Somebody explain this to me

[Sailor291]

Can somebody please tell me where this fascist angle comes from?  My wife believes it and she is from Western Ukraine.  I have tried to get out of her why these people who to me want a Ukraine of their own are fascists and nazi's.  To my way of thinking the only person who is acting like Hitler is Putin himself.  His annexation of Crimea to me is exactly the same as Hitler marching into the Sudetenland, to protect the poor Germans who were being persecuted.  Maybe I am too simple minded or maybe I just dont get the Russian mindset, but can somebody explain it to me?

[ML]

The facist or nazi idea has no relevance when used to refer to current situation Ukrainians.

These are just a symbol of words that are thrown out in an attempt to discredit someone or to invoke PC (political correctness).

For instance, it is similar to homophobic that is hurled at someone just to try to derail the discussion.

Or one of the favorites in these forums is misogynist, to be used against someone who points out the error in some female's logic, etc.

The Russians and their apologists know that the word nazi brings up horror in minds . . . so they are quick to throw the word to their advantage.

There is the situation of the Svoboda party.  Persons in western Ukraine during and after WWII did fight against being forced into the Soviet Union.  Since they were fighting against the Soviet Army at the same time that Germany was fighting against the Soviet Army; there has been a continuing attempt to label persons in western Ukraine as nazi.

[Slumba]

I mostly agree with ML's analysis.

I would point out that the whole issue of the protests ended up being "stop the local corruption" - there is corruption at all levels of govt in Ukraine, and no matter what someone thinks of Russia or the Crimea , that issue can be addressed first.

[Muzh]

The facist or nazi idea has no relevance when used to refer to current situation Ukrainians.

These are just a symbol of words that are thrown out in an attempt to discredit someone or to invoke PC (political correctness).

For instance, it is similar to homophobic that is hurled at someone just to try to derail the discussion.

Or one of the favorites in these forums is misogynist, to be used against someone who points out the error in some female's logic, etc.

The Russians and their apologists know that the word nazi brings up horror in minds . . . so they are quick to throw the word to their advantage.

There is the situation of the Svoboda party.  Persons in western Ukraine during and after WWII did fight against being forced into the Soviet Union.  Since they were fighting against the Soviet Army at the same time that Germany was fighting against the Soviet Army; there has been a continuing attempt to label persons in western Ukraine as nazi.

Those guys were told to take off their SS uniforms before posing for them pictures.
 

 
Daily Mail

[Muzh]

I'm still looking for a picture of them boys dressed as misogynists.

[BillyB]

Can somebody please tell me where this fascist angle comes from?

We know what Hitler and fascists did. If they exist today and behaved in the same manner, you'll begin to hate and get an urge to kill them or at a minimum, you won't feel sorry if someone else killed them.


Putin is not the first person to call Western Ukrainians "fascists" but his words have more influence. Lots of Russians now wouldn't feel sorry for Western Ukrainians if they get killed.

[XMan]

I find Putin using "Nationalist" as a negative word laughable.  In Russia a "Nationalist" would simply be a patriot.  But in Ukraine a "Nationalist" is apparently something to be feared.  Hysterical.

[tfcrew]

...  maybe I just dont get the Russian mindset ...

Hey there Sailor.... back.
The thing is and always has been  that the western Ukraine of the world war saw the grind of Stalin that they didn't want and the yet unknown Third Reich that [couldn't be any worse?]..or so they thought.
That same mindset still exists today and they saw Vic Yanukovych as just another Russian puppet...which is correct. I believe the West has hung Ukraine out to dry.
 

[Voyager36]

The facist or nazi idea has no relevance when used to refer to current situation Ukrainians.

There is the situation of the Svoboda party.  Persons in western Ukraine during and after WWII did fight against being forced into the Soviet Union.  Since they were fighting against the Soviet Army at the same time that Germany was fighting against the Soviet Army; there has been a continuing attempt to label persons in western Ukraine as nazi.

