what you're quoting, do you?  Yes, we read this the last time you entered it on here trying to show how important such thinking was.  Your rag you are quoting from is a sensationalist piece that shows up from time to time in the US as having absurd stories.  I remember one about more people believing in aliens than Christianity.  Everything this guy writes is carefully couched to incite riots.  And you fall for him, hook, line and sinker.  Come on, get a grip.

Please show me which members of the Rada were not there two months ago and represent this ultra nationalistic bent?

I would like names and party affiliations.   

Members of the Rada who ousted Yanukovych, to a person, said that the reason he was ousted was because he was corrupt.  Those were the people FROM HIS OWN PARTY!

Again, I would like to solicit (legitimate) comments about which legislators represent the far right.

Absent the Russian boot, now, I contend that the government is trying, successfully, to form a unity government.

[Misha]

2.  We have no Russian troops in Crimea / They are local self defense troops

 


I was reading earlier this morning a Russian-language site that was doing the analysis of the photos coming out of Crimea analyzing the vehicles and the guns to show how they all came from the Russian army. Somehow we are to believe that these local militias somehow had access to the Russian guns, Russian military trucks, Russian sniper rifles, and yet they are not Russian.... Only those who are swallowing the Russian propaganda news reporting hook, line and sinker will believe this... If I find the link, I will post it later.

[The Natural]

Roy, you have no idea what you're quoting, do you?  Yes, we read this the last time you entered it on here trying to show how important such thinking was.  Your rag you are quoting from is a sensationalist piece that shows up from time to time in the US as having absurd stories. 

Well, that is the problem you see. When a person has formed his opinion and ask for the opposing viewpoint, he dismiss it because he heard this or that about the source. So it really doesn't matter what is brought forward. Try clicking on the links of the article if you don't like the guy who wrote it. But they're probably also just sensationalist pieces.
 
 

[Voyager36]

Ade, you are normally my comrade-in-arms but this time I'll have to dissent a bit.
 
First, I totally agree with the wrmongering silly boys. It is way over the top. Also agree that escalating this conflict into a war will produce no winners.

Yep, and some folks here would like the US Air Force to bring "Western values" to the citizens of Crimea at the business end of a bomb. 
 

You want to see propaganda? This morning my wife was talking to her sister in Kharkiv and she started laughing. I asked her and she said that on Russian news Putin claims the troops in Crimea are basically Ukrainian self-defense troops protecting themselves from hordes of Nazis. Then I get this link in my email.

Putin says he will protect Russians in Ukraine

Not sure exactly what Putin's statement was, but I'll tell you what the people in Crimea think. They've been watching armed gangs set fires & shoot at police in Kiev. They've seen a democratically elected President turned out by an angry mob. They've watched on TV as another armed mob assaulted and handcuffed a Governor from the opposing party in the name of "democracy".
They simply do not want nationalist rioters & vigilantes bring violence & chaos to Crimea.

My sincerest hope however, is that you do not suffer any loss during these trying times.

Thanks for that at least Muzh
You've seen the footage on TV of the military base south of Simferopol that's been been surrounded? My M.I.L. literally lives right across the road from it. She has armed men outside her garden gate.
So yes, this hits close to home.
 
 

You are absolutely correct that in the middle there are ethnic Russians and
Ukrainians that all they want is peace.

No, that's not only what they want. The vast majority of Russian speaking people of Crimea do not want to be governed by another corrupt government in Kiev, nor do they want a Ukrainian nationalist government eroding their rights. They don't want to freeze this winter because of antagonism against Russia drives up gas prices. (or have them cut off)

It is easy to dispel reality by claiming propaganda. As a thinking and rational man, I put you above that.

Accusation could be made on both sides, no?
 

You seem to be getting a real high from the level of testosterone being spewed by this leader. Says a lot about your mental disposition rather than your intellect. However, based on your level of discussion you come out as a lightweight similar to a highschool girl having a crush on the varsity captain so anything else you say from now on will be taken accordingly. 

