Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[CanadaMan]

What happened in Ukraine was a coup, no more and no less.
Now let the people of Ukraine use the DEMOCRACY they are able to use in order to solve this.
It is very funny to read that a referendum isn undemocratic just because the result may not fit the agenda.

Let te people decide, do not decide what is the desired result for them.

Shadow, let the people decide? Sure!
But give them a chance to decide.

A referendum that's basically worded:
1. Do you want to join Russia today?  (check here)
2. Do you want to join Russia shortly after? (check here)

is not the same as one worded:

1. Yes I want to join Russia. (check here)
2. No, I don't want to join Russia. (check here).

[Gator]

Ukraine was integrated part of Russia for 400 years.

Maybe just that part east of the Dniper River.   Crimea, the focus of this discussion, was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1783.  Before that it was an independent  Tatar khanate. 

Once it obtained control, "Russia, fearing separatism, imposed strict limits on attempts to elevate the Ukrainian language and culture, even banning its use and study."  (source -Wiki).  It sounds as if Russia was almost as aggressive and assertive as Americans were in their territorial acquisitions from Mexico. 

Upon the collapse of the USSR, "on December 1, 1991 Ukrainian voters overwhelmingly approved a referendum formalizing independence from the Soviet Union. Over 90% of Ukrainian citizens voted for independence, with majorities in every region, including 56% in Crimea."   The international community soon recognized their independence, Poland and Canada on December 2.  At the time, did Russia recognize Ukraine's independence?  Challenge it?  Or just let it slide as Russia had many issues of its own to deal with?

Was a treaty signed between Ukraine and Russia?  There is some agreement allowing Russia the use of the naval base at Sevastopol.

[JayH]

Maybe just that part east of the Dniper River.   Crimea, the focus of this discussion, was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1783.  Before that it was an independent  Tatar khanate. 

Once it obtained control, "Russia, fearing separatism, imposed strict limits on attempts to elevate the Ukrainian language and culture, even banning its use and study."  (source -Wiki).  It sounds as if Russia was almost as aggressive and assertive as Americans were in their territorial acquisitions from Mexico. 

Upon the collapse of the USSR, "on December 1, 1991 Ukrainian voters overwhelmingly approved a referendum formalizing independence from the Soviet Union. Over 90% of Ukrainian citizens voted for independence, with majorities in every region, including 56% in Crimea."   The international community soon recognized their independence, Poland and Canada on December 2.  At the time, did Russia recognize Ukraine's independence?  Challenge it?  Or just let it slide as Russia had many issues of its own to deal with?

Was a treaty signed between Ukraine and Russia?  There is some agreement allowing Russia the use of the naval base at Sevastopol.

Treaty to allow base was signed a few years ago.It also spelt out ANY Russian movements needed approval  outside of the base itself.
In addition-- Russia was a signatory of the 1994  Budapest Agreement that guaranteed Ukraine sovereignty and the protection of its designated borders. There is NO question that Russia is in breach of documented agreements --let all that it has showed no morality whatsoever.
It is ridiculous to try and rationalise the Russian behaviour--it  declared war on Ukraine and invaded Ukraine. It is to Ukraines credit that it has sort to not escalate at this time.

[lordtiberius]

JayH has eviscerated Belvis's apology for Putin yet jone, your heart bleeds for Russia.  why?

Calmissile, it is not certain what the West will do.  Wouldn't you agree?  Further we know Putin lies and lies but are we certain that those he surrounding him are not lying to him too?

[cc3]

No, and I have never been to Ukraine. I have been to Russia almost a dozen times and that doesn't qualify me as an expert on Russia either but, I am aware of the history. None of it is at play IMHO on Putin's masturbating on Ukraine. He wants Ukraine under his boot and marching lockstep to his order. When he achieves this in Crimea, he'll look to Kiev. He's done nothing at this point but make a play and see if he can get Crimea and it looks like he'll succeed. Europe is weak and leaderless, Obama and Kerry are buffoons. Nobody to stop him. We'll also disagree on Ukraine's ability for protection. They are no match for Russia

Afghanistan was no match for the ruthlessness of Russia's incursion until the US began training future al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists and providing them with Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, an effort which we are sure to replicate if Russia moves its invasion into real Ukraine. (Might have to impeach Obama for traitorous incompetence first).

