A Sad Farwell to Russia

[jone]

btw, who is ~Farwell~ and why is it (he/she) sad?

One last thing: 

I read tonight, a missive that examines an article about Putin as the good Hitler.  It was written by one of his apologists trying to examine that he was a great politician prior to 1939 when he began invading the world.  And how he was Uncle Adolph until 1941 and the invasion of the Soviet Union.  The author of the article neglects to mention in the time frame leading up to 1939 about the Book Burnings, the establishment of concentration camps and, of course the friendly Boy Scouts otherwise named the Gestapo.

If Russian Putin apologists are so far off track, then something seriously bad is going to happen. 

Here's the review of the "Good Hilter - Putin":

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-crimea-and-the-good-hitler/25322600.html

[jone]

btw, who is ~Farwell~ and why is it (he/she) sad?

Obviously someone who is an idiot and can't spell worth a damn.

[GQBlues]

 One more time. How is the ousting of a duly elected president legal and constitutional? If either of you (and poke) have any citation or link to show this, please provide it here and refute what I posted.

[BillyB]

One more time. How is the ousting of a duly elected president legal and constitutional?

One more time GQ, what is your solution? You still haven't convinced anyone Yanukovych was duly elected. First you prove he was legitimately elected and then we can talk if he was legitimately ousted.

[GQBlues]

So obviously neither of you can. Just as I thought. When challenged for facts ditch, deflect and run.

 Ok hopefully when poke gets back on, he can.

[Hammer2722]

One more time GQ, what is your solution? You still haven't convinced anyone Yanukovych was duly elected. First you prove he was legitimately elected and then we can talk if he was legitimately ousted.

Actually, he abandoned his post as President of Ukraine. Kind of hard to be acting as president when you, your family and most of your cabinet ministers are now living in Russia....

[GQBlues]

Actually, he abandoned his post as President of Ukraine. Kind of hard to be acting as president when you, your family and most of your cabinet ministers are now living in Russia....

The act of forcibly ousting always precedes abandoning. Remember that.

[Muzh]

One more time. How is the ousting of a duly elected president legal and constitutional? If either of you (and poke) have any citation or link to show this, please provide it here and refute what I posted.

Didn't the man flee the country?
 
I could see your point that it was illegal and unconstitutional to dismember the legally elected President of a country. But THE MAN FLED!! He should have remained on his Presidential villa, kept all the gold trimings in place and waited for the throng to behead him and then toruture and kill him. But he didn't. So what is the Rada to do when the duly elected President says: I got my billions, FUCK YOU!!! Wait for him to come back to the country, be impeached by two-thirds of the Rada and then be beheaded??

[fathertime]

Didn't the man flee the country?
 
I could see your point that it was illegal and unconstitutional to dismember the legally elected President of a country. But THE MAN FLED!! He should have remained on his Presidential villa, kept all the gold trimings in place and waited for the throng to behead him and then toruture and kill him. But he didn't. So what is the Rada to do when the duly elected President says: I got my billions, FUCK YOU!!! Wait for him to coma back to the country, be impeached by two-thirds of the Rada and then beheaded??

After what happened to recent leaders like Quadaffy...I would have got the hell outta there too if I felt I was about to be overrun...NOBODY wants to take a bayonet up the anus....I think he could have helped his cause by reappearing more quickly though...as far as I remember he was incommunicado for a few days...I'd like to know why that was the case. 


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

Didn't the man flee the country?
 
I could see your point that it was illegal and unconstitutional to dismember the legally elected President of a country. But THE MAN FLED!! He should have remained on his Presidential villa, kept all the gold trimings in place and waited for the throng to behead him and then toruture and kill him. But he didn't. So what is the Rada to do when the duly elected President says: I got my billions, FUCK YOU!!! Wait for him to coma back to the country, be impeached by two-thirds of the Rada and then beheaded??

Very likely in the not-too-distant future, that would make a great Hollywood rendition on this crisis, Muzh 

Heck, the first protocol even in our own country that when an attack occurs is to safely keep away (and separate) our Potus and the 2nd-in-line from harm, no?

You'd get no argument from me about the geezer being corrupt. But that's a whole 'nother matter altogether. Had the protest remained peaceful and the country remained within the confines of its constitution and paved a legal way to impeach Yanu, then it's a totally new ballgame. But I also understand that's likely more of a pipe dream than not. Besides, there's a high probability that isn't in the US/EU planned scheme of things.

The end game of this is, we are openly supporting, and likely assisted in its initiation, an illegal overturn of a legitimate government in Ukraine and thereby interfering once again (which we're really phocking good at. Yes, like Russia, only better) in another country's internal affairs for nefarious reasons.

It's become obvious our 'hands' are not clean in this crisis, Muzh.
 

[jone]

Here's the fun part.  The Constitution of Ukraine is not the same as the Constitution of the United States.  In the US we have a Constitutional amendment process that is very cumbersome, intentionally. 

