Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[justme100]

justme100 & Brillynt,

                                  You claim the Russians are doing exactly as the protestors did in Kiev.

Did I miss something ?

Have Kiev protestors invaded part of Russia and blocked entrance to one of the Russian regions ?

No, not in this sense. What i mean is illegal action, both from new "clowns" and Russia. Just one little difference. Russia's illegal actions are supported and welcomed by majority of population, clown's are not.

[cc3]

No, not in this sense. What i mean is illegal action, both from new "clowns" and Russia. Just one little difference. Russia's illegal actions are supported and welcomed by majority of population, clown's are not.

As a good pro-Russian, you should change the country symbol under your avatar from the Blue/Gold of Ukraine to the tri-color of Russia. You are definitely not a Ukrainian patriot.

[Hammer2722]

As a good pro-Russian, you should change the country symbol under your avatar from the Blue/Gold of Ukraine to the tri-color of Russia. You are definitely not a Ukrainian patriot.

+100

[krimster2]

It was a cool Autumn morning in 1920 when 3 US warships arrived in Sevastopol, their mission to help protect “White Russians”, i.e. those loyal to the previous Russian government and not the new Bolshevik led government, and allow them to flee to safety to neighboring Istanbul.  The flotilla of small ships and boats resembled the evacuation of Dunkirk some 20 years later, and thanks to the efforts of the US Navy many thousands of Russian lives were spared.

Many of those who were not so fortunate as to depart before the flotilla left, ended up in one of the mass graves the Bolsheviks left behind in Crimea.  It’s estimated that 50,000 White Russians (soldiers, their families, and civilians) were killed in Crimea, but hey, who’s counting?

But the jobs of these 3 ships weren’t finished with the successful evacuation of Sevastopol.  The USS Whipple continued her evacuation missions elsewhere in the Black Sea, and for 18 months in 1921–22, during a prolonged drought in Russia and resulting potato famine, the Gilmer and Fox escorted American grain ships to Russian Black Sea ports.

This little piece of history is of course not mentioned in any Russian history book, it doesn’t fit in with the official narrative.  It is to borrow a popular phrase “an inconvenient truth”.

So dear reader, we have “A Tale of Two Cities”, one is Moscow and one is Washington, one murdered 50,000 people in Crimea and 10 years later created an artificial famine that resulted in the deaths of millions of people throughout Ukraine, and the other helped rescue tens of thousands of Russians and sent food to stricken areas.  Dear reader, let us now look today at Sevastopol, the magnificent city “worthy of worship(warships?) and ask it’s inhabitants, which of the two cities would you like to friend on Facebook?  The answer of course is easily predictable.

The real question is why?         

[justme100]

As a good pro-Russian, you should change the country symbol under your avatar from the Blue/Gold of Ukraine to the tri-color of Russia. You are definitely not a Ukrainian patriot.

What I SHOULD do is stated in the legal code, everything else is only up to me to decide

[jone]

Oh, JustMe,

You think "New Clowns" are not supported by certain areas of the country? 

What if the New Clowns decided that they wanted help and protection in areas where they controlled majority of the population, from, say, the Panzer divisions of Germany? 

You slide down a slippery slope.  Keep in mind that Yanukovych never achieved a majority in his history in power.  In the 2012 elections, his party (what we call 'The Party of Regions'  only received 34% of the vote.

Until you see what all of us see, that this Russian nationalism you espouse, is taking you to a conclusion you absolutely will not like, you will never seek what is so desperately needed in your country:  A unity government made up of all parties.

Please keep in mind that the spark that lit the fire was Russia trying to influencing trade agreements with the European Union that your country had previously committed to sign. 

Be a true patriot to you country and bring everyone together.  I could care less who is in power in your country.  I love many ethnic Russian people.  Many more than my Ukrainian nationalist friends.  I do business in Russia and have many, many friends there.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU, THAT WITHOUT A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT TOLERATE CORRUPTION, UKRAINE HAS NO CHANCE AND THERE WILL BE MORE BLOODSHED.  BECAUSE NO MATTER WHO IS IN POWER, THE CYCLE WILL REPEAT. 

[Chicagoguy]

Just read more Russian troops arriving at naval base. I am thinking that so soon after a wonderful Olympics, that ran so smoothly and really showed off Russia to the world, the 50 billion $ will be wasted. Opinions will be changing if Putin is not careful. Oh well, easy come, easy go.

[Noch1]

No, not in this sense. What i mean is illegal action, both from new "clowns" and Russia. Just one little difference. Russia's illegal actions are supported and welcomed by majority of population, clown's are not.

