The Propaganda War

[Misha]

Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'??

For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...

[Muzh]

For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...

Which is exactly what I said. 

[Photo Guy]

This is a great video that refutes a lot of the Russian propaganda about Ukraine, including the bogus charge of 'fascism'.
(click on 'CC' for subtitles in English):

[Photo Guy]

An important point:
In order to discern the truth, you have to look at a lot of different news sources. Currently I am re-watching most of Vice news' video reports with Simon Ostrovsky. Through the entire series, he interviews separatists, and those who oppose them. The series begins with Crimea.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o5zqF6WJR8zuC7Uwyv76h7R

[GQBlues]

This is a great video that refutes a lot of the Russian propaganda about Ukraine, including the bogus charge of 'fascism'.
(click on 'CC' for subtitles in English):

 

This is what you have to implicate *Russians* aiding the rebels in Ukraine? Retired soldiers and obviously out-of-shape volunteers?

Now, I ask, how is this any different than US & European citizens flying to Iraq and Syria to join the militants that includes Al Qaeda and ISIS ( that the US armed) trying to topple those respective governments?

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-foreign-fighters-20140720-story.html#page=1

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/opinion/bergen-american-al-qaeda-suicide-bomber-syria/

The world *we created* is very sick but yet, we continue to spread democracy unto our world one nation at a time. Our way!

...Two U.S. citizens have been arrested on terrorism-related charges since April before boarding flights to Turkey, suspected of being on their way to help the militants. One is said to have paid his way with his federal tax refund. In May, a Florida man became a suicide bomber in northern Syria....

 

[Misha]

Which is exactly what I said. 

I didn't disagree with you either 

[Boethius]

This is what you have to implicate *Russians* aiding the rebels in Ukraine? Retired soldiers and obviously out-of-shape volunteers?

I posted this video yesterday or the day before.


A lot of those "retired soldiers" and "out of shape volunteers" are well trained, having fought the Chechen wars. 


Strelkov retired last year, allegedly, and spent a decade fighting for Russia before that. 


The point is that the separatist movement in Donbas is not a native movement.  Where do you think the funds and equipment come from?

[GQBlues]

I posted this video yesterday or the day before.


A lot of those "retired soldiers" and "out of shape volunteers" are well trained, having fought the Chechen wars. 


Strelkov retired last year, allegedly, and spent a decade fighting for Russia before that....

Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.

 

BILD and Der Spiegel reported the matter, as did a French photographer Jerome Sessini, which was verified by Paris Match. That's in addition to BBC's report I posted here about that German sniper working in Ukraine. That doesn't mean the German government can be implicated of sending troops in Ukraine. Or Ilyo Kolomoski's personal army consisting of Romanian, Polish, Albanian military advisers and troops would implicate those countries into sending soldiers to Ukraine.

Either hired guns or volunteers, doesn't necessarily mean the US nor Russia or anyone else for that matter is automatically culpable for what the video suggests, LOL.

...The point is that the separatist movement in Donbas is not a native movement.  Where do you think the funds and equipment come from?...

LOL...and this is different with the pro-Kiev forces exactly how?

[Misha]

When the Russian state (directly or through indirect channels) fund the mercenaries, then that certainly implicates Russia. In one intercepted call, the self-proclaimed prime minister complains that the cash he brought with him from Russia to fund their efforts had almost run out and that he needed more. The Russian handler told him not to worry, that they would get money to them through their usual channels...

[GQBlues]

When the Russian state (directly or through indirect channels) fund the mercenaries, then that certainly implicates Russia. In one intercepted call, the self-proclaimed prime minister complains that the cash he brought with him from Russia to fund their efforts had almost run out and that he needed more. The Russian handler told him not to worry, that they would get money to them through their usual channels...

Great! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you know how many millions the US have funded Kiev for this conflict? Guess...

Again, how is this any different from your allegations.

[GQBlues]

...I support what the Ukrainians are trying to do. I can’t do much about it, except teach… Because of the semi-official position I work in, I can’t do much more. If it gets too dangerous out here in western Ukraine, I have to go home. If it gets too politically strenuous for the US, the State Department might order us to go home. I’m not impressed with John Kerry whining that Putin doesn’t respond to our super-civilized new world society. He is “stunned” that Mr Putin acted in the same old way that Russians have always reacted. By force. By making your enemies fear you. By taking action, not talking. I’m amazed that anyone with a clue really thinks that this 21st century is going to be much different than the 19th century. History shows us otherwise. Every Damned Time....

Read more: http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/#ixzz39DCuPY00

[Misha]

Great! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you know how many millions the US have funded Kiev for this conflict? Guess...

Again, how is this any different from your allegations.

Quite different. The USA is going through open and transparent channels funding a legitimate state with a democratically elected president and a democratically elected legislative assembly.

[GQBlues]

It's different because it fits nicely into your narrative. But reality is, it isn't.

Besides, this *transparency* thing you speak of needs some serious cleaning before you can even recognize what exactly is inside the box. LOL.

You guys really need to get out more often and stop watching CSI.

[BillyB]

Besides, this *transparency* thing you speak of needs some serious cleaning before you can even recognize what exactly is inside the box. LOL.

You guys really need to get out more often and stop watching CSI.

Just because you recently discovered America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark. Transparency? This happened for decades. It's no secret. You need to get out more often and read the news and stop watching CSI.

Quite different. The USA is going through open and transparent channels funding a legitimate state with a democratically elected president and a democratically elected legislative assembly.