[ML]

Quote from: jone on Today at 12:02:50 PM

    3.  When a blatant lie is told over and over again:  "We do not have troops in Ukraine!"  don't the people of Russia know how disdainful telling this lie is to the rest of the world?  Don't they know how such lies diminish Russia to the point of being a laughingstock?

In response to this petition I want to remind about recent talk in Congress when one US official sweared there is no Al Qaeda in Syria. Oh, wait, better I show one picture:

Come on Belvis, this is a chickenshit answer.

The question was not about what happened somewhere else at some other time.

Just what embarrassment do you Russian folks feel when you sit around the dinner table and know that your government claims that the armed intruders in Crimea are not Russian troops?

The average USA citizen knows nothing about who is or is not in Syria.

But you and the average Russian citizen knows full well that Russian troops are in Crimea.

So just how do you look at yourself in the mirror each day and realize you are a part of this culture?

And what lies do you tell about this to your children?

[jone]

ML,

To answer your question, JustMe100 stated that the Russian people admire Putin for lying to the world.  I found her answer to be in line with old Soviet doctrine.  She believed that if Putin spit in the face of everyone listening to him, that he would be raised in the esteem of those he represented.

Now we have members here justifying the lies. 

And finally, we have a member here, who in his sober moments is usually very careful in what he says, calling for the elimination of the free press in Russia, claiming that the Moscow Times spreads lies and should be banned.  (Still can't figure how this rationalization came about.)

These are certainly unusual times in which we live.  If someone would have told me at the start of the Sochi Olympics that we would be here, now, I would have thought the person totally bereft of reality.

*********

I want to answer some of the interesting observations that have run since I last posted:

1.  To Gator:  Yes, Gator, 'The War of Northern Agression'.  Did you know that some areas of the South voted not to secede?  They had no choice.  In North Carolina, whole counties voted to stay with the North.  Moreover, the US Civil War started with the South firing on Fort Sumter.  At that time some eventual confederate states were not even in the Confederacy.  I loved the definition delivered in the movie 'Lincoln'.  In it Lewis, as Lincoln, stated that it was the people in rebellion that had usurped state laws. 

My belief is that Krim is voting for secession at the point of a blade.  The original vote to distance the government from Kyiv was done at the point of a blade.  The decision to invite Russian troops in was done at the point of a blade.  The operation was the same one tried in the government of Donetsk - but failed.  That is why I believe that the ongoing question of secession of Eastern Ukraine has already been rejected.

I do not believe a secession movement is valid if done at the point of a blade. 

2.  KNOCK OFF THE NAME CALLING.  NEXT TIME I WILL DELETE THE WHOLE POST believes I am too much in love with Russia.  He is right.  I am in love with the Russian people.  I love the cities of Russia.  Until now, I have been an admirer of Vladimir Vladimirovich and his government.  I am in great support of the raising of the middle class that I have seen in my Russian travels.  I was disdainful of Russia's occupation of areas of Georgia, but that was pretty much off my radar.  But I cannot fathom the resulting escalation of tensions and the ultimate push to the West that Ukraine will undergo as a result of this ill conceived operation that, I believe, was laid on in a very short period of time - and not thought out. 

If Russia had looked down the road, they would know that the sympathy gained by Kyiv by the Western powers will end up backfiring on Moscow to the point that Ukraine will NEVER forget this forcible annexation.  It will be the schism that will define Eastern European politics for the next generation and Moscow, in particular Putin, will never live it down.

***************************************************************

Richard Nixon:  "I am not a crook!"

Bill Clinton:  "I did not have sex with this woman!"

Vladimir Putin:  "There are no Russian troops in Crimea!"

Absurd statements have a way of defining the man!

[LAman]

.

***************************************************************

Richard Nixon:  "I am not a crook!"