Crimea is still part of Ukraine, would not make it the majority of the country only there area.

[calmissile]

As a good pro-Russian, you should change the country symbol under your avatar from the Blue/Gold of Ukraine to the tri-color of Russia. You are definitely not a Ukrainian patriot.

+100

[steveboy]

How is it so many people here who do not even live in Ukraine other than maybe they are married to a Ukrainian women, make the occasional trip to Ukraine once in a blue moon, have no direct contact with many Ukrainians or Russians living in Ukraine? They do not speak Russian or Ukrainian ,but know every thing about the situation???

[steveboy]

Besides Jone it seems , I forgot to add 

[krimster2]

Dude,
   Not everyone fits that description, I lived in Sevastopol 3 years, operated a busineses there and bought and sold real estate there as well and was socially active with a broad spectrum of people.  The people who were the most ignorant were the locals, utterly brainwashed by Russian TV and only able to "parrot" what was on TV the night before.  Then I left, came back to the USA, and found that people here did the same with Fox "News"(ha,ha).  What's happening now was easily predictable, I don't know what's the worst part, the upcoming economic shock doctrine, or just the 'kakashka" that the people there have always lived in and will likely always live in until the Sun supernova's one day.

[Noch1]

How is it so many people here who do not even live in Ukraine other than maybe they are married to a Ukrainian women, make the occasional trip to Ukraine once in a blue moon, have no direct contact with many Ukrainians or Russians living in Ukraine? They do not speak Russian or Ukrainian ,but know every thing about the situation???

I suspect a few things would explain this, first off we can read
Second my wife is from there and currently in Country. So asking her and friends perspective.
I also I have friends who live in the west, central and southern Ukraine. So I ask their opinions.
I also have a few friends in Russia, and my RUssian teacher here is from Russia, so I ask her and her
families opinion back home. I am sure many could tell the same story.
All of that said, I never out right said anything as fact, Sometimes my opinion.
Sometimes a guess based on what I know. I suspect nobody knows exactly what is going to happen.
even you.

Most here seem to be open to discussion on the topic. Some are hard and fast as to what they think is
happening, what should happen. To me it is simple, if you are not happy in Ukraine, Russia is fast tracking
visa's, get one and head to Russia, problem solved.

[fathertime]

Excellent analysis.
 
Keep in mind that there is the Budapest Memorandum still hanging over Putin's head. Oh, BTW. He finally said something, like, Ukraine needs some money, blah, blah, blah.
 
Back to Hungary, The US, Russia, England and France agreed to forever respect Ukraine's territorial integrity and to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council. Wiki
 
With that said, Russia is VIOLATING the terms of the agreement which puts it periliously close to being 'persuaded' to desist, per their OWN agreement.
 
THIS, Fathertime, is why we do NOT STFU. That is, unless you are the type of person who welches on your word.
 
What say you?
 
Personally, I hate the idea of the US sending troops there. The US should work laboriously with the Ukrainian authorities to find a non-violent resolution. In addition, ignore the ignorant rants from provocateurs and secure their territorial integrity by proposing an all-inclusive government.
 
Finally, any Russian who incites sedition should be deported. No questions asked.

Well Muzh, I can see your point.


If I gathered the information correctly, as part of the Soviet Union, Ukraine had 1000's of nuclear weapons.  The western nations and the Russians wanted to procure them obviously.  Ukraine decided to give them up in exchange for permanent protection against invasion from a nuclear armed nation. 
  I don't know if I understand the basics of the agreement, but if I do have it right I have some comments.


1.  We (the US) were negotiating with what we saw as a gun to our head.  I mean we REALLY didn't want Ukraine to have all those nuclear weapons, that just would be unacceptable at that point in time.  At the time of the breakup, Russia should have just taken them back home, if that was possible. 
2.  In an attempt to understand Russia's position, they aren't going to permit the loss  or complete control of those warm weather ports in Crimea. 
3.  Our representatives are such hypocrites  when it comes to sovereignty I become nauseated thinking about it.  I resent the didactic and absolute tone I constantly hear from our hypocrite representatives.     
4. Sure ok, I am convinced refer it to the security council and we can act in a group.  No way our troops should be involved though. 


5.  I'd like to hear responses to the points I have made.  I am no expert on this part of world, so the position I've taken is not solidified at this point.


Fathertime!

