Where your Heart is .... is that where your politics are?

[lordtiberius]

I read about these guys who say I am for Russia but against Putin and yet are silent about the war.  Hogwash.  If you are against Putin, you are against this war that no one wants except Putin.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[jone]

Quite honestly, we don't know who you're talking about, LT.

I don't know of many on the forum who have not come out against the 'War' as you put it.  I think Russia is making a great mistake,  defining its foreign policy in negative terms for the immediate duration of our lifetimes.  When we are in the grave, people will still be pointing to this time in the activities of Russia, where they invaded their neighbor, as the defining moment of their ongoing foreign policy.  Moreover, NATO and the NATO countries will consolidate against Russia. 

Russia no longer has the Balkan and Eastern European countries to buttress itself from 70% of the world's firepower.  The statements by Angela today were war like and direct:  You keep doing what you are doing and you will be in a world of hurt.

No longer is Ukraine or Poland or the Baltic States inside the propaganda machine that now operates in Russia.  These countries fear Russia - and Russia is giving them good reason to fear. 

As I stated before, even if Russia were to pull all of its tanks back and troops out of Crimea, these countries will not forget.  And the amount of war like operations in each of the evolving (sic) Western Countries will escalate over the next generation.

Regardless of what happens in Crimea.

As for the skin heads coming across the border from Russia into Ukraine to agitate Eastern Ukraine, I hope that the police round them up and put them on display for everyone to see, so there can be no mistaking that infiltrating Eastern Ukraine is an ongoing destabilizing operation by Russia.

[lordtiberius]

Well, Jone, I agree with your sentiments.  I would just ask our friends married to Russian nationals who fancy themselves as "balanced" to really objectively look at what has gone on in Ukraine, in your own Belarus and even in Russia, would things be as bad as they are had it not been for the machinations of one Vladimir Vladimirovich?

Any balanced person would conclude no.  If these balanced people were worth their salt, they would demand Russia to withdrawal from Crimea.  If the Crimeans were sincere about their withdrawal, then let the vote happen without the troops.  Even the Russian troops are not as callous as these dillweeds.

There is a diplomatic solution - Russia can have the oil, the bases or Putin - pick two.

[Faux Pas]

Gator,

I agree with your thoughts in general, but you are taking one extreme, Russia at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union and the other extreme - the US, which among other nations, enjoys the greatest standard of living of any society in history. 

As for Russia:

One rejoices when you see food on the table where there was none.  One rejoices when you see roads to places that did not exist before.  One rejoices when people have cars to drive to those places.

I think he was on the mark. Of course that is based from just my personal observations. The ordinary citizen from my wife's estimation has not benefited from Russia's wealth or Putin's term(s) of stewardship. According to her, in the Soviet days there was actually a middle class. Those being not influential or high in the party but educated professionals were considered middle class. Doctors, lawyers, teachers ect.. Then there was the collapse and all but high ranking officials and those with connections were reverted to low income/class.

In my wife's city of 6-700K I see an occasional crane putting up some new building of some sort but as far as infrastructure I notice the decay worsens from one trip to the next. For a city of over half a million the infrastructure reminds me of Detroit or worse.

While these may not seem like much to us here in America, I can assure you they are seen with great happiness outside of the Federal Cities.

AFAIK, there is Moscow and Piter, possibly Novosibirsk where the standard and quality of life is pretty good and then there is everywhere else that paints a completely different picture. Yes, the same could be said with 10 cities in America and everywhere else but the comparisons are much different.

My wife also tells me that even after the collapse of the ruble most people she knew had plenty of food. It might have been plenty of potatoes or plenty of blini but, they had plenty.

[JayH]

Quite honestly, we don't know who you're talking about, LT.

I don't know of many on the forum who have not come out against the 'War' as you put it.   

\

I read about these guys who say I am for Russia but against Putin and yet are silent about the war.  Hogwash.  If you are against Putin, you are against this war that no one wants except Putin.

