Where your Heart is .... is that where your politics are?

[Slumba]

Back on what I was saying earlier, since I have been in this forum I have not heard one good word about Putin. Im not speaking about the corruption side of things, I am speaking about what he has done for the Russian people over the last 15 years on standard of living ect.

I would love to hear the Russian journalist Anna Politikovskaya's take on current events.  Unfortunately she is not writing anymore....

[GQBlues]

Some people think to live in Russia you have to bribe every day, just everyone...  I'm just wondering how I managed still didn't bribe anyone even once in my life. I feel myself like Alice in the Wonderland.

I can relate and understand that sentiment.

When I was a kid, and a very cute one at that, I too thought I was living a life full of adventure and dream-like existence. I seriously couldn't dream of having the need or want for much of anything in life. I had it all..

Then I came to California and witness the *other side of life*.

He-heh, blew a serious hole in my naivete.

[Gator]

Not one person in this forum has ever had a good thing to say on that side of things! I never checked all the threads.

I married someone I would consider a member of the economic middle class:  sole proprietor business, drove a new car, owned a 6-room apartment with fairly modern appliances, sent daughter to good university, etc.  I expressed her views this morning.

Prior to that she was a wealthy woman (twice).  Can you say "indoor swimming pool,"  live-in help, etc.  One husband  had a factory, borrowed money from the wrong people, and lost everything in a manner that would never have happened in America.  Other husband was also wealthy, and still is, yet he is not what I call a "family man."

I gave her views this morning. 

So what is your point?  The lifestyle of Russians, particularly those in the middle class, has improved dramatically after Putin first took office.   Are you saying they attribute their advancement to Putin and his policies and feel beholding to him?   I have met several of my wife's Russian friends, of whom half are middle class.  We never discussed politics, yet none seemed fervently patriotic or Putin lovers. 

I am not influenced by my wife's views.  I abhor Obama, yet I would take Obama over Putin any day.  Personally my opinion is that Putin had a hand in the 1999 apartment bombings that killed hundreds just before the national elections,  influencing voters that they needed a strong KGB man to lead the country.  Mentioned this to my wife and she thought me crazy. 

[steveboy]

I would love to hear the Russian journalist Anna Politikovskaya's take on current events.  Unfortunately she is not writing anymore....

 I never said life is perfect! And I will not go into what happens to innocent people in the US who get in the way of things! lol

Still for many Russians in  particular the younger generation life is good under Putin. And many love him.

And as I said everyone is oblivious to that.

[steveboy]

I married someone I would consider a member of the economic middle class:  sole proprietor business, drove a new car, owned a 6-room apartment with fairly modern appliances, sent daughter to good university, etc.  I expressed her views this morning.

Prior to that she was a wealthy woman (twice).  Can you say "indoor swimming pool,"  live-in help, etc.  One husband  had a factory, borrowed money from the wrong people, and lost everything in a manner that would never have happened in America.  Other husband was also wealthy, and still is, yet he is not what I call a "family man."

I gave her views this morning. 

So what is your point?  The lifestyle of Russians, particularly those in the middle class, has improved dramatically after Putin first took office.   Are you saying they attribute their advancement to Putin and his policies and feel beholding to him?   I have met several of my wife's Russian friends, of whom half are middle class.  We never discussed politics, yet none seemed fervently patriotic or Putin lovers. 

I am not influenced by my wife's views.  I abhor Obama, yet I would take Obama over Putin any day.  Personally my opinion is that Putin had a hand in the 1999 apartment bombings that killed hundreds just before the national elections,  influencing voters that they needed a strong KGB man to lead the country.  Mentioned this to my wife and she thought me crazy.

So next time your in Russia we should meet up and take a few hours doing a survey around the streets, maybe publish the results here?
It could be "Do I enjoy my life under Putin" survey.

[Muzh]

I said what I said. If you don't like it, it's your problem, not mine. I don't care about NYC, I have nothing to say about it.