So, if you can't base an argument on facts, bring out the ad hominem attacks?   
 
 

[dogspot]

Roy, you have no idea what you're quoting, do you?  Yes, we read this the last time you entered it on here trying to show how important such thinking was.  Your rag you are quoting from is a sensationalist piece that shows up from time to time in the US as having absurd stories.  I remember one about more people believing in aliens than Christianity.  Everything this guy writes is carefully couched to incite riots.  And you fall for him, hook, line and sinker.  Come on, get a grip.

Please show me which members of the Rada were not there two months ago and represent this ultra nationalistic bent?

I would like names and party affiliations.   

Members of the Rada who ousted Yanukovych, to a person, said that the reason he was ousted was because he was corrupt.  Those were the people FROM HIS OWN PARTY!

Again, I would like to solicit (legitimate) comments about which legislators represent the far right.

Absent the Russian boot, now, I contend that the government is trying, successfully, to form a unity government.

You seemed to have skipped over my post

Olen Tyahnybok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok

Are you familiar with the Svoboda party?

Here is an interesting article about some of the players in Ukraine's new government.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/03/ukraine-government_n_4889063.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

[Voyager36]

I guess it really boils down to the fact that many Russians are comfortable with the level of corruption/oppresion that developed in the Soviet Union. Where as most Ukrainians I have talked to want something more like the freedoms available in the west.

Which part of Ukraine are these Ukrainians from Gylden?
And yet the Ukrainian governments turned out to be just as corrupt too.
Or is the prosecution of (acting) President Turchynov's partner - former Prime Minister Pavlo Lazarenko for the theft of $200 million now considered to be a political prosecution? 

[justme100]

Olen Tyahnybok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok

cool guy who is not ashamed to say aloud on camera that he hates all vetarans from the Second World War

[The Natural]

You seemed to have skipped over my post

Well, the name Olen Tyahnybok was also on my link but was harshly dismissed.....
 
I just saw a TV program here, they said they were trying to see the conflict from the Russian viewpoint. Wasn't very effective in my opinion, but the last few minutes was quite interesting. This female reporter from Radio Denmark followed a group of nice young gentlemen from Right Sector. They broke into a building, it was said to be the second residency of Janukovich. She asked if they really could break into this place. The gentleman replied they didn't break in as they had the approval from the new government. They showed her the recruitment office, so it's apparently a gentlemansclub that is growing every day. But they were not allowed to talk about the partys plans for the future.

 

[justme100]

Well, the name Olen Tyahnybok

Guys, he is Oleg, not Olen...although very correct typo olen translates as deer from russian

[Voyager36]

I was reading earlier this morning a Russian-language site that was doing the analysis of the photos coming out of Crimea analyzing the vehicles and the guns to show how they all came from the Russian army. Somehow we are to believe that these local militias somehow had access to the Russian guns, Russian military trucks, Russian sniper rifles, and yet they are not Russian....

I have no doubt that the Russia is supplying pro-Russian forces just as Western interests are likely supplying anti-Russian forces in Kiev. There are certainly a number of Crimea residents who don't support the revolutionaries in Kiev, and are willing to get out in the streets to assert control. (From what I've seen)
Frankly it seems like both side's claims (Putin - "no Russian troops in Crimea streets", Kerry "Russian military has invaded Crimea") are exaggerated for maximum spin effect.

[jone]

Olen Tyahnybok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok

Are you familiar with the Svoboda party?

Here is an interesting article about some of the players in Ukraine's new government.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/03/ukraine-government_n_4889063.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

NO, DS, I just hadn't had time to respond to it yet.

*******************************************************************

Of course I am, DS.

Did you read the whole article in the HP? 

It goes on to say that Oleg is balanced out with people on the other side.  He has been a player in Ukrainian politics for the past six years.  My particular interest from the article was in the young journalist gal, Tetyana Chernovil.   It is her job to establish standards for anti-corruption.  After getting beaten up for standing for what she believes, I have a good feeling that she will go far in her task.