In Ukraine, the Constitution is amended depending on what week it is.  And the week previous to Maidan it was The Party of Region's turn to modify.  So they modified it and gave all the power to the President.  The Rada was a rubber stamp body.  (Sound familiar, Russia?)

You have repeatedly brought up that Yanu. was a duly elected President of the country.  But even if a President is duly elected, it doesn't give him power to install himself as a dictator.

So, if someone were asking me what the purpose was of Maidan, and why was it not illegal, I would point out the above segment and explain that the above framework and the ability to rape and pillage the country was what the Maidan protesters were protesting. 

Now, you can say that there was US involvement.  I don't doubt that there was.  But to the extent of fomenting the entire shebang?  I just don't believe it.  I have friends of mine who traveled from Kharkiv to Kyiv, just to pay respect to the people who fought and died at Maidan. 

These are a very patriotic people.  They will fight to maintain their country.  Russia is doing everything in its power to bring them down, to destabilize them.

[GQBlues]

So I read your emotional *opinion*. Good.

Now can you give me some facts that the ousting of this president is legal and within Ukraine's constitution? Again, I offer you that based on their *presiding* constitution, a three-quarter majority (338) is required to legally oust its' president. If this is not correct, please provide us the citation.

[jone]

So I read your emotional *opinion*. Good.

Now can you give me some facts that the ousting of this president is legal and within Ukraine's constitution? Again, I offer you that based on their *presiding* constitution, a three-quarter majority (338) is required to legally oust its' president. If this is not correct, please provide us the citation.

The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs.

Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect, the BBC's Ukraine analyst Olexiy Solohubenko reports.

Which part of constitutional majority are you unclear about?

[Muzh]

Very likely in the not-too-distant future, that would make a great Hollywood rendition on this crisis, Muzh 

Heck, the first protocol even in our own country that when an attack occurs is to safely keep away (and separate) our Potus and the 2nd-in-line from harm, no?

You'd get no argument from me about the geezer being corrupt. But that's a whole 'nother matter altogether. Had the protest remained peaceful and the country remained within the confines of its constitution and paved a legal way to impeach Yanu, then it's a totally new ballgame. But I also understand that's likely more of a pipe dream than not. Besides, there's a high probability that isn't in the US/EU planned scheme of things.
 

So far we are in agreement.

The end game of this is, we are openly supporting, and likely assisted in its initiation, an illegal overturn of a legitimate government in Ukraine and thereby interfering once again (which we're really phocking good at. Yes, like Russia, only better) in another country's internal affairs for nefarious reasons.

It's become obvious our 'hands' are not clean in this crisis, Muzh.

Now this is where thing get dicey.
 
The Midan people did a very good job in containing provocateurs from both sides. The demonstration was very peaceful and any tme there were violent altercations the self-defense people would weed them out, embarrass them publicly and tried to expel them from their compounds.
 
Then the shit hit the fan. When the snipers started killing people the demonstration stopped being peaceful. You are not seriously saying that the US was responsible for that, are you? After all the reports available pointing the finger at the FSB.
 
This was coldly calculated and not by the US. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we are angels and I know for a fact that we were manipulating a lot of stuff. But the order and the execution to shoot to kill was done by the FSB and that is what cascaded into the scumbag President packing the gold fixtures and flee.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The Midan people did a very good job in containing provocateurs from both sides. The demonstration was very peaceful and any tme there were violent altercations the self-defense people would weed them out, embarrass them publicly and tried to expel them from their compounds.

You contradict yourself.  You can't have a peaceful demonstration with violent altercations.  If it was purely peaceful, I could agree but it wasn't and if violence occurred during any demonstration, in any western country, it would have been stopped by police or military action.


As for the snipers, you can speculate who sent them into action but I haven't seen any proof to make up my opinion one way or another.

[GQBlues]

The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs.

Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect, the BBC's Ukraine analyst Olexiy Solohubenko reports.

Which part of constitutional majority are you unclear about?

jone-

The math I rely heavily on tells me these 2 things. 328 is exactly 10 less than 338. 338 represents the three-fourths majority in Ukraine's parliament, thus 328 falls short of it.

Which math do you rely on?

[Muzh]

You contradict yourself.  You can't have a peaceful demonstration with violent altercations.  If it was purely peaceful, I could agree but it wasn't and if violence occurred during any demonstration, in any western country, it would have been stopped by police or military action.


As for the snipers, you can speculate who sent them into action but I haven't seen any proof to make up my opinion one way or another.

Are you one of those who will say something just for the hell of saying something?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Are you one of those who will say something just for the hell of saying something?

Ah, it seems you are projecting since you failed to address what I posted by making it personal, yet, again.  Muzh, take a break, come back when you can discuss a topic without having to make it personal.


Yours truly, the rebel.

[Muzh]

 

[GQBlues]

...Now this is where thing get dicey.
 
The Midan people did a very good job in containing provocateurs from both sides. The demonstration was very peaceful and any tme there were violent altercations the self-defense people would weed them out, embarrass them publicly and tried to expel them from their compounds.
 