Bill Clinton:  "I did not have sex with this woman!"

Vladimir Putin:  "There are no Russian troops in Crimea!"

Absurd statements have a way of defining the man!

If you want to quote someone Jone, please use correct words..... " I did not have sexual relations with that woman........".      Just gotta have the definition of 'sexual relations" !!!! There are several meanings...

[jone]

Hmm, you do remember the quote.  (Better than me, I'm sure.)   

And it does define the man. 

[LAman]

Hmm, you do remember the quote.  (Better than me, I'm sure.)   

And it does define the man.

It was in my repertoire!!! 

Yes, what a man says does define him....

[lonedrake]

My belief is that Krim is voting for secession at the point of a blade.

This is the part that I can't figure out. Was this really the case? Or do the majority of Crimeans support this? Where are the protests? Where is Justme? To many questions and not enough answers.

What if the majority in crimea do want to be part of Russia? How would any military force (other than Russia) help?


My wife just said that Ukraine shut off the water and electric to Crimea.......or they are going to.

 

[jone]

LD,

We are mostly too young to remember, unless you have studied history, the way a Soviet style crackdown occurs. 

So let me take you through it, step by step:

1.  The majority of Krim residents are of Russian heritage.
2.  If you had polled the Krim residents on the night of Leninfall (seems to be a close enough day for the epicenter of this crisis) you would have found that the majority were against any separation with Ukraine.
3.  In the space of a single evening, the Cabinet was replaced, and a new leader emerges for Krim.  He is rabidly pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian.
4.  No one knows what happened in the regional parliament the night that the former government was displaced and the new government installed except that all press were physically removed from the building and guards were placed so that no one could ascertain what was said. 
5.  Since this time, Ukrainian legislators and Tatar legislators from Krim have not been forthcoming, leading speculators to believe that their families are threatened.

That is the basis for the Russian incursion.

Skip ahead.  The Krim Parliament invites Russia to support their move to be part of Russia.  Russian troops are invited in.  Russia denies sending troops although at last count there were over 18,000 troops present and involved a movement of troops again, in only the last 10 hours.

The situation in Krim is a replay of 1968 and 1956.  These were the tactics used.  Some things don't change.  Unfortunately.

[jone]

From the Kyiv Post:  Today / A Slant on Crimean Politics

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — Two weeks ago, Sergey Aksyonov was a small-time Crimean politician, the leader of a tiny pro-Russia political party that could barely summon 4 percent of the votes in the last regional election. He was a little-known businessman with a murky past and a nickname — "Goblin" — left over from the days when criminal gangs flourished here after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Times have changed.

Today, Aksyonov is the prime minister of Crimea's regional parliament and the public face of Russia's seizure of the Black Sea peninsula. He is, by all appearances, a man placed in power by Moscow who is now working hard to make Crimea a part of Russia.

He also leads a brand-new army, 30 men carrying AK-47s who are still learning to march in formation. "Commander!" they greeted him Saturday, when they were sworn into service in a Simferopol park.

Speaking at the ceremony, the former semi-professional boxer said that while Crimea's March 16 referendum would make the peninsula a part of Russia, he holds no grudge against Ukraine.

"We are not enemies with those soldiers who pledged loyalty to the Ukrainian state," he said, referring to the soldiers now barricaded into bases across Crimea, unsure what will happen to them. They will be allowed to leave for Ukraine if they wish, he said.

He is, he insisted, a peacemaker.

But the people of Simferopol remember Aksyonov by his 1990s name, "Goblin."

"He wasn't a criminal big shot," said Andriy Senchenko, now a member of Ukraine's Batkivshchyna party, which was at the forefront of the Kiev protests that led last month to the downfall of pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych. Senchenko described Aksyonov as a "brigade leader" in a gang that was often involved in extortion rackets.

While Senchenko is not unbiased — his party opposes Aksyonov's push for Crimea to become part of Russia — the editor of the region's main pro-Russian newspaper, Crimean Truth, also accused Aksyonov of being in a criminal gang. Mikhail Bakharev made the allegations five years ago, when Aksyonov first emerged on Crimea's political scene.

