A Sad Farwell to Russia

[LiveFromUkraine]

Why? Because the American revolution was our revolution so it's an honorable and special revolution compared to all others? France gave us weapons. France gave us money. France encouraged us to go for it and they fought along side Americans. Without their help, it may have never happened. Maybe large scale riots but not a revolution without proper backing. At the time nobody thought the American revolution was going to amount to what we have today. At the time, people of the world viewed it as a France vs. Briton dispute. The squabbles between major powers today aren't something new. It's been going on for all history. I don't understand all the shock pertaining to America's foreign policies. If anything, it's been mild compared to other empires.

The main reason is the people voted Yanu into office.  He won and you have no proof the elections were rigged.   I have never heard of a revolution that ousts the president but keeps the parliament.  Sounds kind of ridiculous to me.


I would also be interested in what proof you have in terms of the majority of people were behind this revolution.  Was this the work of the majority of the people or was it a small group that were helped from outside forces?  I would think that difference matters if you really want to consider this a revolution for the people.


My shock comes from you stating the people will get legit elections if America is involved yet go on to say they are in for their own special interests.  You can't have both.   It isn't like we have a recording of America government personnel talking about who should run Ukraine.  What the hell happened to those legit elections man.


 Besides that, I am mainly shocked that others don't see through the lip service we call foreign policy for what it really is, special interest for the corps and elite.

[fathertime]

Oh, I haven't run away.  I just have wonderful things happening in my life right now that don't pertain to your sorry butt.

Here's the link regarding your apology.  Once again, you try to talk your way out of things.  I can imagine what your discourse sounds like at home.  It must be very entertaining.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.msg351796#msg351796

 

  You earlier trumpeted that I demanded an apology from a FSU woman on this site.  You have provided a link that does NOT show that at all.  Are you an idiot or something?  You made the claim. You are running away from admitting you 'ran your gums'.  It would have been very easy for you to admit 'yeah I was wrong' (like usual)...instead you put up a meaningless link that says nothing, in hopes of exactly what?  Your stature falls by the second when you fail to 'man up' and admit you were a baseless allegation.   If you can't admit to a small thing like that, what else are you hiding or misstating?

Oh, I haven't run away.  I just have wonderful things happening in my life right now that don't pertain to your sorry butt.

Here's the link regarding your apology.  Once again, you try to talk your way out of things.  I can imagine what your discourse sounds like at home.  It must be very entertaining.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.msg351796#msg351796

As for your constant commentary on the way people think about Maidan and their loved ones, maybe you should give it a break.  Do you realize that the people you're beating the sh&t out of with your opinions have family over there that are awaiting the winds of war?

Let me give a couple of examples:

Muzh, who's wife is from Ukraine, has extended family all throughout Eastern Ukraine.  Calmissile, who you just zeroed in on, has a wife who keeps the gas tank of her car filled so that if she needs to make the run to the Polish border with her young daughter if she can.  Many others have people in the Eastern region right now.  I, myself, have good friends in Kharkiv and an extended family member who's mother is in Poltava.

For many of us this is personal.

That's why your slam shot at me an hour ago about how I really want the invasion to happen because it would prove me right?  Well, I had already told you yesterday that I hoped you were right and I was wrong.  Unfortunately for my friends and all of our extended families I don't think that will come to pass.

I have no trouble admitting that I was wrong with LFU.  I now tend to take his point of view that there were mistakes made by the Rada in dismissing Yanu.  But if you were really following this forum and knew the people here, you would realize that the telling post of the last few days was when Muzh could not believe the Oligarch from Donetsk was double dealing.  That is, most likely, the nail in the coffin.  As this oligarch goes, most likely will follow the rest of the country.

People who don't have a dog in the hunt should be sensitive to the guys and gals that do.  Because for them, this is not just a place to prove yourself right.  It is a place to come for solace and support in a very bad situation.
 

I've given my point of view, which is actually an optimistic one for Ukraine.  I've never claimed to be an expert...just a guy who has an interest in US foreign policy and worldwide politics...


  I didn't think I was mean to calmissile.  To you and muzh..yeah you guys need a good hard push back...I simply mirror the dialogue I receive from fellow posters.  If you find that you are catching shit, it is because you started doling it out.   Why don't you look back and view the dialogue between us and you will see that you cast the first stone...I know that to be the case without even looking because I don't do that.  I like to discuss the issues and exchange viewpoints. 