Irony just fly by you, don't it? 

[Muzh]

20 years is a reasonable estimate.  One generation - not long in world history.

The problem with that thinking is that it's already been 20 years since the same statement was made. This has nothing to do with one or two generational changes. It is just maintining the status quo of the world order. THAT is wrong. SAME with our changes.
 
That driftwood should had been burned long time ago.

[Turboguy]

My view on the subject would disagree to an extent.  I will agree that life in Russia has improved markedly since Putin came into power.  The part I might disagree with it that I think it was a continuing thing that started before Putin was a name anyone in the USA knew.  I made my first trip to Russia somewhere around 1993 or 1994.  Things were terrible there.  People were not even sure that Russia wouldn't have to go bankrupt, pensioners and the military personnel were lucky if they were paid 6 months late.  I talked to people in Moscow making less that $ 200.00 a month.  From that first trip I returned on average about once a year.  On each trip I noticed a big improvement in the economy and peoples prosperity.   


My own feelings are that the trend didn't start when Putin came into power, rather it started long before.  The one setback I noticed was in '98 when the banking industry there collapsed otherwise it was a steady upward trend.

[GQBlues]

I'm not  fan of Putin, but based on the expansion of NATO despite the promise it'll never extend past the Berlin wall, I understand the many silly things he's done internationally.

I can also understand why and how the many younger generation, even the many older folks, would see him iconic/favorable. After all, he came about during the worst of time in modern day Russia, the 90s Perestroika. So in many ways, if that isn't hell for the people, it's probably next door to it.

Russians see *Putin* as being responsible for pulling them out of it.

[steveboy]

My view on the subject would disagree to an extent.  I will agree that life in Russia has improved markedly since Putin came into power.  The part I might disagree with it that I think it was a continuing thing that started before Putin was a name anyone in the USA knew.  I made my first trip to Russia somewhere around 1993 or 1994.  Things were terrible there.  People were not even sure that Russia wouldn't have to go bankrupt, pensioners and the military personnel were lucky if they were paid 6 months late.  I talked to people in Moscow making less that $ 200.00 a month.  From that first trip I returned on average about once a year.  On each trip I noticed a big improvement in the economy and peoples prosperity.   


My own feelings are that the trend didn't start when Putin came into power, rather it started long before.  The one setback I noticed was in '98 when the banking industry there collapsed otherwise it was a steady upward trend.

Yes but 93/94 was a long time ago twenty years later who ever is responsible be it Putin or not Russians standard of living has changed beyond belief for many, I know several young people who have made big businesses in Russia and they started with a suitcase! Try telling them Russia is a bad dark place to live whilst they are sat in an expensive restaurant eating oysters!
Im not saying its like this for all, but many young Russians consider Putin to be a good strong leader.

But my main point is nobody here has a single good word about the guy or what he has done for the country. Its completely biased.

Some people here should take some time out go live in Moscow a few months then come back here and say how bad Putins Russia is for the Russian people.

And again I am speaking about life in general.

[steveboy]

Life is not as bad as many paint the picture even for yanks living in Russia, and they are not all teaching English just to chase some women around)) lol

There are serious opportunities in the country for young Russians and foreigners, if you don't mind some paperwork)




http://rbth.co.uk/multimedia/video/2013/05/10/my_life_in_russia_karl_swanson_from_colorado_usa_25735.html

[steveboy]

Maybe some countries do not like to think it is possible to have a good life in Russia, I mean it wouldn't be good for the Western media machine would it? Especially if many young Russians had a higher disposable income at the end of each month compared to their Western counterparts?

Thats not going to go down good!!

Every country has bad points but for some reason the West just do not give up picking on Putin. lol





http://rbth.co.uk/multimedia/video/2013/03/22/my_life_in_russia_ricardo_rodriguez_from_vancouver_canada_24131.html

[steveboy]

Maybe it is a reason why an increasing amount of Western guys decide to relocate to Russia to be with their dream women including many guys from the US.