Umm, no.
It does have relevance to the current situation, and it wasn't the fact that element in western Ukraine were "labeled" as Nazis for fighting the Soviets - they were some who were in fact Nazis (belonging to the SS)
 

Can somebody please tell me where this fascist angle comes from?  My wife believes it and she is from Western Ukraine.  I have tried to get out of her why these people who to me want a Ukraine of their own are fascists and nazi's. 
To my way of thinking the only person who is acting like Hitler is Putin himself.  His annexation of Crimea to me is exactly the same as Hitler marching into the Sudetenland, to protect the poor Germans who were being persecuted.  Maybe I am too simple minded or maybe I just dont get the Russian mindset, but can somebody explain it to me?

The problem is that even today, the people's attitudes reflect grievances dating back to WWII.
Before the war their was a Ukrainian independence movement "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
One of the leaders  Stepan Bandera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera is very controversial in Ukraine, as he cooperated with the Nazis against the Soviets. Part of his Ukrainian Nationalist forces assisted the Nazis before & during Operation Barbarossa as members of the Roland battalion and later as part of the Nazi's "201st Schutzmannschaft" battalion.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/201st_Schutzmannschaft_Battalion Parts of the Ukrainian nationalist movement also went on to form the 14th SS division (1st Ukrainian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Ukrainian)  , with support from the Ukrainian Central Committee and the Ukrainian Catholic church.
Even today in parts of Ukraine Stepan Bandera is regarded as a national hero, while in other parts he is regarded a traitor who collaborated with the Nazis.
 

[Ranetka]

bandera's responsible for a number of brutal ethnic cleansings. (google up massacre in vohlynia and eastern Galicia) killing masses of Jews, Poles and Russians. His portraits displayed on Maidan and groups of people shouting slogan from those times (Москаляка на гиляку - Hang the Russian) send a very clear message to many people.

[GQBlues]

...There is the situation of the Svoboda party.  Persons in western Ukraine during and after WWII did fight against being forced into the Soviet Union.  Since they were fighting against the Soviet Army at the same time that Germany was fighting against the Soviet Army; there has been a continuing attempt to label persons in western Ukraine as nazi.

Brings to mind the Manchurian civil war between the nationalists under Chaing Kai-Sek and the communists under Mao Zhe-Tung taking place when Japan decided to begin their expansion in China with brutal urgency. China went to the League of Nations to seek help. At the summit, the Japaneses delegation faced the committee and insultingly walked out with blatant disregard to everyone. When it was obvious the comical League of Nations Committee had proven itself useless to stop the Japanese effort to occupy China, both Chinese armies formed a union and fought against the invading Imperial army. Eventually falling short of their collective resistance.

But no, it wasn't the same in Ukraine. One side slept with the enemy.

[jone]

bandera's responsible for a number of brutal ethnic cleansings. (google up massacre in vohlynia and eastern Galicia) killing masses of Jews, Poles and Russians. His portraits displayed on Maidan and groups of people shouting slogan from those times (Москаляка на гиляку - Hang the Russian) send a very clear message to many people.

Yeah, just like those fake Nazi goons they had marching around Maidan, who later turned out to be paid to wear the uniforms.  Sends out a very clear message doesn't it?  That Russia is capable of manufacturing propaganda to try to incite discord in Kyiv and Ukraine.

Keep eating the spoon fed baby food they are feeding you, Ranetka.  For us big people, we'll evaluate what is real and what is propaganda.

[Ranetka]

Yeah, just like those fake Nazi goons they had marching around Maidan, who later turned out to be paid to wear the uniforms.  Sends out a very clear message doesn't it?  That Russia is capable of manufacturing propaganda to try to incite discord in Kyiv and Ukraine.

Keep eating the spoon fed baby food they are feeding you, Ranetka.  For us big people, we'll evaluate what is real and what is propaganda.