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

If our government focuses all our money on internal problems it will create more problems, not less. One reason our nation is healthy is because we take care of other nations and in return they take care of us. They are more likely to do business with us for keeping their nation and world a safer place. It cost money to station all those American troops in Europe, Japan, South Korea, Middle East, etc... but the returns outweigh the costs. Both world wars helped catapult America to the top, not because we stayed neutral, but because we participated.

Hey Billy,


I disagree about not focusing on internal issues...We could have a much better infrastructure, there are certain medical conditions children suffer from that much more money could be funneled into...to better lives of families here.    Science and new technology too...  In my opinion there are plenty of things to spend on here at home.   That being said, you make reasonable arguments about SOME governmental aid...From my viewpoint, I'd like to see how it is the aid is helpful to for us...in the long run..

I think I think the debt is more of a problem than you do...approaching 18 trillion soon with no end in sight...at some point we are either are going to default or inflate our way out of it (see default)...hopefully our debtor nations don't control us too much at that point.  In addition, there could come a point where enough nations band together and create a rival currency.  This is a nice country to live in, and I don't want that to change because of what I see as being too externally focused on other nations inner turmoils.   


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

...So that's why you think you're so smart. You're the first one do it. Don't stroke your ego so fast. Putin challenged it first right after it happened over a month before you opened your mouth. Most people at this forum didn't buy into it so we didn't feel a need to discuss it. You bought into it. Did you also believe Putin when he said he wasn't going to go into Ukraine, troops are only doing training exercises and there were no Russian troops in Crimea? All your arguments here are invalid because Yanukovych was never legitimately elected.

OY BillyB, you know for a stiff you do have some entertainment value: boring.

Your continued display of ignorance in matters you think you know definitely precedes you (been hanging around jone, haven't you?). But educating you have an infinitesimal to no redeeming value to me, so instead I'll do something just a tad bit less boring than engaging you - watching the Lakers.

So, you won't let us in on what you were thinking with that pose, eh? LOL.

Strip joints closed early tonight or you ran out of dollar bills?

[BillyB]

The main reason is the people voted Yanu into office.  He won and you have no proof the elections were rigged.   I have never heard of a revolution that ousts the president but keeps the parliament.  Sounds kind of ridiculous to me.


I would also be interested in what proof you have in terms of the majority of people were behind this revolution.  Was this the work of the majority of the people or was it a small group that were helped from outside forces?  I would think that difference matters if you really want to consider this a revolution for the people.

Why are you asking me for proof? Just submit the proof yourself. You've lived there, haven't you kept up with Ukrainian politics? Yanukovych was a convicted criminal and an even more corrupt leader. Anybody who had a real chance in beating him in an election got poisoned or thrown in jail. The only election he lost was a fair election monitored by the UN. It's no secret he was Russia's preferred candidate. Russia had no problems in the past leaving Crimea with Ukraine until their man got ousted.

My shock comes from you stating the people will get legit elections if America is involved yet go on to say they are in for their own special interests.  You can't have both.   It isn't like we have a recording of America government personnel talking about who should run Ukraine.  What the hell happened to those legit elections man.

Don't twist my words. America can get involved but will promote UN monitors to watch the elections, not rig the election. The smart people know the majority of Ukrainians are pro west and will elect a pro west leader in a legitimate election. America will take care of it's interests by promoting fair elections. No tricky stuff needed. Look how Russia controlled the election in Crimea. That's what they've been doing in Ukraine. Think about why Russia didn't want UN monitors involved in the Crimea election. Smart people know why. The results would've been different.

Your continued display of ignorance in matters you think you know definitely precedes you (been hanging around jone, haven't you?). But educating you have an infinitesimal to no redeeming value to me, so instead I'll do something just a tad bit less boring than engaging you - watching the Lakers.

What's those famous words of yours? "Dodge, deflect, run!" Go ahead and run to those Lakers. It's easier for you to beat those guys than me.

[GQBlues]

I'll leave you 2 things for the night, Yohan...first, a quote by Voltaire:

Madness is to hold an erroneous perception and argue perfectly from it.

...then these two words:

Hegelian Dialectic.

Don't ever say I never did anything for you now, OK?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Why are you asking me for proof? Just submit the proof yourself. You've lived there, haven't you kept up with Ukrainian politics? Yanukovych was a convicted criminal and an even more corrupt leader. Anybody who had a real chance in beating him in an election got poisoned or thrown in jail. The only election he lost was a fair election monitored by the UN. It's no secret he was Russia's preferred candidate. Russia had no problems in the past leaving Crimea with Ukraine until their man got ousted.

lol  You are the one stating the elections were rigged.  Not moi.  You are stating it was a revolution.  Not moi.