 

[dogspot]

That is why I ask has anyone married a middle class Russian women or a young Russian women from the city recently??

Yes. Middle class Russian city girl.

[Turboguy]

But my main point is nobody here has a single good word about the guy or what he has done for the country. Its completely biased.

I guess I am an oddity then because I think Putin has done a lot of good and made Russia a better place than it was.  I don't always agree with everything he does or the way he does it but I do think he is the best leader they have had.


I am not sure if it qualifies as a big city or if 6 years qualifies are recent but my wife came from a Russian city with a population of 800,000 and really had a quite comfortable life there.  She definitely wasn't looking out of desperation.   

[steveboy]

I guess I am an oddity then because I think Putin has done a lot of good and made Russia a better place than it was.  I don't always agree with everything he does or the way he does it but I do think he is the best leader they have had.


I am not sure if it qualifies as a big city or if 6 years qualifies are recent but my wife came from a Russian city with a population of 800,000 and really had a quite comfortable life there.  She definitely wasn't looking out of desperation.

You are the only one I have heard say a good word about the guy:)

It just gets boring listening to the same old tripe and listening to the same old stories about the guy trying to rip him 24/7

Yes he's a little corrupt , lol and yes maybe a few people have landed up at the bottom of the Moska with weights round their ankles ,it happens and not just in Russia! In many so called civilised countries along with many other things.

But give the guy a break for once maybe the forum can try to have a one week treaty without picking on millions of happy Russians president

[jone]

I can't believe I am debasing myself by reading SteveBoy's rants.  He pulls things out his hind parts and thinks that his absolutism is without question.

Well, here is someone else who has said plenty good about Vladimir Vladimirovich. 





>>>>>>>>>  From Four Days Ago  <<<<<<<<  I am in love with the Russian people.  I love the cities of Russia.  Until now, I have been an admirer of Vladimir Vladimirovich and his government.  I am in great support of the raising of the middle class that I have seen in my Russian travels.  I was disdainful of Russia's occupation of areas of Georgia, but that was pretty much off my radar.  But I cannot fathom the resulting escalation of tensions and the ultimate push to the West that Ukraine will undergo as a result of this ill conceived operation that, I believe, was laid on in a very short period of time - and not thought out. 

If Russia had looked down the road, they would know that the sympathy gained by Kyiv by the Western powers will end up backfiring on Moscow to the point that Ukraine will NEVER forget this forcible annexation.  It will be the schism that will define Eastern European politics for the next generation and Moscow, in particular Putin, will never live it down.

***************************************************************

Vladimir Putin:  "There are no Russian troops in Crimea!"

Absurd statements have a way of defining the man!






People who deal in absolutism are always wrong.  Which includes SteveBoy. 

(How did you all like my absolutism quote?  Hehe)

[Gator]

But my main point is nobody here has a single good word about the guy or what he has done for the country. Its completely biased.

You talk about the wealthy and the middle class.  The middle class in Russia is not a large percentage IMO.  Yes, many people drive a car but what else do they have?   In particular, what has Putin done for the ordinary citizen? 

Russia's economy has indeed grown.  I assert that is mostly because the prices for oil and gas exports have increased.   A progressive leader would have used these past 20 years to institute major changes to foster even more economic development. 

Undeniably the Russian economy with Putin at the wheel is a trickle-down economy.  Money flows at the top with hands out for bribes as it trickles to the bottom, resulting in very little trickle.  And the oligarchs  and government officials  enriched by the Russian economy take a significant portion of their money out of the country rather than reinvest it in the country. 

[jone]

Gator,

How much have you traveled outside of the Federal cities?  Just curious.  The standard of living is much higher than it was, say 15 years ago.

While I agree with your trickle down assessment, the infrastructure is growing.  I know it because I am and was there.

[Gator]

Some people here should take some time out go live in Moscow a few months then come back here and say how bad Putins Russia is for the Russian people.

And again I am speaking about life in general.