Jon -it is clear to me what LT is saying.  Those who have jumped into this thread in praise of Putin have missed the point of your OP in thread-- what I am seeing is praise for Putin--not condemnation for invading another country.  It is also clear that many in Russia itself are clueless about Putin-- and even Russia itself-- and even less about Ukraine.
The facts are-- Russian has invaded Ukraine--  Russia has been making a major attempt to interfere with internal Ukrainian affairs--Russia has been and is continuing a HUGE military build up on the borders of Ukraine as I write.  None of this is or was necessary --the reason most of the Russian apologists here will advance are a nonsense-based on nonsense promoted to Russians.

By and large the people that addressed  the OP's question answered with dignity and sensitivity to the situation and showed some respect-- until the arrival of clueless zealots diverted the thread.

[lordtiberius]

People who are for Putin.  I get them.  There were people who were for Hitler.  I get them too.  My grandmother, RIP, was one of them.  What I don't get are the people who oppose Putin or don't like him are married to a Russian or are Russians themselves but won't condemn Mr. Putin or his war.  It is too late to help Moldova or Georgia but it is not too late to save Ukraine, Europe and the world from this monster.

[whynotme]

People who are for Putin.  I get them.  There were people who were for Hitler.  I get them too.  My grandmother, RIP, was one of them.  What I don't get are the people who oppose Putin or don't like him are married to a Russian or are Russians themselves but won't condemn Mr. Putin or his war.  It is too late to help Moldova or Georgia but it is not too late to save Ukraine, Europe and the world from this monster.

Путин еще никого не сжег в печке. Calm down.

[lordtiberius]

Putin e-sho oo-bill.  On ho-chet tol-ka vlast.  On монстр.  Tee znya-esh.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-donetsk-dead-674/

At least 1 killed, 10 seriously injured in east Ukraine clashes - reports

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

Russian Troops Mass at Border With Ukraine

I have not been wrong about this crisis yet even my critics will concede that.

Shto tee dumy-esh?

[Larry1]

Harted is understandable nobody like strong countries, you love Russia under Gorbachev's ruling. A strange thing, every year the number of my students are reduced but salary increases. But this changes are not Gorbachev or Yeltsin merit. I'm not a rich woman (mean ordinary middle class not ex-oligarh wife), do not steal, do not take bribes, depend entirely on the state money.
I visited USA last year. The only reason I've agreed to relocate is the man, not country which fan I never was. And that he did not tell any bad word about russian life, russian president and politics during all time I know him (as you do). If this will change I'll just pack my suitcase and return to my evil motherland.

So you can criticize his country but if he says one word critical of your country you will leave him?  Sounds like you're wearing the pants and Lon is not.

[whynotme]

Putin e-sho oo-bill.  On ho-chet tol-ka vlast.  On монстр.  Tee znya-esh.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-donetsk-dead-674/

At least 1 killed, 10 seriously injured in east Ukraine clashes - reports

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

Russian Troops Mass at Border With Ukraine

Я думаю, что ты идиот.

I have not been wrong about this crisis yet even my critics will concede that.

Shto tee dumy-esh?

I think my reply was moderatied  Its unfair, moderation must be both sided then

[lordtiberius]

So you can criticize his country but if he says one word critical of your country you will leave him?  Sounds like you're wearing the pants and Lon is not.

Do you support Vladimir  Vladimirovich Putin?

[Baffin]

When two elephants fight together, it's always the grass that suffer the most.

It doesn't matter who wins, it's the ordinary people who will pay the note.  So my heart is with these people.

[lordtiberius]

So my heart is with these people.

AGREE.  STRONGLY AGREE.

That is why the world must stand together and demand the Russian people decide they can have the oil, the bases or Putin - pick 2.

[whynotme]

So you can criticize his country but if he says one word critical of your country you will leave him?  Sounds like you're wearing the pants and Lon is not.

You think its possible to live being surrounded by hatred miasmas as  comments about Russia here?

[Belvis]

That is why the world must stand together and demand the Russian people decide they can have the oil, the bases or Putin - pick 2.