Tymoshenko is a convicted criminal and corrupt as well.  That didn't stop the west from demanding her freedom even though she went to trial and was convicted.


 Like I said, you got two options for voting, corrupt or corrupt.  Pick one!  hah

Don't twist my words. America can get involved but will promote UN monitors to watch the elections, not rig the election. The smart people know the majority of Ukrainians are pro west and will elect a pro west leader in a legitimate election. America will take care of it's interests by promoting fair elections. No tricky stuff needed. Look how Russia controlled the election in Crimea. That's what they've been doing in Ukraine. Think about why Russia didn't want UN monitors involved in the Crimea election. Smart people know why. The results would've been different.

Nice try but I don't need to twist your words.  There is a conversation with American personnel talking about who should run Ukraine.  You seemed to gloss over that in your reply but you expect me and the rest of the world to believe America will allow free elections. 


You do understand that rigging the election doesn't have to occur at the voting booths, right?  It seems a tad naive to think that having the UN monitor voting booths will beat election corruption.


I have given you two options to vote for, vote for one! Don't worry, we will make sure your vote counts.  And that is democracy in action nowadays.  Hilarious!

[BillyB]

Tymoshenko is a convicted criminal and corrupt as well.  That didn't stop the west from demanding her freedom even though she went to trial and was convicted.

Lots of people in Ukraine get a jury when on trial. Tymoshenko was refused a jury so many western nations don't see her having a fair trial. She was accused of crimes after she came close to beating Yanukovych in the last presidential election. Yanukovych isn't pissed off at those who steal from people. Nobody does it better than him, he's the master. Tymoshenko was a political foe. I'm not saying she's innocent, but that's why she went to jail.


Do you live in Ukraine because you don't agree with America's policies? It's actually a good for people to live in nations they're happy with. If I had the same hatred towards America's policies as some people here, I'd want to move too.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Lots of people in Ukraine get a jury when on trial. Tymoshenko was refused a jury so many western nations don't see her having a fair trial. She was accused of crimes after she came close to beating Yanukovych in the last presidential election. Yanukovych isn't pissed off at those who steal from people. Nobody does it better than him, he's the master. Tymoshenko was a political foe. I'm not saying she's innocent, but that's why she went to jail.

We will have to disagree on why she went to jail.  I know the western countries see it your way as well.

Do you live in Ukraine because you don't agree with America's policies? It's actually a good for people to live in nations they're happy with. If I had the same hatred towards America's policies as some people here, I'd want to move too.

I live in the US now.  I happen to love the US and don't plan on living anywhere else.   There are reasons for hating on American policies but that doesn't mean that there aren't reasons for loving the US as well.

I have traveled and lived in enough countries to know no place is perfect. 

[Muzh]

Good little sheep.    

Care to elaborate on which constitution was used to vote?  I didn't think so.


Thanks for the link.

Edited:  I just read the article and I take it at face value.  It does not go into what proof they have at all.  It states that FSB were involved but does not go into detail as to why they say that.  I don't necessarily think it isn't a possibility but certainly don't accept what I read any longer without wanting to know more about how they came to the conclusions.


It seems the only evidence is they determined the location where the snipers fired from and deduced who was in the area at the time. 


Am I missing any other facts?



How did they deduce Yanu orders the snipers or is this a case of it happened under his watch and therefore he is guilty.

Ay, we have another peach.
 
If you are too damn lazy to research OR just don't want to be proven wrong, then don't bother. I certainly won't. Feel free to stay ignorant.

[Muzh]

Cal is just trying to shut down arguments in a lame like fashion.  Sort of like Muzh.  haha  As far as I know he needs to use a translator just to talk to his wife but thinks he is some kind of expert because he is married (briefly) now.

LMAO
 
Hey peachfuzz, I sent you links and you came back stating that the info MAY be correct but to be convinvced I HAVE to provide you with more. Something akin what little tykes do with one another to shoo them away.
 
Sure, nice try.

[Muzh]

I don't know why you bother. You know he is after your goat, right?
 