[jone]

It was a cool Autumn morning in 1920 when 3 US warships arrived in Sevastopol, their mission to help protect “White Russians”, i.e. those loyal to the previous Russian government and not the new Bolshevik led government, and allow them to flee to safety to neighboring Istanbul.  The flotilla of small ships and boats resembled the evacuation of Dunkirk some 20 years later, and thanks to the efforts of the US Navy many thousands of Russian lives were spared.

Many of those who were not so fortunate as to depart before the flotilla left, ended up in one of the mass graves the Bolsheviks left behind in Crimea.  It’s estimated that 50,000 White Russians (soldiers, their families, and civilians) were killed in Crimea, but hey, who’s counting?

But the jobs of these 3 ships weren’t finished with the successful evacuation of Sevastopol.  The USS Whipple continued her evacuation missions elsewhere in the Black Sea, and for 18 months in 1921–22, during a prolonged drought in Russia and resulting potato famine, the Gilmer and Fox escorted American grain ships to Russian Black Sea ports.

This little piece of history is of course not mentioned in any Russian history book, it doesn’t fit in with the official narrative.  It is to borrow a popular phrase “an inconvenient truth”.

So dear reader, we have “A Tale of Two Cities”, one is Moscow and one is Washington, one murdered 50,000 people in Crimea and 10 years later created an artificial famine that resulted in the deaths of millions of people throughout Ukraine, and the other helped rescue tens of thousands of Russians and sent food to stricken areas.  Dear reader, let us now look today at Sevastopol, the magnificent city “worthy of worship(warships?) and ask it’s inhabitants, which of the two cities would you like to friend on Facebook?  The answer of course is easily predictable.

The real question is why?         

To reflect on the enlightening above post, I would like to share a post off of my FaceBook page regarding this historical incident:

Here in Nikolaev (Mykolaiv)

I thought it might be fun to share a little Red Army history. Near the end of the Russian Civil War, the Red Army was advancing over the White Army. The year was probably early 1920. The White Army was in disarray and escaping through Southern Ukraine. Inevitably, the White Army, under the command of Wrangel evacuated over the Black Sea in November of 1920.

Attached are a couple of photos of a monument acknowledging this achievement by the Red Army. Dr. Ignious Noramus was kind enough to translate the plaque which he spent long hours evaluating.

одной из самых блестящих страниц в истории красной армии является та полная решительная и замечательно быстря победа которая одержана нами над врангелем - Ленина

Translation:

One of the most brilliant pages in the history of the Red Army is the one full of the decisive and remarkably quick victory that was won over Wrangel - Lenin



Above is my dog Iggy (whom we call Iggy Noramus) at the monument in Mykolaiv.

[krimster2]

regrettably, the many mass graves lack any kind monument, though they are monumental

from Abraham

In 1991 the descendents  of cossacks and serfs brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that everyone no matter their nationality or faith is created equal in this new nation.

now we are engaged in a great struggle, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure

We have met on a great mass-grave of a previous struggle. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives in Kyiv that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.

The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

also, left out sources for previous post
sources:
http://destroyerhistory.org/flushdeck/blackseafleet/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

[JayH]

aha, exactly the same they did in Kiev several days ago.So, why such a surprised face now?)Or they hold sole property rights on the methods like this?

Exactly right. 

It is probably more dissappointing than annoying to see that you have no appreciation for those who lost their lives in the desire to remove an extremely corrupt government who who in the process of completely destroying the lives of all Ukrainians-- the selfish actions of the few in the Crimea are entirely self-serving.
The most likely initial motivation was to save their own skins from prosecution for the murders(by Crimean based  Berkut) in Kiev.Throw in a sensisitve local issue-- Russian territorial aspirations,Putins ego  and you have the created crisis.
The Russians will have egg on their face after this-- no matter what happens.
I would also suggest--that this will prove the catalyst for what will be the break up of Russia into independent states-- the complete end of what was the Soviet Union.That will be Putins legacy.

[JayH]

Ukraine official: Russia has launched 'armed invasion' in Crimea
Published February 28, 2014FoxNews.com

Russian troops moved into Crimea Friday, U.S. officials told Fox News, prompting Ukraine to accuse Russia of an "armed invasion."

At the White House, President Obama said the U.S. government is "deeply concerned" by reports of Russian "military movements" and warned any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty would be "deeply destabilizing."

"There will be costs" for any military intervention, he said, without specifying what those costs might be.

U.S. officials told Fox News they see “evidence of air and maritime movement into and out of Crimea by Russian forces” although the Pentagon declined to officially "characterize" the movement.

Agence France Press quoted a top Ukranian official as saying Russian aircraft carrying nearly 2,000 suspected troops have landed at a military air base near the regional capital of the restive Crimean peninsula.

