Poll for the unmarried men

[jb]

Something KenC said the other day has me pondering why there seems to be so little consensus in matters of real importance and everyone gets to loggerheads so quickly over so many topics.  Then it occurred to me that there is a pronounced divide in the membership, that is; the marrieds and the unmarrieds.  I further realized that this divide really means there are two types of men here, optimists and realists.  The optimists line the left wing of this body, while the realists are on the right.  The unmarried opitmists want a more consensual, friendly, idealistic, cheerleading sort of board, while the married realist like to tell it like it really is.

The conflict between the two is as predictable as the rising of the sun.  The liberals vs the conservatives all over again.  Perhaps you guys who are just starting out will give us old married guys some guidelines, remembering please, that someday you may be an old married guy yourself.

[Voyageur]

Well, jb, i would also venture to say that even the married guys are divided - as the old married guy (married more than 2 - 3 years) and the recently married guys (newly-weds to 2 -3 years). As a married man with eight months married experience, I sometimes do not think that I have the experience to post my advice in some matters.

However, my line of thinking is more in line with what Turboguy speaks about than the hard liners (speaking mainly of the men who have been married for a longer time than I).

Not to muddy the water any more than it is, maybe there should also be an old married and a new marred opinion?

[Shadow]

I guess the advise of older married men (which does not include me yet  ) can be valuable, as long as these men do not forget to notice the dating world has changed since they married.

A couple of years ago it would be strange for a single woman in the FSU to have a mobile phone or a PC at home. Now it is something that is more common.
Visa has started debit card accounts in the main cities in Russia and Ukraine, so a woman being a (card paid) member on a dating site is already a possibility.
Attitudes and ideas of young women looking for men are changing rapidly.
Perhaps in 10 years men will go to the FSU because they want a wife that is not so family oriented and wants to have a career.

As far as cheerleading or cluebatting, I guess for me it all depends on the men. If someone feels his choice of a woman should depend on a bunch of virtual identities, I guess cluebatting is better than cheerleading. 

[KenC]

Hmmm, interesting poll, jb.  My take on it:

we don't want to hear it. 
a married man's experience will not affect what I would do in similar situation. 
clue bats are harmful to fragile egos. 
I want to make my own mistakes 
doesn't matter, I will do what I want to do anyway 

If any of these are the case, why even come here and read?  I know when I was beginning my courtship of Lena some 8 years ago, there wasn't any forums that I knew of to seek information about RW.  My alternative was to speak with an agency owner for hours on the phone.  I sucked all the information possible from his brain.  I wanted to learn every bit of useful information available from his vast experience.  He had the knowledge and experience that I did not.  I didn't debate his information with him, I was thankful for his taking the time to share it with me.  It was because of his willingness to impart this information to me that I was as well prepared for my trip as I was.  Did I follow his advice?  For the most part, I did until I had enough experience to make my own informed decisions.

Any man that even considers a RW or therefore, any foreign woman, as a potential mate, is somewhat of a rebel or a nonconformist any way.  He is willing to follow the beat of his own drummer.  I know I fall into that category.  But I am also smart enough to listen and learn all that I can before I jump into anything in which I have little or no knowledge or experience.

The "clue bat" come into play when an uninformed and inexperienced poster challenges the advice of experienced and knowledgable posters.  As it should.

The guys that tickle me the most are the "rah rah" guys that spout the "do it your way" theories when they have yet to accomplish squat!  In some cases they even have a long history of one failure after another.  Now there is a guy that I would listen to very closely and do just the opposite of whatever he has tried.

Therefor, the only response to your poll that has any intelligence to it is:
yes, their opinions are somewhat helpful
KenC
 

[Killer-B]

If any of these are the case, why even come here and read? KenC

Exactly!!! Otherwise you just have the blind leading the blind - why even bother posting then???

I think the REAL question is (was) Do you want "Old married guys" beating the @#$& outta ya for asking a dumbass question? (which in reality, is not a dumbass question when it comes from a newbie)...

Just my .02 cents

[Turboguy]

I think you made a good point there Killer.  I have been on the side of giving help and guidance and not beating them to death with the clue bat for some time.  I think a lot of the reasons the old experts that hang around here know so much and have the wisdom they have is that at one tme they were dumb newbies but time and experience have helped them.  Yes, newbies will have dumb questions and be inexperienced.  Hopefully treated right they can turn into old pros down the road that can be helping the others. 