Then the shit hit the fan. When the snipers started killing people the demonstration stopped being peaceful. You are not seriously saying that the US was responsible for that, are you? After all the reports available pointing the finger at the FSB.
 
This was coldly calculated and not by the US. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we are angels and I know for a fact that we were manipulating a lot of stuff. But the order and the execution to shoot to kill was done by the FSB and that is what cascaded into the scumbag President packing the gold fixtures and flee.

IMO, it wasn't too long ago *we* almost committed ourselves to a pretty silly sin and armed the Syrian rebels in their fight to oust another president, remember that? Only to have Putin openly stop us from doing so by citing arming the rebels is actually arming Al-Qaeda because a huge part of the uprising actually included these known terrorist group. Hell, McCain wanted to send them predatory drones. LOL.

We read reports that Bashar Al-Assad used WMD. Then we also read reports that 'no', the rebels used it after the Obama red line.

I tend to look at this with 'known' facts. Chevron, fracking contracts, amount of gas deposit in Ukraine, where does EU stand on this issue and where do the US? Where does Russia stand? How will it affects one from the other?

There already are many factual events that had taken place even before any 'gunshot' was fired - regardless of *by whom*. The ol' adage..*follow the money* always seem to play out over many of these events and I no longer believe these are coincidences any more, man.

[LiveFromUkraine]

IMO, it wasn't too long ago *we* almost committed ourselves to a pretty silly sin and armed the Syrian rebels in their fight to oust another president, remember that? Only to have Putin openly stop us from doing so by citing arming the rebels is actually arming Al-Qaeda because a huge part of the uprising actually included these known terrorist group. Hell, McCain wanted to send them predatory drones. LOL.

We read reports that Bashar Al-Assad used WMD. Then we also read reports that 'no', the rebels used it after the Obama red line.

I tend to look at this with 'known' facts. Chevron, fracking contracts, amount of gas deposit in Ukraine, where does EU stand on this issue and where do the US? Where does Russia stand? How will it affects one from the other?

There already are many factual events that had taken place even before any 'gunshot' was fired - regardless of *by whom*. The ol' adage..*follow the money* always seem to play out over many of these events and I no longer believe these are coincidences any more, man.

lol Don't expect sheep to follow logic.

[jone]

jone-

The math I rely heavily on tells me these 2 things. 328 is exactly 10 less than 338. 338 represents the three-fourths majority in Ukraine's parliament, thus 328 falls short of it.

Which math do you rely on?

The one that was quoted by the BBC.  Which are you quoting on?  It seems that you are splitting hairs for your own purposes.  If reputable news sources say that they they have a Constitutional Majority, then I tend to believe them.  There is no reason not to. 

I realize this overturns your line of argument here on the forum, but I am not making this up.  Those of us who watched the events unfold were satisfied on the day that the majority was issued that it was legal.

[fathertime]

IMO, it wasn't too long ago *we* almost committed ourselves to a pretty silly sin and armed the Syrian rebels in their fight to oust another president, remember that? Only to have Putin openly stop us from doing so by citing arming the rebels is actually arming Al-Qaeda because a huge part of the uprising actually included these known terrorist group. Hell, McCain wanted to send them predatory drones. LOL.

I've come to the conclusion that we NEED Putin in the mix.  Thankfully he has secured those ports.  Without a strong Russia, there will be that much less to stop us from fomenting and usurping whomever we feel like.  We the people, don't have much say in these things, but a formidable world opponent can keep a bully in check.  Of course overall I'm pro-US since I live here and own a lot of Chevron stock, but I'm convinced it is in our interests to keep our govt. from getting too aggressive or intrusive in other nation's internal problems. 


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

The one that was quoted by the BBC.  Which are you quoting on?  It seems that you are splitting hairs for your own purposes.  If reputable news sources say that they they have a Constitutional Majority, then I tend to believe them.  There is no reason not to. 

I realize this overturns your line of argument here on the forum, but I am not making this up.  Those of us who watched the events unfold were satisfied on the day that the majority was issued that it was legal.

One of these days you'll learn the difference between *facts* from *opinions*. Maybe then, I may even re-consider having a discussion with you on issues like this.

When you are citing *facts*, one need not offer an opinion, or cite opinions of others. You simply let everyone else joust and make things up for their basis.

But I gotta tell you...it's really fun being on this side, man. Maybe someday, you'll understand the feeling. So keep the faith.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I've come to the conclusion that we NEED Putin in the mix.  Thankfully he has secured those ports.  Without a strong Russia, there will be that much less to stop us from fomenting and usurping whomever we feel like.  We the people, don't have much say in these things, but a formidable world opponent can keep a bully in check.  Of course overall I'm pro-US since I live here and own a lot of Chevron stock, but I'm convinced it is in our interests to keep our govt. from getting too aggressive or intrusive in other nation's internal problems. 


Fathertime!

I stated this before in another thread.  We need opposing countries to keep each other in check. 


Putin checked the west in a major way.  He showed that the west would back down when push comes to shove.  Any other countries who think the west will come to aid based on promises should think twice.