Sick of it

[roykirk]

Yanukovych was moving away from the EU and USA in favor of Moscow.  The majority of the Ukraine people were infuriated.  Hence Maidan. 

[Turboguy]

TG, is your family Russian or Ukrainian?

My wife is from Russia but that has nothing to do with my view on things. 
Some of my feelings come from a few visits to Wiz's forum (Wiz is a former member here who started his own forum which is not very busy).   Wiz by the way is Greek.  When I first read his thoughts on the Ukraine situation I was very upset and looked on it as very biased and anti-American.  I have noticed that several Eurpeans such as Manny and Shadow seem to feel a lot of the same that the USA created the problem.  I don't think we are quite the evil empire that Wiz seems to but it does make me think there might be some element of fact in what they say.
I don't dislike Russia or Russians.  I can't even say I like or dislike Putin.  I like Ukraine and Ukrainians and have spent a lot of time there.  I would have preferred Ukraine to remain intact and for them to elect honest and dedicated leaders that would improve their government and bring a better lifestyle to the people there.  If they want to build closer ties to Russia that is their choice but I think it would be a bad choice for the citizens there.
The fear is that Putin will be the next Hitler.  Should I see that then I will be anti-Putin.  I don't approve of his actions but I see it as something the USA would have done in the same situation. 

[Turboguy]

Yanukovych was moving away from the EU and USA in favor of Moscow.  The majority of the Ukraine people were infuriated.  Hence Maidan.

Some people feel there is more to the story.  What you have said is what the American Press has told the American Citizens.

[roykirk]

Some people feel there is more to the story.  What you have said is what the American Press has told the American Citizens.

Perhaps, but I don't watch or read American news, only international.  It's certainly not those pesky Nazis, as the Kremlin has been peddling about.   

[Faux Pas]

My wife is from Russia but that has nothing to do with my view on things. 
Some of my feelings come from a few visits to Wiz's forum (Wiz is a former member here who started his own forum which is not very busy).   Wiz by the way is Greek.  When I first read his thoughts on the Ukraine situation I was very upset and looked on it as very biased and anti-American.  I have noticed that several Eurpeans such as Manny and Shadow seem to feel a lot of the same that the USA created the problem.  I don't think we are quite the evil empire that Wiz seems to but it does make me think there might be some element of fact in what they say.
I don't dislike Russia or Russians.  I can't even say I like or dislike Putin.  I like Ukraine and Ukrainians and have spent a lot of time there.  I would have preferred Ukraine to remain intact and for them to elect honest and dedicated leaders that would improve their government and bring a better lifestyle to the people there.  If they want to build closer ties to Russia that is their choice but I think it would be a bad choice for the citizens there.
The fear is that Putin will be the next Hitler.  Should I see that then I will be anti-Putin.  I don't approve of his actions but I see it as something the USA would have done in the same situation.

TG,
Iraq was never about the oil. That was a battle cry from the partisan left. It was about WMDs,  Saddam training terrorist and failure to let the UN nuclear inspectors do their job in Iraq as agreed from the Desert storm accord as set by the UN. . There was probably also some "unfinished business" from the position of Dubya and Saddam gave him all he needed. Iraqi oil accounted for 3% (IIRC) of the world supply. Even after the invasion the oil proceeds went directly to Iraqi coffers. The U.S. spent 25 Billion dollars rebuilding Iraq which is much more than the oil. Partisan politics did and still does to this day clouds the "reason" for the invasion of Iraq. I suppose the truth never is relevant in such discussions.

On the other, Putin did and continues to invade Ukraine most because, he can and get away with it. The West has no backbone to stop him and he knows it. The Putin apologists fueled by Soviet era propaganda see this action as perfectly acceptable and justified. Little do they see themselves as frogs in the pot with the heat gradually increasing. Eventually they will be cooked and it will be too late. All my humble opinion

[fathertime]

TG,
Iraq was never about the oil. That was a battle cry from the partisan left. It was about WMDs,  Saddam training terrorist and failure to let the UN nuclear inspectors do their job in Iraq as agreed from the Desert storm accord as set by the UN. . There was probably also some "unfinished business" from the position of Dubya and Saddam gave him all he needed. Iraqi oil accounted for 3% (IIRC) of the world supply. Even after the invasion the oil proceeds went directly to Iraqi coffers. The U.S. spent 25 Billion dollars rebuilding Iraq which is much more than the oil. Partisan politics did and still does to this day clouds the "reason" for the invasion of Iraq. I suppose the truth never is relevant in such discussions.