"Thirteen Russian aircraft landed at the airport of Gvardeyskoye (near Simferopol) with 150 people in each one," Sergiy Kunitsyn, the Ukrainian president's special representative in Crimea, told the local ATR television channel, according to AFP. He accused Russia of an "armed invasion."

The new developments prompted Ukraine to accuse Russia of a "military invasion and occupation" -- a claim that brought an alarming new dimension to the crisis.

Russia kept silent on claims of military intervention, even as it maintained its hard-line stance on protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, a peninsula of Ukraine on the northern coast of the Black Sea.

A spokesman for the Ukrainian border service said eight Russian transport planes have landed in Crimea with unknown cargo.

Serhiy Astakhov told The Associated Press that the Il-76 planes arrived unexpectedly Friday and were given permission to land, one after the other, at Gvardeiskoye air base, north of the regional capital, Simferopol.

Astakhov said the people in the planes refused to identify themselves and waved off customs officials, saying they didn't require their services.

Earlier in the day, Russian armored vehicles rumbled across Crimea and reports surfaced of troops being deployed at airports and a coast guard base – signs of a more heavy-handed approach to the crisis from Moscow.

Ukraine's U.N. ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev told the U.N. Security Council that Russian military helicopters and transport planes are entering his country, that neither major airport in Ukraine is under national control and that the main airport was "captured by Russian armed forces."

He claimed 11 Russian military helicopters had been brought in along with M-24 military transport planes.

Armed gunmen took control of the two main airports in Crimea Friday. However, Russia has so far been silent on the claims of military involvement. No violence was reported at the civilian airport in Crimea's capital of Simferopol or at the military airport in the Black Sea port of Sevastopol, also part of Crimea. At the Simferopol airport, a man claiming to speak for the camouflage-clad forces patrolling the airport described them as Crimean militiamen.





Reuters and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

[JayH]

Nowhere is that feeling more intense than in Crimea, the last big bastion of opposition to the new political leadership. And Ukraine suspects Russia of fomenting tension in the autonomous region that might escalate into a bid for separation by its Russian majority.
"We still have a chance to stop the negative developments and separatism," Sergeyev said.
Sergeyev accused Russia of violating its military agreement by blocking Ukrainian security forces, including its border guards and police, in the region.
"This group is making a serious mistake challenging our territorial integrity," he said.
But Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaliy Churkin, compared the reports of Russian troops taking charge of positions on the ground to rumors that "are always not true."
"We are acting within the framework of our agreement," he said.
Even so, U.S. military commanders and intelligence agencies were scrambling Friday to determine what was needed to get a better picture of Russian movements.
That included an assessment of intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance needs, a senior U.S. official told CNN.
The U.S. State Department warned Americans to defer all non-essential travel to Ukraine, particularly the Crimea region, "due to the potential for instability following the departure of former President Yanukovych and the establishment of a new government."
Meanwhile, Obama is considering not attending the G8 Summit in Sochi, Russia, in June, if Russian troops remain in the Ukraine, a senior administration official familiar with the discussions told CNN.
Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity.

[lordtiberius]

Fathertime,

I thought of several ways to respond to you.  I of course wanted to be eloquent but brief.  I think at this point the US can do a lot to save lives in the cause of peace and freedom.  We have to be involved.  Now our team in Washington may not be up to the diplomatic challenge but we have to try.  Do you agree?

[lordtiberius]

Russian is no longer an official language in Ukraine.  Not really a first priority in my book.  There are Nazis in Ukraine.  Identify and watch them but to call those who disagree with you Nazis?

Classy

[Slumba]

I thought of several ways to respond to you.  I of course wanted to be eloquent but brief.  I think at this point the US can do a lot to save lives in the cause of peace and freedom.  We have to be involved.  Now our team in Washington may not be up to the diplomatic challenge but we have to try.  Do you agree?

94 dead from Maidan.

In Chicago alone, the number of homicides will surpass that number just for the first 6 months of 2014 (38 in January and February so far).  Maybe fix our own problems first?  Would you support that?

[lordtiberius]

94 dead from Maidan.

In Chicago alone, the number of homicides will surpass that number just for the first 6 months of 2014 (38 in January and February so far).  Maybe fix our own problems first?  Would you support that?

No.  I don't.  Sorry

[justme100]

How is it so many people here who do not even live in Ukraine other than maybe they are married to a Ukrainian women, make the occasional trip to Ukraine once in a blue moon, have no direct contact with many Ukrainians or Russians living in Ukraine? They do not speak Russian or Ukrainian ,but know every thing about the situation???