I have a striking suspicion that when everything is said and done, the people who are making the most noise on the far right will be found to be on the Russian payroll.   Like the columns of young kids in Nazi uniforms.  I would bet that someone is paying them a substantial amount of money to do that.  Cui bono?  (Who gains?)  The Russians do, of course.  So who would you guess is paying them to march around?

If everyone were to ignore the hype and back off from the scare images, you would get a clear picture of what is really happening in Ukraine.  Russia is worried that it will have another Poland on its hands.  The simple truth is that Poland now has a GDP of substance and the Polish people are seeing a standard of living that they never imagined only twenty years ago.

The problem with Russia right now, is absent the lies and scare tactics, they can't sell their version of success anymore when common Ukrainians can see what happened to other Eastern European countries that escaped the Russian boot.

It is my great hope that some day Russia, itself, will eliminate the corruption that is part and parcel to its economy.  Those of us who have done business there realize true progress will only be made when graft and corruption do not influence every day life.

I watched, with affection, the Sochi Olympics.  Most often I found myself rooting for Eastern European countries.  But even as I was watching, I acknowledged the rotten methods by which contracts were handed out and oligarchs lined their pockets.  That is the great dichotomy.  It cannot go on forever. 

I would welcome a balance of power between Russia and the United States.  But I fear that Russia's bear has lost its teeth as a result of corruption.  It is a slippery slope and now, soon, the bill comes due.

[dogspot]

Jone,

Here is a very informative article about Svoboda. As of November 2012 the party had 37 Rada representatives.

http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2012-11-28/electoral-success-svoboda-party-consequences-ukrainian-politics

[JayH]

, Kerry "Russian military has invaded Crimea") are exaggerated for maximum spin effect.

You are kidding--right?  How ridiculous can you possibly be?  You think it took the US to fabricate the invasion?
Too ridiculous to consider. It is rubbish like you seek to peddle in some anti US nonsense that only serves to confuse the issues here.
Russia invaded Ukraine-- is there any part of that not clear to you?
They have no business invadaing a foreign country.FULL STOP

[Misha]

Frankly it seems like both side's claims (Putin - "no Russian troops in Crimea streets", Kerry "Russian military has invaded Crimea") are exaggerated for maximum spin effect.

Here is the analysis that I mentioned: [size=78%]http://www.newtimes.ru/articles/detail/79932[/size]


Of course, you can't read Russian, but you can see Russian military vehicles with Russian license plates and the weaponry that is Russian military equipment  Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the one that is correct, and in this case it would be that the Russian military vehicles and Russian military equipment are being used by Russian soldiers who are in Crimea...

[JayH]

Diverting any discussion to an extremely small minority is precisely how Moscow has been attempting to paint Ukraine.

In Moscow-- they are still wondering how  200 gay nazis demonstrating could overthrow the government and install one to their liking. :)not!

[dogspot]

Did you read the whole article in the HP? 

It goes on to say that Oleg is balanced out with people on the other side.  He has been a player in Ukrainian politics for the past six years.  My particular interest from the article was in the young journalist gal, Tetyana Chernovil.   It is her job to establish standards for anti-corruption.  After getting beaten up for standing for what she believes, I have a good feeling that she will go far in her task.

Yeah, I read the article but there isn't anything that says balanced. Here's the segment from the HP article:

"Oleh Tyahnybok is the man who most worries the West. He is the leader of Svoboda, and now the People's Deputy of the new Ukrainian government. Svoboda are a extreme far-right party, with elements of fascism and anti-semitism. Its previous name, the Social-National Party of Ukraine, is a bit of a give-away. Svoboda Party has six major cabinet ministries in the government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Tyahinybok has given speeches in the past deriding "kikes" and in 2005 wrote a letter to the president calling for an investigation into "organised Jewry and criminality in Ukraine". Svoboda is part of an alliance of European neo-fascists, the Alliance of European National Movements, which includes France's National Front, the British National Party and Hungary's Jobbik."