Aksyonov, who denies the allegations, sued Bakharev for defamation and won, but a higher court later dismissed the case against the editor.

Today, with Aksyonov at the center of Crimean politics, and with the Russian soldiers who back him deployed across the peninsula, Bakharev now insists he was mistaken.

The stories about a criminal past "were just his enemies attacking him," Bakharev said during an interview, shifting nervously and clearly unhappy to be discussing the topic. He said further investigations showed Aksyonov had no ties to criminal gangs.

He now counts himself as an ardent Aksyonov supporter, calling him "a confident and brave person who is not afraid to take responsibility."

Crimea has been swept into turmoil over the past two weeks, as Moscow, furious over the fall of Yanukovych and the pro-Western outlook of the new government, used hundreds of Russian soldiers to seize political control of the peninsula. The Russian soldiers — who Moscow insists are members of a Crimean self-defense force that Aksyonov created last year — ringed the regional parliament. Then, with armed soldiers inside the chamber, Aksyonov was named prime minister.

His critics say it's clear that Aksyonov is simply a puppet, someone installed by Moscow to ease what has become, in effect, a Russian takeover of its former territory.

"If six months ago someone would have told me that Aksyonov would become prime minister, I would have laughed," said Valentina Tsamar, a prominent Simferopol journalist with the TV channel Chernomorskaya.

It was a sudden rise to power for Aksyonov, who didn't go into politics until 2009 when he united three pro-Russian organizations into the Russian Unity party.

The party reached out to Crimea's large Russian-speaking population with political advertisements that compared anti-Yanukovych protesters to Nazis and promised a golden age for Crimea replete with vineyards, jobs and well-off tourists.

He also insisted he had no intention of splitting off from Ukraine. Just three weeks ago, he told The Associated Press in an interview that the party "has never wanted Crimea to separate from Ukraine."

But the advertisements did little good. Russian Unity's rallies were notable for their paltry turnouts, and it took just 4 percent of the votes in the 2010 elections.

Local journalists say Aksyonov first emerged on the political scene with the backing of Vladimir Konstantinov, the speaker of Crimea's parliament and a prominent builder now embroiled in scandals over unpaid bank loans and failed construction projects. Konstantinov's company, Konsul, collected money from Ukrainians to build homes but never finished the projects, according to reporters who have looked into the deals.

"Now these people have no apartment, and no money," said Sergey Mokrushin, an investigative journalists with Chernomorskaya who spent months examining Konstantinov's finances.

Official investigations, though, never apparently began. Members of the parliament are immune from prosecution, and Konstantinov's powerful ties to the now-ousted Ukrainian ruling party meant investigations could be easily stalled.

"He's untouchable," Mokrushin said.

He does, however, have supporters.

Gennady Ivanchenkov, a 56-year-old Simferopol economist, said he's impressed with Aksyonov's leadership in such a tumultuous time. As for Aksyonov's past, he isn't sure the "Goblin" stories are true, and even if they are he isn't worried.

"Those pages of his life, they are not relevant," he said. "You know, the '90s were such dark times and now I can only judge him by what he's doing now."

___

Maria Danilova in Kiev contributed to this report.

[lordtiberius]

INSULTS AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES DIRECTED AT OTHER POSTERS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.


This is the part that I can't figure out. Was this really the case? Or do the majority of Crimeans support this? Where are the protests?
To many questions and not enough answers.

What if the majority in crimea do want to be part of Russia? How would any military force (other than Russia) help?


My wife just said that Ukraine shut off the water and electric to Crimea.......or they are going to.

[/quote]

a dated story but it may have some clues:

[Belvis]

Just what embarrassment do you Russian folks feel when you sit around the dinner table and know that your government claims that the armed intruders in Crimea are not Russian troops?
...
So just how do you look at yourself in the mirror each day and realize you are a part of this culture?