[KenC]

Killer and Turbo,
You both missed the point on clue batting.  I think newbies are treated rather well here and their dumba$$ questions are either answered or they are referred to the threads on the subject.  As I wrote in my post:

The "clue bat" come into play when an uninformed and inexperienced poster challenges the advice of experienced and knowledgable posters.  As it should.

The scenario is often like this: An inexperienced poster asks for advice or throws his dilemma out for conversation.  The experienced posters respond.  Mr. "No Experience" doesn't like the responses and he attacks the "advice givers."  The "advice givers" smack him upside the head with the clue bat. 

This is usually followed by some illogical debate put out by Mr "No Experience" applying irrelevant or phantom experiences.  If they don't want to give credibility to the experience of the posters here, don't post here.  They have every right to do things any way they want, but on the other hand, don't come here and push an agenda that is only a theory and has never been actually tried.
KenC

[jb]

I think a lot of the reasons the old experts that hang around here know so much and have the wisdom they have is that at one tme they were dumb newbies

Don't try to take that to the bank.  Most of the old timers here were pretty savvy going into this.  What they lacked in common sense they accquired by making multi-trip to the FSU and got their feet wet the old fashioned way, with real experience. 

[KenC]

Don't try to take that to the bank. Most of the old timers here were pretty savvy going into this. What they lacked in common sense they accquired by making multi-trip to the FSU and got their feet wet the old fashioned way, with real experience.

jb,
I would like to add that the difference between a "dumb" newbie and a "smart" newbie is that the "smart" one learns from other people's mistakes and not necessarily his own. This is actually accomplished by listening to others with experience.
KenC

[BC]

I can say from four years of experience on two forums, the married oldtimers, especially one posting here were able to pick winners and loosers with a batting average up there with the pro's.

I remember early on getting mildly 'tapped' for arranging VIP customs clearance at Borispol and letting others know what a 'good deal' it seemed to be..  Yeah a very good looking girl met me at the plane, gave me a cup of coffee while I waited.. I now know different, that I just had a very expensive cup of coffee with a shot of cleavage.

I'm willing to bet newbies that were considering VIP services cleared quicker than I did with the tips he supplied.

The 'clue bat' wasn't about me.. It was about all the others.. 

[Jay Patches]

Don't try to take that to the bank. Most of the old timers here were pretty savvy going into this. What they lacked in common sense they accquired by making multi-trip to the FSU and got their feet wet the old fashioned way, with real experience.

Oh, come on jb, do you think Shane Neff would agree with that statement?

My point is, there were as many dumbass's 20 years ago, as there are now. The only thing people need to decide (for themselves) is how they're going to treat the next dumbass who comes along.

T/G, stop whining, you're as bad as Clyde. You get thumped every once in a while by jb and others because they give a damn. Others, like me, could care less. It is my firm belief that Experience is the best teacher. If you, or I, make mistakes, we hopefully learn from them and improve what we do. If someone wants to learn from the monumental screwups I've made, then good for them. If not, then let Experience dole out the lessons herself....

JP

[Killer-B]

Killer and Turbo,
You both missed the point on clue batting. I think newbies are treated rather well here and their dumba$$ questions are either answered or they are referred to the threads on the subject.

Just FWIW Ken - I never made mention of the "clue-bat"...

Sure, there are times it's needed - and there are times it's ABUSED --

I think the sheer "arrogance" that some see on this board at times, well, that in itself is quite amazing to watch .... As to "theories" and "fact" - I'm with ya most the time on that one... But we ALL are entitled to "opinions" and "healthy debate"...

In the end - Worst case - Just go off and do it "your way" (if that's what works for ya) - Or simply "agree to disagree".... Pretty simple really...

These boards (plural) get into "trouble" when the personal attacks come into play, when really there's rarely a (good) reason to beat someone silly -

It's healthy to debate and have several options to a problem or question.... A wise man "listens"... A fool rambles on...

KB-

(Considering I ramble the most - Guess that makes me the latter)

[Turboguy]

Well Ken as far as your statement that Newbies are treated rather well here I personally think they never know what they will find when they post here.  I have seen some guys that were Newbies, perhaps a little clueless and are treated pretty well.  For those with good memories who have been around, Joe From Virginia comes to mind.  He was treated quite well and struck me that had the mood caught the right people he could have been crusified.

When I think of people who to me were not treated rather well of course the ones who come to my mind are Doug and Miss Sensuality, there were lots more though.

I see others who wre not treated kindly who probably did not deserve to be treated kindly and I am not saying that we could ever know what we would do until we are actually in someone elses shoes.   The one who comes to my mind who probably deserved it was the guy who sent his fiancee back 5 days after she arrived.