Misha is correct. There is also a difference between USA giving foreign aid to Israel to be free and live in a peaceful democracy and other nations giving Hamas financial aid to perform terrorist acts. GQ thinks both acts are equally evil.

[Doll]

  There is also a difference between USA giving foreign aid to Israel to be free and live in a peaceful democracy and other nations giving Hamas financial aid to perform terrorist acts.

And what IS this "deifference"?

[fathertime]

Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.


 
BILD and Der Spiegel reported the matter, as did a French photographer Jerome Sessini, which was verified by Paris Match. That's in addition to BBC's report I posted here about that German sniper working in Ukraine. That doesn't mean the German government can be implicated of sending troops in Ukraine. Or Ilyo Kolomoski's personal army consisting of Romanian, Polish, Albanian military advisers and troops would implicate those countries into sending soldiers to Ukraine.

Either hired guns or volunteers, doesn't necessarily mean the US nor Russia or anyone else for that matter is automatically culpable for what the video suggests, LOL.

LOL...and this is different with the pro-Kiev forces exactly how?

I took a look at the linked video you provided.  It states that German sources reported Blackwater is in E. Ukraine.  I don't know if it is true or not, but if it is true, AND we are paying for it, it would be pretty bad and not 'transparent'. 


 This link is several months old, when this may have happened, and purportedly shows the 'Blackwater forces' getting chased by Russian Separatist supporters.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html


Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

And what IS this "deifference"?

Look at the results.

[Drew]

It is the Russian ethnic and Russian speaking persons in Eastern Ukraine who are the Nationalists and Fascists.

And many of them are Russian terrorists themselves or are supporting the Russian terrorists who are operating in Ukraine.

Those Russians and Russian sympathisers living around the world who give aid, support and cover for the Russian terrorists operating in Ukraine are the true Nationalists and Fascists.

[Boethius]

Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.

I didn't say the video says the Russian government is sending forces to Ukraine.  Nor have I so stated.  The video does make a strong case, complete with statements from Russian nationals, that Russia is funding its proxy war.


As for the Der Spiegel/Blackwater, I tracked down the article when I first read that allegation.  The Der Spiegel article just refers to a report in Bild am Sonntag.  It is not an independent investigative piece.

[LiveFromUkraine]

And what IS this "deifference"?

There is no difference Doll.  Billy is a hypocrite when it comes to the US.  He thinks Russia's influence is bad but has no problem with the US influencing other countries through Bribes Foreign Aid, Sanctions or funding regime changes all over the world. 


Look how the US broke Switzerland's privacy laws.  Of course, it must have been for the good of the Swiss otherwise the US wouldn't have done so.

[GQBlues]

I didn't say the video says the Russian government is sending forces to Ukraine.  Nor have I so stated.  The video does make a strong case, complete with statements from Russian nationals, that Russia is funding its proxy war.

I didn't say you did Boethius. I didn't even commented on your post when you posted the same video in another thread. All I'm saying is, objectively speaking, if people volunteered to participate in any conflict it doesn't automatically implicate their government of sending troops anywhere unless they sanction it. I posted links of reports where thousands of European and American citizens joining the rebels in Syria, I'm sure you'd agree that it doesn't mean EU/US are sending fighters to fight the Syrian government. Right?

I posted a special op page above and that illustrate, at the least, that we do have commissioned special ops inside Ukraine at the behest of the US. I would *suspect*, considering the impotence of the Ukrainian army, that we have SO and advisers on the ground directing offensive strategies for the Ukranians. Because let's face it, the Ukrainian army at their current state will be overmatched by the Bloods or the Crips of LA, let alone an army like Russia.

It's a very dirty proxy war, Boethius. You know that. The greater powers call the shots and unfortunately the Ukrainians are the pawns in this war game.

As for the Der Spiegel/Blackwater, I tracked down the article when I first read that allegation.  The Der Spiegel article just refers to a report in Bild am Sonntag.  It is not an independent investigative piece.

That may well be Boe...but it doesn't diminished what they saw and what they reported. Matter of fact, I'd take that over youtube video as evidence any day. I know my government will definitely disagree with me, but just call me old school. Or is it Old skool?

Btw...if you like to  surf a bit, there's a whole of good info on WikiLeaks that would shine a little daylight into this entire mess...if you're curious.

[GQBlues]

Just because you recently discovered America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark. Transparency? This happened for decades. It's no secret. You need to get out more often and read the news and stop watching CSI....

 

This coming from a UkraineInvestigation subscriber!

[Photo Guy]

Misha and Muzh gave the most direct and honest replies:

Quote from: Photo Guy on July 30, 2014, 09:02:22 AM<blockquote>'Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'?? '
</blockquote>

For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...

[Photo Guy]

When the USA or the EU annex foreign territory in the name of some ideology, it should be questioned, and challenged. I think the second war in Iraq was a stupid move by the USA. However, it's a very different situation when you have a leader like Putin, blatantly lying about his use of troops and weapons, while also stating that he yearns for the USSR and, while sharing his serious fantasy about establishing a New Russia in nearby countries. There's nothing comical about it. There's blood on his hands. He doesn't care about the local people in Ukraine, especially those who do not speak Russian. He has this blatant prejudice. His narrow-mindedness includes a complete disregard for creating an atmosphere of TRUST that is essential for economic prosperity. Turning his country into a rogue nation has consequences. Where will Russia be five or ten years from now? ...Fear and intimidation are the tools of a bully.

[Manny]

America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark.

We are not clueless or in the dark. We know what spreading democracy American-style means.