There is a widespread opinion in Russia that political lie and  hypocrisy are  incorporated parts of western culture. Unfortunately our leaders  learned lessons from their US colleagues and behave in same way. I regret, they shouldn't.
I like more German style of politics.

[lordtiberius]

There is a widespread opinion in Russia that political lie and  hypocrisy are  incorporated parts of western culture. Unfortunately our leaders  learned lessons from their US colleagues and behave in same way. I regret, they shouldn't.
I like more German style of politics.

Or maybe we learned from you:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/07/suffocating-pressure-former-center-for-american-progress-writer-describes-white-house-censorship/

http://zaidjilani.tumblr.com/

How Working in Washington Taught Me We're All A Little like RT America

[missAmeno]

Vladimir Putin:  "There are no Russian troops in Crimea!"

Absurd statements have a way of defining the man!

 and in the matter of days Putin became nothing more than one more ridiculous liar. 

[JayH]

There is a widespread opinion in Russia that political lie and  hypocrisy are  incorporated parts of western culture. Unfortunately our leaders  learned lessons from their US colleagues and behave in same way. I regret, they shouldn't.
I like more German style of politics.

You can see information on the internet and decide for yourself-or cannot you see it? Why is that?
Right now-- why does Russia block people in the Crimea being able to see Ukrainian TV as they always have?These are simple examples-- we have considerable evidence that you are seeing a ridiculous version of events in Ukraine and Crimea.
I do not expect you personally to be responsible for Putins actions- but to attempt to rationaise them by suggesting it is the western media distorting events is extremely ridiculous.  An open and free media ( yes-it is far from perfect) as there is in the west--looks for the truth,questions the participants openly-perhaps you have seen this?
You have made no attempt to answer my earlier responses-why not? Do you now see how ridiculous your comments look?
My request to you and all Russians--  question your government-show a fraction of the courage of your Ukrainian brothers and sisters  and stand up to your government- question them and encourage others to do the same.Right now your help is needed to educate and turn Russian opinions that Putins actions are those of a thug-stealing from Ukraine.

[Belvis]

You can see information on the internet and decide for yourself-or cannot you see it?

You're right, I collect info from local people who keep facebook pages and blogs so my picture is no bad and close to what's going on in reality. Russian and Ukrainian mass-media conduct info war as well as west media, you'll never find truth from these sources except claims made by officials.

[JayH]

You're right, I collect info from local people who keep facebook pages and blogs so my picture is no bad and close to what's going on in reality. Russian and Ukrainian mass-media conduct info war as well as west media, you'll never find truth from these sources except claims made by officials.

Amongst numerous sources -some are available to anyone- I/we have been able to watch live internet streamed video of events-- see in real time.This was so of Maidan-- but also of numerous other events. EG --I was able to watch live the first Russian helicopters arriving with troops and since then-various other aspects of the invasion itself. Ukrainian TV5 also sent live video of events. It takes a lot of faking to do that!! My point is that it is not all 2nd or 3rd hand information.
While you can alledge that I have a bias- I would not ignore the truth in my assessment-- and nor would most others who post on the forums here. What i have seen of the Russian propaganda--it is of an extreme kind--designed to distort the truth to a ridiculous extent-- there have been many examples that do not take long to prove ridiculous.Ukraine has made a major change of direction-to adopt new standards of behaviour in the world-- Russia is afraid of that and the freedoms it represents. For me-- it has been a huge disappointment of Russia and Russian people.

[jone]

There is a widespread opinion in Russia that political lie and  hypocrisy are  incorporated parts of western culture. Unfortunately our leaders  learned lessons from their US colleagues and behave in same way. I regret, they shouldn't.
I like more German style of politics.

Don't give me this crap.  You and I both know that the use of out and out lies was the trademark of Soviet politics.

Kruschev used to smack his opponents with the biggest lie he could think of and then when they were reeling from that, he would drive the knife home.  Stalin, not quite the master at that level did the same.  The true difference between Western culture and Soviet style culture is the group think or free press.  When you control what is being fed to the people, you can have them believe anything.  And that is why Putin thinks he can get away with this Soviet style takeover.  Because that is how he was taught. 