I visited Moscow in 1986.  Streets were narrower with more trees, no traffic jams.  Drove up to the Kremlin gate and parked a car free in the ample number of open spaces.  Same at the circus.  The Qum sold plastic shoes. 

The ordinary citizen's life has improved since then in terms of material possessions.  How about other measures such as healthcare?   Rule of law to protect them?

A tragic example.  A RW here in Tampa has an invalid mama who had vertebrae shattered when a commercial sign fell onto her as she was walking in her Russian city.  She can not walk now.  She can not fly on an airplane.   If this negligent accident had happened in America, she would have been compensated handsomely, and certainly  would have received better health care, maybe enough to be able to walk.

My wife's point is that ordinary citizens have been largely ignored as many people have enriched themselves.  Far more could have been done.  It wasn't done because if the masses are allowed easier access to a better life, those at the top feel there will be less for them.  Yet in a growing economy free of corruption, all participate. 

[Gator]

So next time your in Russia we should meet up and take a few hours doing a survey around the streets, maybe publish the results here?
It could be "Do I enjoy my life under Putin" survey.

I just asked my wife what her friends think of Putin.

She sad that her friends do not admire Putin.  In fact, they do not like him.  However, they say "it is Russia," realizing he is not going away.  So they reluctantly accept Putin because they can do nothing about it. 

[whynotme]

Harted is understandable nobody like strong countries, you love Russia under Gorbachev's ruling. A strange thing, every year the number of my students are reduced but salary increases. But this changes are not Gorbachev or Yeltsin merit. I'm not a rich woman (mean ordinary middle class not ex-oligarh wife), do not steal, do not take bribes, depend entirely on the state money.
I visited USA last year. The only reason I've agreed to relocate is the man, not country which fan I never was. And that he did not tell any bad word about russian life, russian president and politics during all time I know him (as you do). If this will change I'll just pack my suitcase and return to my evil motherland.

[jone]

Gator,

I agree with your thoughts in general, but you are taking one extreme, Russia at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union and the other extreme - the US, which among other nations, enjoys the greatest standard of living of any society in history. 

As for Russia:

One rejoices when you see food on the table where there was none.  One rejoices when you see roads to places that did not exist before.  One rejoices when people have cars to drive to those places.

While these may not seem like much to us here in America, I can assure you they are seen with great happiness outside of the Federal Cities.

[jone]

Harted is understandable nobody like strong countries, you love Russia under Gorbachev's ruling. A strange thing, every year the number of my students are reduced but salary increases. But this changes are not Gorbachev or Yeltsin merit. I'm not a rich woman, do not steal, do not take bribes, depend entirely on the state money.
I visited USA last year. The only reason I've agreed to relocate is the man, not country which fan I never was. And that he did not tell any bad word about russian life, russian president and politics during all time I know him. If this will change I'll just pack my suitcase and return to my evil motherland.

Whynotme:

You are very rich.  You have that great guy up in Seattle. 

But you should know how much we all like you and care for you and the swordsman.  Once the US gets you, living here, there is no way that you will be allowed to pack your suitcase and go back to the Motherland, evil or not.

[Gator]

One rejoices when you see roads to places that did not exist before.  One rejoices when people have cars to drive to those places.

While these may not seem like much to us here in America, I can assure you they are seen with great happiness outside of the Federal Cities.

Yes.  But this is not a good indicator.   Cars are everywhere in the world, even in third world countries.  At least Russia requires people to have a license to drive a car. 
 

Gator,

How much have you traveled outside of the Federal cities?  Just curious.  The standard of living is much higher than it was, say 15 years ago.

Overnight travel around the Yekaterinburg and Chelyabinsk areas.  I liked it. 

I did not go into the houses.  From outside I say the wooden homes have changed little in 40 years.  Inside, maybe a color TV and some appliances?  And of course more of your key indicator (cars).    A Tartar village meat stand still wanted $40 for a goose, so people have money.