I do not think so. I do not need someone to tell me. I just u-tube and then I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. I do not need someone to "feed" me the propaganda, I saw hundreds of people marching. And I understood what they were saying too. I do not need journalists or commentators explained me whats going on, I can go on towns' website and read people's comments. Or I can ask someone on unrelated forum (cat forum for example) people who I was talking to for a few years - whats going on in where you live? Let's not forget my relatives who has no reason lying to me, And, of course, after I saw a tied up Berkut policeman burnt alive and heard people filming making jokes I seriously do not care what some "big people" can tell me on the subject. Propaganda - of course, is there enough truth in it - yes, enough for me to make conclusions.

[Ranetka]

I do not think so. I do not need someone to tell me. I just u-tube and then I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. I do not need someone to "feed" me the propaganda, I saw hundreds of people marching. And I understood what they were saying too. I do not need journalists or commentators explained me whats going on, I can go on towns' website and read people's comments. Or I can ask someone on unrelated forum (cat forum for example) people who I was talking to for a few years - whats going on in where you live? Let's not forget my relatives who has no reason lying to me, And, of course, after I saw a tied up Berkut policeman burnt alive and heard people filming making jokes I seriously do not care what some "big people" can tell me on the subject. Propaganda - of course, is there enough truth in it - yes, enough for me to make conclusions.

By the way, I do not even read Russian news on the subject - what for? I got plenty of info from people on the ground. The only news I watch is BBC and Al Jazeera.

[jone]

Funny thing, Ranetka,

I can read and understand Russian too.  It was awfully funny that these so called Bandera protesters only speak Russian?  Could that be because they don't know Ukrainian?  Think with your head.  Disbelieve half of what you hear and then discount the other part by 2/3rds. 

[Ranetka]

Funny thing, Ranetka,

I can read and understand Russian too.  It was awfully funny that these so called Bandera protesters only speak Russian?  Could that be because they don't know Ukrainian?  Think with your head.  Disbelieve half of what you hear and then discount the other part by 2/3rds.

I understand Ukrainian. I understand written Ukrainian a bit better, but the benefits of having it in recording is I can listen to spoken again and again until I am sure I got it all.

[Ranetka]

Funny thing, Ranetka,

I can read and understand Russian too.  It was awfully funny that these so called Bandera protesters only speak Russian?  Could that be because they don't know Ukrainian?  Think with your head.  Disbelieve half of what you hear and then discount the other part by 2/3rds.

They don't.

[jone]

Just once, I wish people would think about the politics being played and how that fits into what they're hearing and make adjustments for it.

Putin has made no illusions that he wants to incorporate Eastern Ukraine into Russia.  Maybe more.  The only way to do that is to try to make division between the two peoples of the country.  He doesn't have the luxury of going into the parliament building with people with ski masks over their head and overturn the elected government like he did in Crimea.  (He tried that in Donetsk, it didn't work.)  So, the most obvious way of creating unrest is to manufacture as much racial strife as possible.

Would this happen in the United States, everyone would challenge the sources.  But, as Ukraine is relatively disorganized right now, that is difficult to do.  We constantly have fringe groups that do things that the great majority of the population think is wrong.  We call it 'Freedom of Speech'.  It is something that is lacking right now in Russia.  However, it is not above the Russian special forces to go into Ukraine and do everything possible to try and create strife.  The scenes every day Ukrainians are seeing are manufactured.  There is no massive looting in Kyiv.  The streets are quite calm.  Business is getting back to normal, only a month after Maidan. 

To Ukrainians, I question you.  How many of your neighbors actually are fomenting annexation to Russia?  My guess would be:  None.  There may be an occasional idiot in town. 

The protests in Kharkiv and Donetsk are petering out.  Ukraine is checking passports and places of domicile and investigating those that are out on the streets.  They are busing them back to Russia.

Ultimately, the only way that Russia can annex these areas (not Crimea) into Russia is by force.  My belief is that Putin now has no choice but to invade.  Not for the reasons of protecting Russian speakers in Ukraine.  But because within two years he will be ousted from power as Ukraine becomes more and more distant from Russia.   A situation which he, with his trigger finger in Crimea, created.

