Sick of it

[lordtiberius]

. . .  the Europeans decide to distance themselves from the war-like steps of Washington.

War like?  Where?

As for the Europeans,





we know what Putin thinks of you.

[The Natural]

A splendid analysis lordtiberius. You crack me up, haha.

[lordtiberius]

A splendid analysis lordtiberius. You crack me up, haha.

[roykirk]

There was an awesome political cartoon I saw the other day on vk.com that I'm still struggling to find again because it gives me fits of giggles whenever I think of it.  It depicted Russia, as a bear, cradling a bear cub emblazoned with the Ukraine flag, while swatting away a swooping bald eagle.  Clearly there was another panel missing where the adult Russian bear ate the bear cub and tore it limb from limb.  Until I can find it again, I'll attach my latest sculpture inspired by Putin.   

[lordtiberius]

Russia can't win the culture war.

[roykirk]

Found it!  There is propaganda and then there is hilarious.   

[Shadow]

Hilarious is a president telling his own people there wil be a ceasefire of one week so they can leave their country, then sends bombers the next day.

[lordtiberius]

I tell you what is funny.  The Botox king can't handle criticism and can't make people like him.  So he has to wag the dog while maintaining his dictatorship of likability. 



http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-navalny-/25430014.html

Navalny Facing Fresh Criminal Charges

Why doesn't our President think of that?

[Shadow]

I tell you what is funny.  The Botox king can't handle criticism and can't make people like him.  So he has to wag the dog while maintaining his dictatorship of likability. 



http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-navalny-/25430014.html

Navalny Facing Fresh Criminal Charges

Why doesn't our President think of that?

Because he is less fascist as some of his citizens?

[Gylden]

I came across an interesting article.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/putin-pussy-riot-moscow-city-duma-elections
 
 

[lordtiberius]

Because he is less fascist as some of his citizens?

And what does that mean really fascist?  It's just another slur that means someone who disagrees with the accuser.  You might as well call him Nazi, gay or stupid.  We had a rule in the team room.  If in argument, the first one to FU wins.  So if you are going to call someone that, you better have a good reason and plenty of evidence.  And if you call someone  (like JayH)a fascist or supporting a fascist who is also a member of this forum you better take extra care and due diligence - clear and convincing - 51%, not just the drive by slurs and innuendos that are so common place in the age of the internet,

[Shadow]

And what does that mean really fascist?  It's just another slur that means someone who disagrees with the accuser.  You might as well call him Nazi, gay or stupid.  We had a rule in the team room.  If in argument, the first one to FU wins.  So if you are going to call someone that, you better have a good reason and plenty of evidence.  And if you call someone  (like JayH)a fascist or supporting a fascist who is also a member of this forum you better take extra care and due diligence - clear and convincing - 51%, not just the drive by slurs and innuendos that are so common place in the age of the internet,

I have evidence that some people are following a fascist line of thinking.
Things like not allowing diversity of thought within a population, wnating to remove those who have other ideas from a country, and an extreme form of nationalism.
It seems that I can point out several people here who are subject to this.
Some of them even believe they are devout followers of a God who would forbid such actions.

[lordtiberius]

I came across an interesting article.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/putin-pussy-riot-moscow-city-duma-elections

It's a great article for anyone who bothers to read it.

[Shadow]

It's a great article for anyone who bothers to read it.

And from a completely unbiad author. 

[lordtiberius]

I have evidence that some people are following a fascist line of thinking.

So anyone who appears to have the slightest bit of patriotic feeling for their country or cause is a fascist?

Things like not allowing diversity of thought within a population, wnating to remove those who have other ideas from a country, and an extreme form of nationalism.

Read this article:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/putin-pussy-riot-moscow-city-duma-elections

It seems that I can point out several people here who are subject to this.

There are several people who I disagree with and loathe.  Many of them support fascists, communist and totalitarians, but I can't think of a single one who is a fascist.  Why do you use such language?

Some of them even believe they are devout followers of a God who would forbid such actions.