 

As for the US and Russia's involvement, if you read GQ's post earlier (which was spot on - too bad he is so enamored of himself that he cannot engage meaningful dialogue) regarding fracking outside of Kharkiv, and the timing of the signing of the contracts, you have opined that the US is up to their old tricks again.  I believe that the US is involved, but not at the level that you apparently claim.  I believe that they are involved in the age old game between East and West.  I don't believe that they were arming and paying the Maidan protesters.  That is my opinion, but absent evidence, that Russia surely would have brought out by now, as we have seen FSB involvement, I asked you to prove something you could not.  So, I would simply look deeper, if I were you.  Otherwise, the Russians are our own source of information as they have the most to gain by proving US Maidan involvement.

Anyway, I want to give you some perspective on the above.
 
The US is NOT up to their old tricks again.The US has a NEW set of tricks. Same end result.
 
First of all, the US has no military might in Eastern Europe to counterattack the Russians. It would take months for the US to amass the necessary muscle to kick ass and by the time that happens you will have the USSR 2.0 in place. The would be extremely hard to defeat. Doable, but extremely hard.
 
So what are we, the US, to do? Use proxies. Keep the Russians busy spending their dwindling reserves to maintain their perceived hegemony. It's like the old looney tunes; plug a hole here and another one appears. Plug that one and another one appears. Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
The US can afford to do this forever. Russia cannot.
 
Keep that in mind.
 
Regarding if Yanukonvict was overthrown illegaly or not is irrelevant. He was lucky he did not emaulate Mussolini or Ceaușescu. However, there is still time. Some are waiting for him to make his grand entrance.
 
BTW GQ, no. I didn't have that picture. Priceless. Also, my Maidan friends in Kharkiv were not aware of that one. Thanks.

[Muzh]

  You earlier trumpeted that I demanded an apology from a FSU woman on this site.  You have provided a link that does NOT show that at all.  Are you an idiot or something?  You made the claim. You are running away from admitting you 'ran your gums'.  It would have been very easy for you to admit 'yeah I was wrong' (like usual)...instead you put up a meaningless link that says nothing, in hopes of exactly what?  Your stature falls by the second when you fail to 'man up' and admit you were a baseless allegation.   If you can't admit to a small thing like that, what else are you hiding or misstating?

LMFAO
 
Are you like this all the time? I seriously doubt it.
 
Anyway, playing your game, it was the apology you owe MissA.

[Muzh]

  I didn't think I was mean to calmissile.  To you and muzh..yeah you guys need a good hard push back...I simply mirror the dialogue I receive from fellow posters.  If you find that you are catching shit, it is because you started doling it out.   Why don't you look back and view the dialogue between us and you will see that you cast the first stone...I know that to be the case without even looking because I don't do that.  I like to discuss the issues and exchange viewpoints. 


Fathertime!
 

LMFAO
 
Do you want me to find the definition of passive-aggressive behavior?

[LiveFromUkraine]

LMAO
 
Hey peachfuzz, I sent you links and you came back stating that the info MAY be correct but to be convinvced I HAVE to provide you with more. Something akin what little tykes do with one another to shoo them away.
 
Sure, nice try.

OldCrustyDude, just because you accept opinion pieces with no facts doesn't mean the rest of us should.   I never said you had to do anything, I merely asked if you saw something that had actual facts to corroborate your opinion.   That obviously was a no which, judging from your posts, doesn't surprise me at all.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The US can afford to do this forever. Russia cannot.
 
Keep that in mind.

The US can't afford it either.  Look at our debt right now and you think we can throw more money away just because some think Russia needs to be put in place.


Sounds more like that old saying, "Cutting off the nose to spite the face."
 

Regarding if Yanukonvict was overthrown illegaly or not is irrelevant. He was lucky he did not emaulate Mussolini or Ceaușescu. However, there is still time. Some are waiting for him to make his grand entrance.

Sort of like the elections and annexation of Crimea.  It's funny how guys can argue legality doesn't matter in some aspects and then cry about others.

[Muzh]

OldCrustyDude, just because you accept opinion pieces with no facts doesn't mean the rest of us should.   I never said you had to do anything, I merely asked if you saw something that had actual facts to corroborate your opinion.   That obviously was a no which, judging from your posts, doesn't surprise me at all.

I saw the same actual facts that you've seen there, loverboy.

[Muzh]

The US can't afford it either.  Look at our debt right now and you think we can throw more money away just because some think Russia needs to be put in place.


Sounds more like that old saying, "Cutting off the nose to spite the face."
 

