Somebody explain this to me

[Muzh]

From Estonia to Azerbaijan: American Strategy After Ukraine 

By George Friedman
 
As I discussed last week, the fundamental problem that Ukraine poses for Russia, beyond a long-term geographical threat, is a crisis in internal legitimacy. Russian President Vladimir Putin has spent his time in power rebuilding the authority of the Russian state within Russia and the authority of Russia within the former Soviet Union. The events in Ukraine undermine the second strategy and potentially the first. If Putin cannot maintain at least Ukrainian neutrality, then the world's perception of him as a master strategist is shattered, and the legitimacy and authority he has built for the Russian state is, at best, shaken.
 
[More...]
 
From Estonia to Azerbaijan: American Strategy After Ukraine | Stratfor
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[Larry1]

I talked about another massacre ... the name sounds very familiar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

I wanted to expand on this for the benefit of readers who are not so familiar with the history of FSU.  As whynotme wrote, there were two massacres in places with names that are very similar.  The massacre whynotme mentioned occurred in what is now Belarus, which during the war was the Westernmost part of the USSR. Nazis burned the village of Khatyn and murdered the villagers.  There is a famous memorial there now.  The Nazis were particularly brutal in Belarus.  There was substantial partisan activity there.  After the partisans hit the Nazis the Nazis would retaliate by killing villagers in the area.  They burned over 5,000 villages and killed around a quarter of the population.

The massacre Sandro referenced above is the Katyn Forest massacre, in which the Soviets murdered around 22,000 Polish prisoners. 

People who are interested in reading further can pick up a copy of Timothy Snyder's book "Bloodlands".

[ML]

A little shift in topic here . . . but this just gives me chills to think of how cold and cruel people can be.

= = = = = = =

Party leaders were given numerical quotas of "enemies" to be turned in and arrested.[42] In June 1937, the Politburo set a quota of 35,000 enemies to be arrested in Moscow province; 5,000 of these were to be executed.

In reply, Khrushchev asked that 2,000 wealthy peasants, or kulaks living in Moscow be killed in part fulfillment of the quota.

In any event, only two weeks after receiving the Politburo order, Khrushchev was able to report to Stalin that 41,305 "criminal and kulak elements" had been arrested. Of the arrestees, according to Khrushchev, 8,500 deserved execution.[42]


In late 1937, Stalin appointed Khrushchev as head of the Communist Party in Ukraine, and Khrushchev duly left Moscow for Kiev, again the Ukrainian capital, in January 1938.[46] Ukraine had been the site of extensive purges, with the murdered including professors in Stalino whom Khrushchev greatly respected. The high ranks of the Party were not immune; the Central Committee of Ukraine was so devastated that it could not convene a quorum.

After Khrushchev's arrival, the pace of arrests accelerated.[47] All but one member of the Ukrainian Politburo Organizational Bureau, and Secretariat were arrested. Almost all government officials and Red Army commanders were replaced.[48] During the first few months after Khrushchev's arrival, almost everyone arrested received the death penalty.[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev

[Gator]

From Estonia to Azerbaijan: American Strategy After Ukraine 

So Friedman says that America needs to engage and confront the Russians or lose the Estonia-Azerbaijan alliance that contains Russia.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha..........

sorry, please wait while I collect myself................

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ha Ha Ha.


Excuse me, I could not help myself.  I laugh not at Friedman's position, but at the thought that our community organizer President would ever consider confronting Russia.  First, it is not what appeasing, socialistic, liberals do.  Second, it would be saying Mitt Romney was correct because Mitt warned us during the campaign that Russia was our greatest threat

If Friedman is correct, the West can say goodbye to the alliance encircling Russia.  Hopefully there is another way. 

[Muzh]

So Friedman says that America needs to engage and confront the Russians or lose the Estonia-Azerbaijan alliance that contains Russia.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha..........

sorry, please wait while I collect myself................

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ha Ha Ha.


Excuse me, I could not help myself.  I laugh not at Friedman's position, but at the thought that our community organizer President would ever consider confronting Russia.  First, it is not what appeasing, socialistic, liberals do.  Second, it would be saying Mitt Romney was correct because Mitt warned us during the campaign that Russia was our greatest threat

If Friedman is correct, the West can say goodbye to the alliance encircling Russia.  Hopefully there is another way.