[Ranetka]

Someone who knows more about Ukrainian history that I do asked me to correct factual inaccuracy in my message, pointing out that there is no evidence that Bandera himself took part in ethnic cleansing. As at the time the organization he (used to I guess) lead carried on the Volhyn massacre he was in concentration camp.

[calmissile]

Jon,

Well written post and accurate as best I have been able to determine.  There are numerous stories in the Kiev Post today that are worth reading.  It appears that the interim government is making a significant effort to weed out corruption.

If someone wishes to sort out and post links to the Kiev Post articles, it might serve to shed some light on the current activities of the government in Ukraine.

Kiev is calm (according to my wife).  Civilians from the self-defense force are riding in police cars to prevent the cops from taking bribes.  It appears that not only the citizens in general, but the interim government is serious about eliminating the corruption of previous administrations.

Civil servants working in government offices, taking bribes to expedite paperwork handling has come to a screeching halt!  They are in fear of prosecution.  It appears that the anti-corruption efforts are having an immediate affect.  Considering that the interim government has only been in place for a month, this looks like a very positive step in the right direction.

[Jumper]

Can somebody please tell me where this fascist angle comes from?  My wife believes it and she is from Western Ukraine.  I have tried to get out of her why these people who to me want a Ukraine of their own are fascists and nazi's.  To my way of thinking the only person who is acting like Hitler is Putin himself.  His annexation of Crimea to me is exactly the same as Hitler marching into the Sudetenland, to protect the poor Germans who were being persecuted.  Maybe I am too simple minded or maybe I just dont get the Russian mindset, but can somebody explain it to me?

Because there is something to it.
how much is propaganda is one issue.

Yet many Ukrainians themselves see the leaders of protester in several cities as being leaning far towards nazism and fascism.
My wife ,her friends ,and family are all Ukrainian.
They do fear Russia taking over their country ,and city,
as it seems Putin can do so. Threy do not view it as some show of sterenght, actually a sign of (perhaps understandably) simply taking advantage of another's weakness, they view it as Russia is not picking on some country that can realistically fight back. Ukraine became divided and  weak, with few allies.
 Yet in my experience lately, many Ukrainians equally fear what they view as  quite extremist groups that may take over Ukraine now.
So they fear both.
 Not every Ukrainian see's this as some black and white issue as portrayed in the media. Despite all the hyperbole surrounding all this..
One might  find a lot of Ukrainians don't view either outcome as good for their country , and if accurately polled ,or voted, would vote for neither.
 They are left wondering what will be, and havn't much hope it will change for the better in either case.
 I'm certain that's far closer to reality for the everyday citizen of Ukraine, than the media, or the various hysterical ramblings or posturings from politicians or citizens of other countries  portray.

 

[Chicagoguy]

We shall see.
Friends of mine who moved to U.S. from Ukraine as young adult businessmen bragged to me that Ukraine was Number 1.   
In corruption.
 
Sometimes this becomes so ingrained that they think of it as a right. For prosecutors in IL. Cook County and Chicago it is full time employment. I had three U.S. congressmen in a row go to jail in my district. In the last election I voted for the Republican who had previously been convicted as a felon with the thought that at least we would know ahead of time what we were getting.
 

[ML]

Yet in my experience lately, many Ukrainians equally fear what they view as  quite extremist groups that may take over Ukraine now.

Svoboda party only got something like 10% of the vote in last Rada elections.

[whynotme]

Someone who knows more about Ukrainian history that I do asked me to correct factual inaccuracy in my message, pointing out that there is no evidence that Bandera himself took part in ethnic cleansing. As at the time the organization he (used to I guess) lead carried on the Volhyn massacre he was in concentration camp.

They deleted link about the Volhyn massacre I've posted here ... cuz it was too unpleasant for their sensitive souls

[AnonMod]

There is nothing in the moderation log which indicates any of your posts have been moderated or deleted.

Generally, we do not delete links on this forum and certainly not on historical matters.