I have to agree with Killer that personal attacks do no good and I think we did a lot of harm with the use of the clue bat on Photo.  He came here looking for advice and wanting to talk about his concerns and he got little advice or help with his concerns. 

[KenC]

Well Ken as far as your statement that Newbies are treated rather well here I personally think they never know what they will find when they post here.  I have seen some guys that were Newbies, perhaps a little clueless and are treated pretty well.  For those with good memories who have been around, Joe From Virginia comes to mind.  He was treated quite well and struck me that had the mood caught the right people he could have been crusified.

When I think of people who to me were not treated rather well of course the ones who come to my mind are Doug and Miss Sensuality, there were lots more though.

I see others who wre not treated kindly who probably did not deserve to be treated kindly and I am not saying that we could ever know what we would do until we are actually in someone elses shoes.   The one who comes to my mind who probably deserved it was the guy who sent his fiancee back 5 days after she arrived.

I have to agree with Killer that personal attacks do no good and I think we did a lot of harm with the use of the clue bat on Photo.  He came here looking for advice and wanting to talk about his concerns and he got little advice or help with his concerns.  ]

Sorry Turbo, but that last sentence is total bullsheet!  You seem to have the unique ability to post something that is 98% intelligent and useful and then destroy all of your credibility with one line of total nonsense.  Photodude got all the nice advice he asked for until he didn't like the advice and turned into an instant expert on women (Russian or other wise.)  He then wrote a revised T/R that was total bullsheet.  When he started spouting off to the people that had experience, it did turn mean.  Just for the record, I never attacked Larissa's looks or occupation or Miss Sensuality and I disagree with actions like that.  But when a guy attacks his advisor's because he doesn't like the advice given, all's fair in my book.
KenC

[Leslie]

I am now one of the guys who has built a successful marriage to a Ukrainian woman.
 
Back in 2002 I had spent $20k 3 years of my vacation trying to meet a decent RW and I had got precisely nowhere. I found RWG by chance and posted a report on my latest trip.

I got ROASTED by the old hands. A flameproof suit was no use whatsoever.

JB told me to get my *snip* in a pile and see if I could lift it !

Ron (the witchdoctor) said I was living a character in a day time soap Opera !!

BB ripped me to shreds for the fool that I was !!!

In that situation a guy can either WHINE or LISTEN.

It is very hard to admit to yourself that you have acted like a complete arse hole. It is harder still to change your behavior. I know because I did both. The "Band of Brothers" on RWG became my mentors.

I would NOT be married to Natalia if I had chosen to WHINE. I would still be playing "Sex in the City" with middle aged women who smelt of cat pee.....

The issue has been most aptly phrased by ConnerVT in an old Yankee proverb -

"You cannot teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig"

With occasional lapses I have given up teaching pigs to sing.

Losers are looking for validation of their stupidity won't find it here. No matter how much they post!

[Killer-B]

RE: Photo Dude - KenC I took a 6 month hiatus from RWG and came back to that "mess" of a thread... I read it front to back (like 17 pages?) and whilst I TOTALLY agree with you that he was not wanting to "hear" the (good/sound) advice being offered - You guys did shred him like hamburger meat... I guess that's just "tough love"... And in a previous post where you and I bumped heads - THAT is my recollection of you - and why I commented the way I did at that time...

Leslie - I was all good with your comments till your last line - And not so much that I even disagree with it - But do you *really* equate "newbies with no clue" to "Losers looking for validation for their stupidity"???  Seems you're trying to lump allot of people into that pile... I dunno man - seems pretty extreme to me... In that same breath, taking your own scenario, would you not be considered one of those "losers" looking for validation that took a ration of sh!t from the "Brothers"? Sure, I understand in the end - it paid off for ya... but everyone (person) is different.. And so is this board -

"Treat people the way you wish to be treated" - Nyet?

[Son of Clyde]

T/G, stop whining, you're as bad as Clyde. You get thumped every once in a while by jb and others because they give a damn. Others, like me, could care less.
JP

JP this must mean you do not care less enough but could care lesser?

[tim 360]

The very best lessons and advice one gets in life do not come sugar-coated. Some taste of P and vinegar and gunpowder.

If one is to know himself, does one also sugar-coat that also?

TG,  I think it is more cruel to agree with a fool than to point out the faults of his inexperienced thinking.  The married guys all offer valid points, though lite on the sugar.