Sort of like the elections and annexation of Crimea.  It's funny how guys can argue legality doesn't matter in some aspects and then cry about others.

Your naivete is showing. Please cover up.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Your naivete is showing. Please cover up.

Ah, I forgot, you're a baby boomer.  Baby boomers don't care what happens past their expiration date which seems to be quickly approaching.   

[fathertime]

LMFAO
 
Do you want me to find the definition of passive-aggressive behavior?

It really doesn’t matter how YOU define ‘passive aggressive’ behavior…the reality is you get back what you put in. It is a rule of life.  If you are unable to make points, without attempting to insult then you should not whine when that is what you receive in return. 
Your posts remind me of a 60 year old PE teacher screaming at the students, frustrated that they are still teaching.  I imagine you behaving similarly around your office, maybe you do need to retire.   Perhaps you had a different touch a while back, but you have definitely lost that touch now…just look at the silliness you call ‘discussion’ amid 1000's of posts.     People are entitled to have different viewpoints and your view is just one of many.  So like it or not, you are going to read other people’s opinions, although like that old PE teacher you obviously would prefer strict adherence to your jaded gibberish.[size=78%]  [/size]



Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

OldCrustyDude, just because you accept opinion pieces with no facts doesn't mean the rest of us should.   I never said you had to do anything, I merely asked if you saw something that had actual facts to corroborate your opinion.   That obviously was a no which, judging from your posts, doesn't surprise me at all.

LFU, you NEED to accept the 'facts' like Muzh says    He knows exactly what is right and you don't.  He has had several mugs of coffee this morning and is on high alert.   A while back several posters were insisting that the people in Crimea would never side with Russia of their own free will, now even neutral writers from news organizations like CNN are admitting that the majority DID want to align with Russia.     I imagine many more events will continue to run counter to what people say here.  I'd like the whole thing to be resolved peacefully if it is possible.  I believe that limited US involvement could be helpful, but we are certainly not a credible negotiator at this point. 


Fathertime! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

LFU, you NEED to accept the 'facts' like Muzh says    He knows exactly what is right and you don't.  He has had several mugs of coffee this morning and is on high alert.   A while back several posters were insisting that the people in Crimea would never side with Russia of their own free will, now even neutral writers from news organizations like CNN are admitting that the majority DID want to align with Russia.     I imagine many more events will continue to run counter to what people say here.  I'd like the whole thing to be resolved peacefully if it is possible.  I believe that limited US involvement could be helpful, but we are certainly not a credible negotiator at this point. 


Fathertime!

Well, damn FT, if I had known about the coffee, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt.  I need to go back over that article because all I saw was an illegal government talking about how bad the previous president was.  I must have missed the solid facts because I doubt any government would lie. 

[Muzh]

Ah, I forgot, you're a baby boomer.  Baby boomers don't care what happens past their expiration date which seems to be quickly approaching.   

 
 

[Muzh]

It really doesn’t matter how YOU define ‘passive aggressive’ behavior…the reality is you get back what you put in. It is a rule of life.  If you are unable to make points, without attempting to insult then you should not whine when that is what you receive in return.
 

Oh, like you were with MissA?
 
Peaches.
 

Your posts remind me of a 60 year old PE teacher screaming at the students, frustrated that they are still teaching.  I imagine you behaving similarly around your office, maybe you do need to retire.
 

Now I'm old and a yeller. Heh
 
I should mention that the majority of my staff are really sad to see me go. They call me their sunshine. What do they call you at work?
 
 

Perhaps you had a different touch a while back, but you have definitely lost that touch now…just look at the silliness you call ‘discussion’ amid 1000's of posts.     People are entitled to have different viewpoints and your view is just one of many.  So like it or not, you are going to read other people’s opinions, although like that old PE teacher you obviously would prefer strict adherence to your jaded gibberish.

Fathertime!

Oh I see. YOU are the new look.  My, how self-important. 
 
Oops, sorry. For a second I thought you were serious. LMAO
 
However, the point of our discussion is the pending invasion of Ukraine by Russia and what does the rest of the world are planning to do. In addition, the Russian supporters agreeing that Ukraine is a mistake and should go back to serving their Russian masters.
 
You think we can discuss that?

[Muzh]

Well, damn FT, if I had known about the coffee, I would have given him the benefit of the doubt.  I need to go back over that article because all I saw was an illegal government talking about how bad the previous president was.  I must have missed the solid facts because I doubt any government would lie.

Oh stop it you two and get a room.
 
Geez