Anyway, I hope I've helped answer your question.

[jone]

Jone,

Here is a very informative article about Svoboda. As of November 2012 the party had 37 Rada representatives.

http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2012-11-28/electoral-success-svoboda-party-consequences-ukrainian-politics

Yeah, I had read this or others like it back when they went through the last election cycle.  Most people thought at the time that it was a reflection of the pushback to Yanukovych. 

By the way, any of you read Mendy's latest? 

He really has a great insight into what is going on in the Russian political world.

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/

[The Natural]

Guys, he is Oleg, not Olen...although very correct typo olen translates as deer from russian

I'll just call him Helge then 
 
Oleg (Russian: Олег), Oleh (Ukrainian: Олег), or Aleh (Belarusian: Алег) is a Slavic given name. It derives from the Old Norse Helgi (Helge), meaning "holy", "sacred", or "blessed". The feminine equivalent is Olga.

[justme100]

Yeah, I had read this or others like it back when they went through the last election cycle.  Most people thought at the time that it was a reflection of the pushback to Yanukovych. 

By the way, any of you read Mendy's latest? 

He really has a great insight into what is going on in the Russian political world.

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/

Why the photos from some other places are signed as Sevastopol?

[jone]

Yeah, I read the article but there isn't anything that says balanced. Here's the segment from the HP article:

"Oleh Tyahnybok is the man who most worries the West. He is the leader of Svoboda, and now the People's Deputy of the new Ukrainian government. Svoboda are a extreme far-right party, with elements of fascism and anti-semitism. Its previous name, the Social-National Party of Ukraine, is a bit of a give-away. Svoboda Party has six major cabinet ministries in the government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Tyahinybok has given speeches in the past deriding "kikes" and in 2005 wrote a letter to the president calling for an investigation into "organised Jewry and criminality in Ukraine". Svoboda is part of an alliance of European neo-fascists, the Alliance of European National Movements, which includes France's National Front, the British National Party and Hungary's Jobbik."

Anyway, I hope I've helped answer your question.

You are always a source of wisdom, DS.

Balanced?  Yes, after your quote it goes on and gives balance to the article, but less sensationalized.

There is a Muslim and a Jew also as people with important posts.  Personally, I can't stand Tyahnybok's politics.  But his party is not the party in control.  It is my belief that before the next election happens (May 25th? - Maybe later?) that there will be a leader from the ashes of the Party of Regions that will be able to capture a substantial portion of the vote.  That is, of course, if the Russian heritage areas are still part of Ukraine.

[jone]

Why don't you PM him, JustMe? 

Mendy is a member here.

Follow up:  I just looked the pictures.  Very few could be construed as not in Crimea.  That picture of Lenin is certainly in Yalta.  That picture of Aksenov looks to be real.  Mendy is quoting from the All Crimea Network.

[dogspot]

I'll just call him Helge then 
 
Oleg (Russian: Олег), Oleh (Ukrainian: Олег), or Aleh (Belarusian: Алег) is a Slavic given name. It derives from the Old Norse Helgi (Helge), meaning "holy", "sacred", or "blessed". The feminine equivalent is Olga.

I'll just call him Dick. In English this is short for Richard...but its can be used as a substitute for any name really.

[JayH]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26442381

The Russian military says it has test-fired an intercontinental ballistic missile, as tension continues over Ukraine's Crimea region.

And Russia is not seeking to provoke ? LOL

[The Natural]

I'll just call him Dick. In English this is short for Richard...but its can be used as a substitute for any name really.

In the words of Madonna: "Dick? What an interesting name". 

[justme100]

  Mendy is quoting from the All Crimea Network.

I see. The photos signed as Sevastopol are not from Sevastopol.Looks more like Simferopol.