Western politicians can only lie as much as people cannot find out about things.  Reporters will call them out and discredit them immediately.  It is what are called checks and balances.  Non-existent, apparently in the current disclosures to the Crimeans and the Russian people.  And apparently, from you.  You are deluding yourself to think that current actions are modeled after the West.

As for Nixon - he was forced from office.  Clinton was impeached for lying.  You seem to be of the opinion that nothing bad should happen to Vladimir for an out and out lie.  That is and can be your opinion.  I just don't subscribe to it and I wonder how many here actually do?

[lordtiberius]

I do not expect you personally to be responsible for Putins actions- but to attempt to rationaise them by suggesting it is the western media distorting events is extremely ridiculous.   . . .
You have made no attempt to answer my earlier responses-why not? Do you now see how ridiculous your comments look?
My request to you and all Russians--  question your government-show a fraction of the courage of your Ukrainian brothers and sisters  and stand up to your government- question them and encourage others to do the same.Right now your help is needed to educate and turn Russian opinions that Putins actions are those of a thug-stealing from Ukraine.

Your debating partner lives in an un-free country.  (FWIW, America is becoming decidedly less so but that is besides the point.)  Not all Russians share Putin's view of his rights and his sense of history.  If you read the tweets of Vladimir Ryzhkov, his an opposition party leader he is against the war and says that this occupation will be a disaster because it will bring up a generation of Ukrainians and Russians who will have an enmity for each other.

http://twitter.com/Vlad_Ryzhkov

I spoke to two Ukrainian flight officers during my first trip to Ukraine in the dog days of 2012.  They wanted to be apart of NATO and the EU but they did not want to be against Russia.  They wanted to be free and not be slaves to a mob state.  The fact is this should be our diplomatic objectives in the region.  We in the West do not seek to enslave Ukraine or Russia.  If we did, our policies would be decidedly different. 

Kennedy was not a good president or very successful in foreign policy, but he laid forth principles by which will secure our freedom forever if we seek first the kingdom of God:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

We should support opposition leaders like Mr. Ryzhkov and Mr. Navalny who btw is being harassed by Putin's mafia in the judiciary. 

[Belvis]

Ukraine has made a major change of direction-to adopt new standards of behaviour in the world-- Russia is afraid of that and the freedoms it represents.

I salute a major change of direction towards new standards. If it turns so the success in Ukraine will boost a change in Russia as well. 
What I observe now are :
1) Rape of Constitution, authority of baseball bits in Kiev;
2) The same faces in government as 10 years ago;
3) Direct political rule of oligarchy in regions supported by new regime.

We'll see.

[jone]

I salute a major change of direction towards new standards. If it turns so the success in Ukraine will boost a change in Russia as well. 
What I observe now are :
1) Rape of Constitution, authority of baseball bits in Kiev;
2) The same faces in government as 10 years ago;
3) Direct political rule of oligarchy in regions supported by new regime.

We'll see.

Ukraine is going the way of Polish reform and also the way of the Velvet Revolution, both situations that dramatically improved the political culture of both countries.  Russia will never pursue this course of action because Russia's leaders fear it but don't embrace it. 

Russia has already lost this war.  There is no scenario that Russia, in possession of Krim, doesn't polarize the rest of Ukraine.  Krim will stand as a constant reminder to the rest of Ukraine of what Russia intends to do if given the opportunity.  The ENTIRE COUNTRY will be ever vigilant making sure that something like this will not happen again.

There is a reason that the Soviet Union lost the cold war.  It is too bad the leaders of Russia didn't learn the first time around.

[lordtiberius]

2.    KNOCK OFF THE NAME CALLING.  NEXT TIME I WILL DELETE THE WHOLE POST believes I am too much in love with Russia.  He is right.  I am in love with the Russian people.  I love the cities of Russia.  Until now, I have been an admirer of Vladimir Vladimirovich and his government.  I am in great support of the raising of the middle class that I have seen in my Russian travels. 

Why is it that you love them so much?