On the other, Putin did and continues to invade Ukraine most because, he can and get away with it. The West has no backbone to stop him and he knows it. The Putin apologists fueled by Soviet era propaganda see this action as perfectly acceptable and justified. Little do they see themselves as frogs in the pot with the heat gradually increasing. Eventually they will be cooked and it will be too late. All my humble opinion

We would have been lucky had it ONLY been 25 billion....I'm seeing 90 billion in the first link. 


In addition, the total cost of Iraq thus far has been more than 2 Trillion...with a potential cost of 6 trillion over the next 4 decades. 


Here are the links:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/06/iraq-war-report_n_2816743.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/14/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSBRE92D0PG20130314


Fathertime! 

[Maxx2]

We would have been lucky had it ONLY been 25 billion....I'm seeing 90 billion in the first link. 


In addition, the total cost of Iraq thus far has been more than 2 Trillion...with a potential cost of 6 trillion over the next 4 decades. 

Fathertime!

A trillion here and  trillion there and soon you are talking about real money. I wonder why the conservatives are so nonconservative when it comes to spending money on the war? Oh because their defense stocks pay them so well and isn't that the real reason for the war? Or was it WMD that were never found?

[lordtiberius]

A trillion here and  trillion there and soon you are talking about real money. I wonder why the conservatives are so nonconservative when it comes to spending money on the war? Oh because their defense stocks pay them so well and isn't that the real reason for the war? Or was it WMD that were never found?

First off, the defense industry is down.  Second of all, because of the regulation (John McCain) the defense industry is consolidated into six major companies.  So the innovation of Kelly Johnson of Lockheed and Howard Hughes is a lot harder to come by when you have Ivy league MBAs at the helm.  Third, having spent a majority of my career in the defense industry and in and around war - war is horrible.  Very few people make any real money at it.  It is a lot of killing and sadness and destruction and waste.  A lot of money is spent on idiots like Paul Bremer, Generals Casey and Abaziad and only when the money dries up that guys like Petreues come along and win the war only to hand the country back to al Qaida because the American people elected a dove President.

And don't say that conservatives, don't give a damn about waste.  It may surprise but there's a lot you don't know.


http://www.news10.net/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2014/05/02/thefts-reported-at-army-depot-sites/8583363/

http://www.news10.net/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2014/05/02/sierra-army-depot-theft-fbi/8618673/

http://theundiscoveredcountry.blogspot.com/2014/02/anatomy-of-traitor-case-of-devon-biggs.html

[lordtiberius]

My wife is from Russia but that has nothing to do with my view on things. 

You know it does for a lot of people including myself.

Some of my feelings come from a few visits to Wiz's forum (Wiz is a former member here who started his own forum which is not very busy).   Wiz by the way is Greek.  When I first read his thoughts on the Ukraine situation I was very upset and looked on it as very biased and anti-American.  I have noticed that several Eurpeans such as Manny and Shadow seem to feel a lot of the same that the USA created the problem.  I don't think we are quite the evil empire that Wiz seems to but it does make me think there might be some element of fact in what they say.

I don't know why the US got blamed for engineering Euromaidan.  I guess you could say that the CIA has been active in the Rose and the Color Revolution.  But have you ever worked with those guys?  They kinda suck.  In Iraq, we had to get our intelligence because they weren't good at their jobs.

Also this idea that Nuland is some Mephisto is laughable.  Remember this is the clown who played Hatch man for Hillary-Huma during Benghazi.  Maxx2 is right about Extortion 17 being an inside job and "authorized" payback for us killing their leader (UBL).  Nuland and Pyatt (both competent boobs), they were handing out rolls when the protests started and Dedyushaka took one and like "WTF is this?"  How about giving us something substantial?

If we really wanted a war, we would have invoked the Budapest Memorandum which authorized our use of force in the region to secure Ukrainian's territorial integrity.  But so-called experts like former Ambassador to Ukraine under Slick Willie, Steven Pifer didn't call the Budapest Memorandum real law.  What the hell was it then Steve?  Ukraine got rid of the third largest unclear arsenal and Cameron and Barack are playing hide and go hide some more.  Honestly some of these Democrats have no shame.

This is more a Polish thing.  This was Poland, the Baltics and Scandanavia coming together.  Westerwelle of Germany was Foreign Minister but his party did not win enough votes so Merkel is in coalition with her enemies - the SPD - the pro-Russia party in Germany.  Cameron is so unbelievably weak, I would love to see a Farange Premiership though UKIP is bought and paid for by the Sovietsky Soyuz.  Hollande?  His economy is in the pooper because of his policies.  France is in a bad way.