Boy Gator. Maybe someday you'll realize that it does NOT matter who is in the White House. It is who rings the bell every morning at 8 AM and then again at 4 PM at N 40° 42' 25.0164", W 74° 0' 40.1466"

[whynotme]

You better explore ur own history and look for other analogies. For example, think about the Japanese and Aleuts who were U.S. citizens and were sent to concentration camps by your government http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment. So you have no moral right to yell about the unfortunate fate of the Crimean Tatars and Chechens. And Pearl Harbor you got as a result of own provocations against Japan. Lastly, let's join the 13 British colonies back 

Òàê ÷òî êòî òóò â áåëîì? 

[jone]

Whynotme,

I will tell you that you understand our country very poorly.  You have continued to make a mockery of it and all of the people who live here.  Your outspoken challenges are offensive to me and your easy dismissal to those from the United States who love the Russian people is downright rude.

The internment of US Citizens in WWII who happened to be Japanese Americans was wrong. 

The US admitted as much, paying each internee $20,000, with an apology from the country.  That same article that you posted included this statement:

"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great injustice, and it will never be repeated."

That is the mark of a country coming to grips with an injustice.  Show me once, in Russia's history, where the government has apologized for the internment, displacement and murder of the millions of people in it's history - or remuneration for its errors. 

To my knowledge, in spite of this injustice, no Japanese Americans were tortured or killed.  Russia has no such stellar history.    We may like (even love) the Russian people.  But the pograms historic in the Russian society, less than a hundred years ago, display a complete breakdown of civilization.  Our great concern is that history seems to be repeating itself with the dismissal of free press and human rights currently being experienced in your country.

You are happy to point out the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, but totally ignore the fact that your country massacred 22,000 polish officers, in effect, to attempt to influence the future of the Polish state.  There is a reverence that is being discussed these days in your country surrounding Stalin and the role he played in the Soviet Union.   Is it any wonder that the peoples of Eastern Europe are scared of your government?

If I were a German, I would not be proud of my country's past and would make mighty sure that such situation as the Nazi movement never happened again.  But Soviet Russia killed more people than the Germans.  How can you sit there and point fingers at the Japanese internment?  And how can you not now be advocating that Russia will never again displace its people and send them off to gulags to starve and die?

[GQBlues]

...That is the mark of a country coming to grips with an injustice.  Show me once, in Russia's history, where the government has apologized for the internment, displacement and murder of the millions of people in it's history - or remuneration for its errors. 

To my knowledge, in spite of this injustice, no Japanese Americans were tortured or killed.  Russia has no such stellar history...

She is right. You should first pay attention to your own country's legacy before criticizing another...


"....Some Japanese Americans died in the camps due to inadequate medical care and the emotional stresses they encountered. Several were killed by military guards posted for allegedly resisting orders.

At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976)....."


"....In the detention centers, families lived in substandard housing, had inadequate nutrition and health care, and had their livelihoods destroyed: many continued to suffer psychologically long after their release...."


http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html?PHPSESSID=032e01e0d9275e2e1d447e604074cc9c

[BillyB]

I don't know about you guys but I'm not living in history. We're living in modern times so how does our countries rank now?


I think America has learned much, come a long way, and has shed more blood than other nations to improve the rights of others starting with the American Civil War. We're not perfect. The important thing is to get better, not worse.

[GQBlues]

I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map!

I am determined that if they have one drop of Japanese blood in them, they must go to camp!

Bendetsen joined others who had been involved in the exclusion and internment in opposition to the Congressional hearings which determined that there had been no just cause for the actions taken against the Japanese American communities. He was adamantly opposed to the calls for reparations to be paid to internment camp survivors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Bendetsen

[Gator]

Boy Gator. Maybe someday you'll realize that it does NOT matter who is in the White House. It is who rings the bell every morning at 8 AM and then again at 4 PM at N 40° 42' 25.0164", W 74° 0' 40.1466"

Known that for decades.  The business of America is business.  Look at what the energy industry accomplished in oil and gas under a President who is against oil and gas.  With a different President, they could have done even more (can you say Federal lands, pipelines, etc.), and we would not have wasted Federal money on failed green energy experiments. 