It seems the Russian people have already decided: (from Forbes)

[die_cast]

I can relate and understand that sentiment.

When I was a kid, and a very cute one at that, I too thought I was living a life full of adventure and dream-like existence. I seriously couldn't dream of having the need or want for much of anything in life. I had it all..

Then I came to California and witness the *other side of life*.

He-heh, blew a serious hole in my naivete.

Oh, thanks. It always nice to hear that somebody thinks you are just a kid.
One thing I have to add, my imagination is more creative, I can easily imagine myself things I want to get in life.  I even don't need to go to California. 

[Noch1]

Harted is understandable nobody like strong countries, you love Russia under Gorbachev's ruling. A strange thing, every year the number of my students are reduced but salary increases. But this changes are not Gorbachev or Yeltsin merit. I'm not a rich woman (mean ordinary middle class not ex-oligarh wife), do not steal, do not take bribes, depend entirely on the state money.
I visited USA last year. The only reason I've agreed to relocate is the man, not country which fan I never was. And that he did not tell any bad word about russian life, russian president and politics during all time I know him (as you do). If this will change I'll just pack my suitcase and return to my evil motherland.

Very telling statement.

[die_cast]

Irony just fly by you, don't it? 

What exactly you don't like? That I don't want to support your illusions? Most guys here chose to believe in things about my country which are not absolute truth. I'm not saying that there is no bribes in Russia, I'm just saying I don't have to bribe - in my region, in my city, in my life. And I don't feel myself like an exception. I don't deny there is a corruption in Russia. I believe that everywhere where people deal with money and power, there is and will be corruption, more or less, but it always is. In Russia this issue is more complex, because it supports by people - nepotism and bribery are ways how people used to live (and stop blaming Soviet Union for that, it started several centuries ago), but it doesn't mean you can't live here without it if you choose so. To bribe or do not is a personal choice.

[jone]

It is the natural state of being to support a leader when that leader is taking a country into war.  The patriotism and absolutism of war always come to the forefront.  However, once the war begins and the body bags and lists of dead begin to pile up at the feet of the leader, the country takes pause and decides whether this war was really worth it.  It never is.

In the Western Countries, the term Russian Roulette is used when certain life and death events are left to fate.  The simple fact is that Russia does not have the military equipment, any more, to fight the west.  Should the other major participants honor the 1994 Budapest Accord, the current violations of Ukrainian sovereignty by Russia will cause a real fighting war in Ukraine. 

Herman Munster is today, in London, telling Lavrov that the US will honor the accord.  Welcome to Russian Roulette.  The Russian people are being spoon fed propaganda.  For those who are interested, our good friend Mendeleyev wrote another piece yesterday about the censoring of the Press in Russia.

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/

James Michner wrote, in his book, Space, that Arab celestial observers would document every time a solar or lunar eclipse would occur for the period of time between the 6th and 12th centuries.  But, as he writes, if one looked into the history of Europe during that same period, not one historian comments on such happenings.  He goes on to write that this period of time, in Europe, was called the Dark ages, not because people could not see the events, but that because they refused to acknowledge what they were seeing.

Russia is entering a new Dark Age:  The increasing restrictions on the press, the constant propaganda, the group think mentality.   If Russia begins the push into mainland Ukraine, with no invitation and clearly no pretext (as if there was one for Crimea) it will open the door for European military escalation that the world has not seen in over 70 years.

[lordtiberius]

It seems the Russian people have already decided: (from Forbes)

Most businesses bend over for the dictator.  Playing both sides is good business.

My question for you is do you support Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin?

Do you support his war in Crimea?

[lordtiberius]

It is the natural state of being to support a leader when that leader is taking a country into war.  The patriotism and absolutism of war always come to the forefront. 

Wrong again.  The everyday Russian feels about Ukraine, the same way we do about Canada.  Further, its the mothers and parents of the soldiers that suffer.  You don't think this is foremost in their mind amidst all this bravado from Putin?