There's plenty of people who don't believe in organized religion, Christianity or God here who do not engage in drive-by character assassination.  There's plenty of people who don't believe in organized religion, Christianity or God here who do not forbid anything.  Only moderators forbid.  Quite frankly I don't know them well enough to characterize them except to say they have disappointed me on a few ocassions.  Oh well that's life, and yet I wouldn't call them fascist.

[lordtiberius]

And from a completely unbiad author. 

You have yet to substantiate or refute a single point using facts.  Everyone has a point of view.  Even those under the shade of death are not silent

[Shadow]

So anyone who appears to have the slightest bit of patriotic feeling for their country or cause is a fascist?

No, only those who lift it to proportions where they lose humanity.

Read this article:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/putin-pussy-riot-moscow-city-duma-elections

Did, it is on the level of the music the band made.

There are several people who I disagree with and loathe.  Many of them support fascists, communist and totalitarians, but I can't think of a single one who is a fascist.  Why do you use such language?

Why not tell the truth?

There's plenty of people who don't believe in organized religion, Christianity or God here who do not engage in drive-by character assassination.  There's plenty of people who don't believe in organized religion, Christianity or God here who do not forbid anything.  Only moderators forbid.  Quite frankly I don't know them well enough to characterize them except to say they have disappointed me on a few ocassions.  Oh well that's life, and yet I wouldn't call them fascist.

Moderators do not forbid. Like police does not forbid. They only step in when the self-moderating model does not work and the TOS is violated.
No wonder they disappointed you, as you seem unable to grasp their function.
And calling a moderator fascist would appropriate in the context of their olitical views only, not as comment on their actions.

In case you are unedicated in political movements, the so called ´middel´ of the political spectrum is named liberal. Liberals are protectors of freedom for all in every aspect of life.
A more extreme version of liberalism is nationalism. People are in favour of freedom, however within the compunds of their own country. An extreme version is named fascism. In this form any diversity of thought (or population) is seen as hindering the personal freedom, and has to be expelled.

Perhaps by this explanation you will understand my remarks better.
Those who feel that people who are born Ukrainians however vehemently oppose the current government and actions need to move fro their birth ground or be slaughtered are in effect following fascist thought, even if they may not realise it.
As for Stalinist thought, if you look at his policy of deporting those groups that could form opposition to his projects or reign, I guess my case is equally clear.

Having said this, the wish of the Donbass region to form Novorossiya and remain within ´their´ people is also bordering on fascist, should they also go as far as to wish removing those who support an undivided Ukraine.

[Turboguy]

You have yet to substantiate or refute a single point using facts. 

I haven't followed this thread that close and I did enjoy the article about pussy riots and elections.   However I do have to ask, What the heck are "Facts"?   How can anyone substantiate or refute something with facts?   Is something you read on the internet or in a newspaper a fact.



Long ago it was a fact that the sun and stars revolved around the earth.
a few hundred years ago it was a fact that the best way to cure a sick person was to drain some of his blood.
About the same time most would have told you it was a fact that God created the heavens and earth.
A week ago it was a fact the big bang theory was pretty much a fact of how the universe was created and yesterday there was an article that I didn't read stating the big bang theory was wrong.
A half century ago the golf of Tonkin attack was a fact
A dozen years ago it was a fact Iraq had WMD's
Many of use get our "facts?" from tv and Newspapers yet the facts in American newspapers and the facts in European newspapers and the facts in Arab newspapers bear little resemblance.
I haven't followed the thread that close but from what I have read in the last page Shadow was calling Putin a Fascist.  You seemed to disagree.  If I have read this wrong or have not read enough to understand what was being discussed I apologize but it would seem to me that the article you referenced would substantiate Shadows statement. 
The main point that I wanted to make is just that I am not sure anyone can really make their point in a discussion with "Facts"

[lordtiberius]

The main point that I wanted to make is just that I am not sure anyone can really make their point in a discussion with "Facts"

You have the facts wrong.  Read the thread and then comment.  Thanks

[Turboguy]

You have the facts wrong.  Read the thread and then comment.  Thanks

Shoot, then I might sound like I knew what I was talking about and that would be a first.