Yes, that is why it only makes me laugh reading some comments here. You also forgot to mention blocked media there. Let they remain in their delusions proposed by their media)


P.S. I want to tell loud thanks to everyone for all those warm words I get PM.It's very pleasant to feel such an emotional support coming in these words from all over the world.

[JayH]

What makes me laugh is that  misguided people in the Crimea  are relying on the same cowardly Berkut who were responsible for Maiden murders-- and the same Berkut that deserted their posts at the first sign of  a more even battle.
Now they hide on the Crimea  in a pseudo battle-- against who? The local population-- mmm-- sounds mighty like the battle they just lost.
The truly sad part is to put people thru any of this-- it is only the promotion by Putin that has given them the false courage-- and the population of the Crimea as a whole will be the losers.

http://tsn.ua/politika/dorogi-na-krim-sche-vidriti-eks-berkutivci-pereviryayut-kozhne-avto-u-poshukah-vibuhivki-337351.html

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/nad-simferopolem-povnistyu-zakrili-povitryaniy-prostir-337344.html

http://tsn.ua/svit/rosiya-proti-poserednickoyi-misiyi-v-krimu-diplomat-337354.htm

And Now This Gem !!
Unbelievable arrogance!!

"In the State Duma a draft law was aimed at the Crimea to Russia in the State Duma registered design that can attach to the Crimea Russia State Duma deputies of the bill prepared with an eye to the region, according to a story TSN.19 30. draft amends the law " on Accepting the Russian Federation and the formation of a new entity of the Russian Federation. " group of MPs offer to simplify joining part of a foreign country. It is time to connect to a foreign country or of part of it can only be by mutual consent of both countries. deputies in the new draft law would take that to join need only the will of the people - such as a referendum. Moscow did not recognize Russia's participation in the events of the Crimean   addition of the Duma constantly produces new bills that propose to simplify the issuance of Russian passports to Ukrainian. A package of bills Duma will consider March 11. As you know, in the Crimea for several days last protest. People need not to recognize the new leadership of Ukraine. Also note Crimean parliament appointed a new head of the Council of Ministers of Crimea. Premier Peninsula became the leader of the "Russian Unity" Sergei "

NOW THIS GEM-- RUSSIA OFFERS TO HIDE FUGITIVE BERKUT IN SIBERIA
Russia offers work fugitive "Berkut": mine in Khakassia and Novosibirsk Novosibirsk builders are ready as soon as possible to build temporary housing for soldiers special forces of Ukraine "Berkut" and the mayor offered to arrange Chernogorsk Ukrainian law enforcers to work miners. informs Tsenzor.NET with reference to "Izvestia". On a plot of 5 hectares in the Novosibirsk region in the spring of planned low-rise buildings. However, given the situation in Kiev, director of construction company "Empire Story" Vasily Eryukov extra changed his plans. - We build prefabricated house - told Eryukov. - In each townhouse we can settle for four families. A total of six homes without problems we can settle 20 families commandos. Developers ready this month to build temporary accommodation. Read also "Tsenzor.NET" Chapter Kalinowski "Jaguar" told the truth about the abuse of Cossack GAVRILYUK will build good houses on the carcass technology. On the production already has blanks for future buildings. - These panels are ready to be sent to the area - says a representative of the company's production of sandwich panels resume the Olga. - It will be possible to build a shelter for two weeks literally. If fighters "Berkut" would have to run the country, we are ready to provide them with housing in the near future. Now to him there are very bad, and in Siberia it is calm. In turn, the authorities Chernogorsk - small coal town in Khakassia - ready to provide special forces and shelter, and work. According to the head of the municipality, the citizens of Ukraine will be able to settle in Siberia. - We can give them a job, a decent salary and provide safe accommodation of their families - made ​​a statement Mayor Basil Chernogorsk Belonogov. Persecution of men "Berkut" Ukraine has caused a strong reaction in Russia. - Let us turn to the leadership of the country, let everyone of "Berkut" today at the Russian Interior Ministry will provide job - said recently the head of the faction "Fair Russia" Sergei Mironov. Astrakhan Governor Alexander Zhilkin informed the Foreign Ministry about the readiness of the region to take on their territory and provide the necessary assistance to fighters "Berkut" if they will seek political asylum in Russia. Deputy from the Liberal Democratic Party, Ilya Drozdov introduced to the State Duma a bill on which Ukrainian citizens of Russian nationality, if adopted, will be eligible for Russian citizenship in a simplified manner. # Ukraine # Russia # Berkut # Revolution