We don't know dissenting voices are in Russia because Putin has eliminated most of his opponents.  Of course our Russia frequent flyers know this..

However, once the war begins and the body bags and lists of dead begin to pile up at the feet of the leader, the country takes pause and decides whether this war was really worth it.  It never is. 

Tell that to the Ukrainians whose country is about to be invaded by their big brothers.  Tell that to the dead bodies now resting in their graves killed by sniper bullets.  Glory to the heroes.

In the Western Countries, the term Russian Roulette is used when certain life and death events are left to fate.  The simple fact is that Russia does not have the military equipment, any more, to fight the west.  Should the other major participants honor the 1994 Budapest Accord, the current violations of Ukrainian sovereignty by Russia will cause a real fighting war in Ukraine.   

This is a nicely worded sentiment.  But it assumes the West is unified, competent and moral.  If we listen to Madeline Albright, Kissinger and other foreign policy liberals, we are just waiting for the right price to sell out.  On the other extreme,
these power hungry globo-oligarchs could push us all to nuclear war.

Herman Munster is today, in London, telling Lavrov that the US will honor the accord.

I don't like the President, his party or the people that support him.  I think they are a bunch of commie scum.  But like Vladimir Ryzhak said about his leader, he is still my President - even when he doesn't act like it.

James Michner wrote, in his book, Space, that Arab celestial observers would document every time a solar or lunar eclipse would occur for the period of time between the 6th and 12th centuries.  But, as he writes, if one looked into the history of Europe during that same period, not one historian comments on such happenings.  He goes on to write that this period of time, in Europe, was called the Dark ages, not because people could not see the events, but that because they refused to acknowledge what they were seeing.

Although being factually inaccurate, what you wrote is a good analogy and eloquent from a literary perspective.  We are celebrating the 100th year anniversary of World War I.  May you live in interesting times.

Russia is entering a new Dark Age:  The increasing restrictions on the press, the constant propaganda, the group think mentality.   If Russia begins the push into mainland Ukraine, with no invitation and clearly no pretext (as if there was one for Crimea) it will open the door for European military escalation that the world has not seen in over 70 years.

Belarus is an ally of Russia.  It will share it its dismemberment and Armageddon.  You want to read history about how this will go.  Look at the Balkans.

[jone]

LT,

You are so over the top, I can't even tease you about it.  (Last time I teased you I got moderated for it.  And you know that I call you a friend.)

You need to to realize that, lacking subtlety, you have the tendency to alienate those you were trying to influence.  Back down a little.  You are not always right and everyone else is not always wrong.  That is absolutism at its worst.

[Muzh]

You think its possible to live being surrounded by hatred miasmas as  comments about Russia here?

LMAO
 
It's been happening to Americans for years so what's the difference? If I remember correctly the last I heard was that we deserve it.

[Muzh]

What exactly you don't like? That I don't want to support your illusions? Most guys here chose to believe in things about my country which are not absolute truth. I'm not saying that there is no bribes in Russia, I'm just saying I don't have to bribe - in my region, in my city, in my life. And I don't feel myself like an exception. I don't deny there is a corruption in Russia. I believe that everywhere where people deal with money and power, there is and will be corruption, more or less, but it always is. In Russia this issue is more complex, because it supports by people - nepotism and bribery are ways how people used to live (and stop blaming Soviet Union for that, it started several centuries ago), but it doesn't mean you can't live here without it if you choose so. To bribe or do not is a personal choice.

Heh, here's another one.
 
Why don't you replace the word Russia in the statement above and in its place put in America and then read it? Ever heard that before? Remember you own reaction?
 
Yep.

[Muzh]

Russia is entering a new Dark Age:  The increasing restrictions on the press, the constant propaganda, the group think mentality.   If Russia begins the push into mainland Ukraine, with no invitation and clearly no pretext (as if there was one for Crimea) it will open the door for European military escalation that the world has not seen in over 70 years.

Actually, it would be the 100th anniversary of Gavrilo Pricip's fateful action.