[ConnerVT]

RE: Photo Dude - KenC I took a 6 month hiatus from RWG and came back to that "mess" of a thread...

Hiatus from RWG?  Was the thread there also?

If you took the hiatus from here (RWD), you missed much of what was written -- well more than 17 pages.  There was an entire first thread/TR, that was withdrawn, rewritten, commented, edited on the fly, you name it. 

Reading what exists of it today is a bit like archeology -- you can make some educated guess of what was there, but all the forensics in the universe won't allow you to see what was there...

[jb]

Son of Clyde,

I assume you are one of the;  "doesn't matter, I will do what I want to do anyway" votes, since you never listened to a single word any of the old married men said.  Ever.

I was waiting for that.

[Turboguy]

Leslie, I am going to start with your comments just because my answer will be shorter.  Humm middle aged women who smell like cat pee.  I think we must have dated the same AW.  

I have to agree with Killer.  We are all different.  You strike me as someone with a tough skin. Photoguy strikes me as someone a little more sensitive side and perhaps a bit of a romantic dreamer.  I an not saying that in a bad way or good way, I just think you are two very different people.  I haven't read the post you posted back in those days but I am sure if they would have been treating you the way Photoguy was treated I would have been by your side telling them they were jerks for their methods of trying to educate you.  I am glad it worked for you.  I think you are the exception.

Ken C,  Those threads are long gone so neither of us can go back and review them to see whose memory is flawed.   As I remember it, his first post after his return was along the lines of I really liked her but I have some concerns that are bothering me and I don't know what to think.  He was immediately told he was an idiot and stupid and she was trailer trash and not into him.  It went down hill from there and to me I have to commend photo guy for keeping his cool fairly well under what was a viscous attack.  Frankly I think any newby who came to RWD uninformed and wanting to learn would have been really turned off. There are a lot of really great guys here (and women) and I like to see people get  a positive impression from RWD not all that clue bat garbage and hurtful comments that serve no purpose.  

I still believe that if the responses had been, well Doug, tell us a little more about what you liked and the things that bother you and we will try to give you our thoughts on it,  that there could have been some good come out of it.  That Doug could have been helped to look at his situation objectively and that newbies coming here could have learned from Doug's experiences.  I stand my my statement.  He didn't get advice.  He got insults and attacks.

[Turboguy]

Son of Clyde,

I assume you are one of the;  "doesn't matter, I will do what I want to do anyway" votes, since you never listened to a single word any of the old married men said.  Ever.

I was waiting for that.

You have me a little lost when you say you were waiting for it jb.  You should be more careful with your wording.  Someone reading that might think you meant you were sittiing there in a nasty mood waiting to strike out at someone like Clyde and finally found the opportunity.   Those of us who know you better know you are just filled with sweetness and concern for your fellow man.  Just for the record jb.  That was how I voted.

[jb]

Figures....

[jb]

And just for the record, I don't agree with your recollection of P/G's initial TR.  I went back and counted it up once, he recieved 17 "atta boy" comments to his trip report before anyone commented that not getting kissed in 4.5 days together with a girl was not a good sign.  I know, because it was me who brought that to his attention.  I did it in a non-threating manner, just an observation, because he appeared dazed and confused about what had happened to him during his trip.  It has been often said, if a good RW likes you, you will know it.  There should have been no doubt in his mind if they'd hit it off, he didn't know it, and she certainly wasn't into him from what he wrote.

Maybe you need to double up on the old Ginkoba, your memory is getting foggy old buddy.

[Killer-B]

Hiatus from RWG?  Was the thread there also?

Well, lemme put it this way... I wasn't reading RWD at the time (late fall/winter?) If I recall correctly... It got so out of control, and "chopped up" (locked, Mod edits, posters' removing stuff) it was hard to keep up with that "mess"...

Point was, whether it's now an archaeological dig or not, Photo Dude did NOT take kindly to the "advice" being offered him... Was it sugar coated? I'd say it resembled more of a forced rectal exam LOL...

And speaking of sugar... I don't disagree that "tough lessons" in life are usually the ugliest -- But isn't the entire process, of finding a loving RW to be your wife, a pretty rugged task "as is"? -- Why would anyone want to come to a board to express their frustrations about the "process" just to be pissed on? (vs. pissed off I suppose?) Point being - Credible boards and sound advice come in all shapes, sizes and forms... Some sweet as sugar - and some harsh as nails...

But taking the high road by guiding someone who is misguided, whilst instilling some integrity in the process, speaks volumes about a mans true character...