However, the energy businesses are not the ones to stand up to Russia other than offer alternatives to Europe for replacing energy from Russia.  Direct confrontation  must come from the man with the big stick. 

[whynotme]

Whynotme,

I will tell you that you understand our country very poorly.  You have continued to make a mockery of it and all of the people who live here.  Your outspoken challenges are offensive to me and your easy dismissal to those from the United States who love the Russian people (damn hypocrities) is downright rude.

The same words I can say to you. Just replace USA with Russia. And realize that it was not me who started this anti-russian bacchanalia here. So zip it and be quiet. 

[SANDRO43]

The internment of US Citizens in WWII who happened to be Japanese Americans was wrong.

IIRC, that measure was applied not only to them, but to quite a few German and Italian US citizens, too .

[whynotme]

No country which can be proud of all the pages of its history exists.
Start from ur own first before poking around in ours.  And not from wiki-version which differs depends on language it written.
In the history of my family there is my great-grandfather, who was shot on the White Czechs in Vladivostok, my dads family was exiled in Eastern Kazakhstan, his father (my grandfather) spent 15 years in gulag (probably thats why he managed to survive) and rehabilitated, there is my mother's family, dispossessed in 1930th, uncle, who finished the war in Berlin, grandfather, who fought on Khalkin Gole.
Who are you to lecture me in Russian history and point what should Russian president do?
And yes, my grandfather was Georgian and my mothers family - ukrainians.

[jone]

Whynotme,

You have had nothing complimentary to say about the Americans that you interact with.  You specifically told all of us that if your future husband says anything bad about Russia that you will pack your bags and go home (would you like to see your quote?)

You have paraded your disdain for Americans in repeated posts, again and again.  And no, I don't have to zip my lips because I say things you don't like to hear.

You have taken a friend who supported you and made him into someone that thinks not much of you.

Then when you are trying to point out what bad people Ukrainians are by pointing to an ethnic cleansing, you take offense when I point out that during the same timeframe that such happened, your country massacred 22,000 Polish officers, not to mention the 100's of thousands who died in the forced marches and gulags of Siberia.  Your response is that we treated our Japanese Americans bad in WWII.  We did.  But we did not do wholesale killing of them.  As GQ was so quick to point out there were a number of deaths through improper medical care.  That does not equal Soviet History.

If you can't stand the heat, you shouldn't be cooking borsch.

As stated before, I have no dog in this hunt.  I have great affection for the Russian people and the Ukrainian people.  But when people come in here with cannons blasting after their country invades another, you will get push back from me.

[whynotme]

But the pograms historic in the Russian society, less than a hundred years ago, display a complete breakdown of civilization.  Our great concern is that history seems to be repeating itself with the dismissal of free press and human rights currently being experienced in your country.

You are happy to point out the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, but totally ignore the fact that your country massacred 22,000 polish officers, in effect, to attempt to influence the future of the Polish state.  There is a reverence that is being discussed these days in your country surrounding Stalin and the role he played in the Soviet Union.   Is it any wonder that the peoples of Eastern Europe are scared of your government?

You are just complete ignoramus in history. Start from your favorite wikipedia for the begining

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919%E2%80%9324)

Nobody denies the Katyn tragedy, Poles have already received official regrets from Russia
However, Poles are not in a hurry to apologize for killing of Russian war prisoners where were much more victims. No apologize to Lithuania and Belarus for 20year systematic destruction of the population when its territory was a part of Poland.

And you're just a filthy person who tries to manipulate the facts of my personal life due the lack of arguments.

[jone]

Filthy, huh?

Better get your Western Idioms correct.  You use that slang here in America, you will be called out for it.  As such, I know you are a Russian speaker first and don't understand the connotations. 

As for the rape of Poland, Russia is into it about five times.  The Poles only invaded Russia once, in the early 1600s.  Each time Russia came across the border,  tens of thousands of Poles died.  Get your history correct, my dear.  The reason I brought up the Polish officers massacre was to offset your claims of Nationalism by Ukraine. 

Don't you think it unfair that all of the men in Ukraine between the ages of 20 and 50 are now consigned to military duty because Russia is saying that they have the right to invade?  I would be upset if I were living in Ukraine!  Make no mistake.  If Russia invades Ukraine (aside from the invasion of Crimea) many of her sons will come home in body bags.