[lordtiberius]

Shadow is a pro-Russia guy.  He has no problem with what Putin is doing.  I am for Ukraine. I am for freedom in Ukraine and in Russia.  I support the people of Euromaidan and Pussy Riot.  If Navalny and Poroshenko turn tyrant I will oppose them too.  I support my family still living in Ukraine.

[Shadow]

Shadow is a pro-Russia guy.  He has no problem with what Putin is doing.  I am for Ukraine. I am for freedom in Ukraine and in Russia.  I support the people of Euromaidan and Pussy Riot.  If Navalny and Poroshenko turn tyrant I will oppose them too.  I support my family still living in Ukraine.

And I support my family still living in Russia.
Poroshenko has already turned tyrant, just not yet against the people you support. But that will not take long.
I am for true freedom in Ukraine, and in Russia. Not dictatorship by the EU and US.
People should choose their own path, and not be bullied by other countries. And that includes Russia as far as Ukraine is concerned.
Unfortunately some people are so gullible that they fall for propaganda and even support people being driven from their homes for their views. Very free and democratic.

[Maxx2]

And I support my family still living in Russia.
Poroshenko has already turned tyrant, just not yet against the people you support. But that will not take long.
I am for true freedom in Ukraine, and in Russia. Not dictatorship by the EU and US.
People should choose their own path, and not be bullied by other countries. And that includes Russia as far as Ukraine is concerned.
Unfortunately some people are so gullible that they fall for propaganda and even support people being driven from their homes for their views. Very free and democratic.

I agree totally. I am also for the freedom of Americans and others from their own governments intrusion into their lives.

[Turboguy]

Ok, the choice was watch a John Wayne movie or read the thread as LT suggested.  I had read parts of the thread from time to time but don't particularly care to get involved in political threads.
First off I agree with Maxx's last post.  Our own liberty is being taken away so fast that I worry far more about that than I do Ukraine or Iraq.
I have to agree with Doll's post # 1 that the events of the past few months certainly have not made me dislike Russians or to have any negative feeling towards them.  I don't think the actions of Putin have made me feel any different about Russia or Russians. 
So we have Shadow in one camp and LT in the other.  I will state up front that I am in the middle.
For those who feel the Iraq war was about oil, I won't totally disagree but I don't agree either.  If that was the case, why Vietnam.  They have no oil.  Why did we invade Grenada, they have no oil. 
When the Vietnam was was going on it was all supposed to be about the Domino Theory.  That was a bunch of bunk.  Iraq was about WMD's and the repression of the civilian population perhaps with some motivations about oil.   Actually my personal feelings are that both wars were because it served the best interests of the USA.  That a stable, prosperous democratic government would set an example that might bring stability to an unstable region.  As far as Vietnam goes I have to agree with Gator, the right side won.  As far as Iraq, I think it needs to be split into two countries and as ISIS finds the going tougher that may be the end result and it might be the best result.  It is hard to win a war without the support of the people and we failed to win the support in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan.
So if I am correct that we did what we did because it was in America's best interests not for oil or humanitarian reasons how does that relate to Ukraine.
There are a lot of Europeans who blame the USA not Russia for the crisis in Ukraine.  They feel the original descent that overthrew the government was a CIA operation.  At the time Ukraine was moving away from the EU and USA and towards Russia.  I would not rule out that possibility.  If that is the case it backfired as so many things we do seem to.
As far as Russia's actions they were operating in the best interests of Russia just as we did in Iraq and Vietnam.  If it is ok for us, why is it not ok for them?   The population wanted to be part of Russia, it improved Russia's military capabilities.  It gave Putin a big boost in the polls at home and has far more support among the Russian people than our wars have had.
The fear is that Putin will continue his conquests.  If he does then I am off the fence and on LT's side but for right now I am neutral.  There is a saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Putin reminds me of a cross between Clint Eastwood's movie persona and Richard Nixon.  I consider him to be macho, strong willed, self serving and paranoid.  Term limits are a good thing.  He has been in power too long but he has changed Russia a lot. 

[lordtiberius]

TG, is your family Russian or Ukrainian?