A funny story:  I was in Suzdal.  We had a gal assigned to me to go over the local history.  She was stating how rotten the Poles were because they advanced as far as Suzdal in their conquest stated above.  I laughed and she stopped me and inquired why I was laughing.  I giver her a historical account of how many times Russia had invaded Poland and she turned bright red. 

I am not in a pissing contest to see how much history I know compared to how much you know (although apparently you are).  One of the great things about America is that if you call out the President here for making stupid moves, like we have done with Putin, that doesn't make us an enemy of the state.  It simply makes us a Republican. 

The reason that the Russian people are in lockstep with Putin right now is that they are all drinking the Kool Aid that comes from the Kremlin.   I believe that as much support as he is getting right now, it will evaporate over the next year or two when the Russian people find out how much the Ukrainians hate them for what they have done and how much this adventurism has cost Russia - its economy and its friendships.

As for you disliking America, Whynotme, I will tell you that one great thing about living here is you have that right.  You can be a woman who dislikes America intensely, but that simply means that you have a differing opinion here in the United States.  You will be entitled to it.    That doesn't make people want to like you, though.

[whynotme]

As for you disliking America, Whynotme, I will tell you that one great thing about living here is you have that right.  You can be a woman who dislikes America intensely, but that simply means that you have a differing opinion here in the United States.  You will be entitled to it.    That doesn't make people want to like you, though.

Don't distort facts about my dislike of  America. It is nothing for me to love as well as to hate there. It is just a place where I'm going to live for a while, hoping that ALL its idiots are represented at RWD already and will not meet them in real life.

[Daveman]

Don't distort facts about my dislike of  America. It is nothing for me to love as well as to hate there. It is just a place where I'm going to live for a while, hoping that ALL its idiots are represented at RWD already and will not meet them in real life.

Well god certainly won't hear that prayer.  You'll encounter many more idiots.  I'm quite certain, and I've stated this here at RWD before, that at least 90% of the people on the planet are indeed idiots with most of whom being of the blithering persuasion.

In the mean time, while preparing for future encounters with the descendants of Idiocrates, both of you probably want to consider taking this exchange in a different, less personally idiocratic direction.

It's a decent discussion. Don't muck it up.

[Slumba]

Don't distort facts about my dislike of  America. It is nothing for me to love as well as to hate there. It is just a place where I'm going to live for a while, hoping that ALL its idiots are represented at RWD already and will not meet them in real life.

Sorry to disappoint you, but, you are wrong.  Very wrong... 

[jone]

Most of the people I've met are quite like me, here in America.  There are very few I can't get along with over a brewski.

I am happy to hear that Whynotme doesn't hate all of us.

As for backing off, I'm all for it.  She was always a friend of mine.  I guess now I'm just an ignoramus and filthy.

Signed,

One of the Idiots of RWD

[whynotme]

Most of the people I've met are quite like me, here in America.  There are very few I can't get along with over a brewski.

I am happy to hear that Whynotme doesn't hate all of us.

As for backing off, I'm all for it.  She was always a friend of mine.  I guess now I'm just an ignoramus and filthy.

Signed,

One of the Idiots of RWD

I don't remember we were friends. If a person doesn't spit in your face during a meeting, it doesn't mean he is your friend. Strange u don't know that in ur age 
And I don't hate all of you of course. Hate sounds too loud for that.

[whynotme]

I believe that as much support as he is getting right now, it will evaporate over the next year or two when the Russian people find out how much the Ukrainians hate them for what they have done and how much this adventurism has cost Russia - its economy and its friendships.

Not recent event disconnected our two nation. Yes, Russia is to blame for the fact that in last 20 years it didn't pay attention to the fact our neighbors got rusofobija as national idea. They did it not on their own, there were western instructors for that. I discovered this phenomenon about 15 years ago in inet and marveled at the flow of mud that poured into our side. Sadly, the notion of gratitude is completely absent from the whole nation.
Only can wish Godspeed for Ukraine in its autonomous navigation. Everything will be fine for Russia in any case.
http://www.stoletie.ru/slavyanskoe_pole/rusofobija_kak_nacionalnaja_ideja_516.htm

[Muzh]

[missAmeno]