I don't dislike Russia or Russians.  I can't even say I like or dislike Putin.  I like Ukraine and Ukrainians and have spent a lot of time there.  I would have preferred Ukraine to remain intact and for them to elect honest and dedicated leaders that would improve their government and bring a better lifestyle to the people there.  If they want to build closer ties to Russia that is their choice but I think it would be a bad choice for the citizens there.
The fear is that Putin will be the next Hitler.  Should I see that then I will be anti-Putin.  I don't approve of his actions but I see it as something the USA would have done in the same situation.

People say a lot of things about George W. Bush.  But he is not weak.  His father was more slimy and sneaky.  W will punch you in the nose.  There were A LOT of things I didn't agree with.  But the man had character and people like him in that part of the world.  They don't really know Obama and those that do, don't like him.



Wonder why?

The fact is that before Crimea, before Euromaidan, Ukraine was a pro-Russian country.  They shared a language, family ties, origins, business opportunities, partners in Empire that was the Evil Empire.  That's all changed.



People on this forum call me a warmonger.  I never insulted the suffering of a man and his woman while combat occurred on this forum and unlike everyone else, I was not silent about it either.  I would like nothing more if Putin would repent of his sins and spend with Beruslconi the rest of his days trolling for underage chicks and orphanages and nurseries.  He is a go-zillionaire. 

But he is scared.  A friend of mine, Rob Cain, does a podcast called "Ancient Rome Refocused."  His episode "I'm the Emperor, and You're Not" details the psychology of tyranny in Rome's case legalized tyranny.

http://podbay.fm/show/350056531/e/1293019323

Be happy you live in Maxx2's faux democracy

[roykirk]

But I think it's a vast oversimplification to say, "before Crimea, before Euromaidan, Ukraine was a pro-Russian country." 

When I first moved to this area (Portland, Oregon) 4 years ago, we rented a house for the first year in this nice neighborhood.  We found out quickly that we had two different Ukrainian families living nearby.  We became friends with them and would often be invited over to their house for parties and other gatherings.  Of course at these parties were a lot more of their Ukrainian friends and family.  I remember being "educated" one night by several pleasant and yet very inebriated Ukrainians that, "in western Ukraine, we're proud to know and speak the Ukrainian language, we like the west, and we don't like Russia very much.  In the east, they love Russia and none of them knows our Ukrainian language." 

Even before this my wife had a good friend from Crimea who would come over occasionally so our kids could have play dates.  We got talking politics one night and I mentioned how inspired I was by the "Orange Revolution" events.  She rolled her eyes and laughed at me.  She went on to tell me how disgusted she was by the Orange Revolution and how "everyone" in Crimea supported Moscow and felt they were more Russian than Ukrainian. 

Clearly both comments were vast oversimplifications themselves, but they were made long before our recent events.  I don't claim to know a lot about Ukrainian history, but it would seem evident that there existed an internal division in the country that goes far back. 

[fathertime]

More on meddling...

After *Operation Viking Hammer* in Iraq...the same special force was sent to Liberia to covertly quell the ongoing massacre being committed under the leadership of Chuck Taylor that same year. No one knew about this deployment. It is just now being made available to the American public.

As one of the soldier remarked about what they encountered in Liberia when they arrived, the violent streets of Iraq is Disneyland compared to what was going on in the streets of Liberia at the time.

It's really time to abandon the United Nations. Let this world sort itself out. China, one of the SC nation, had always abstained and understandably considering they know this is just mere political hypocrisy. China was ignored and sacrificed to the Japanese aggression by France and the stupid League of Nations despite it's urgent plea for assistance leading up to the second WW. It was deemed at the time that Japan's invasion of China is a small price to pay and would mean it'll occupy Japan for a while.

Estimated deaths as a result of Japan's invasion of China: 14-20 million Chinese deaths (still debatable) and the world is largely ignorant of this number. Read: Rana Mitter's 'The Struggle for Survival'.   

Just as the so-called *liberation* of the Philippines. The US wanted to go to Formosa in its war against Japan. They didn't gave a hoot about the Philippines. Roosevelt abandoned 20,000+ US troops in Corregidor (still considered as the US Army biggest military defeat), along with 75,000 Filipino guerilla fighters (Bataan Death March) because he thought best to aid the Europeans first when we entered WWII since that was what he always wanted to do even before Pearl Harbor and despite Japan being the country that attacked us. It took 4 long years before the landing in Leyte. Even then, it was MacArthur's bidding to *help* and go through the Philippines - not Roosevelt.

BBB - The Battling Bastards of Bataan.

The US liberated France from Nazi Germany only to eventually have these guys sell us out time and again.

Thanks for that little tidbit....
I was just reading this morning some more odd US interventionism at play.  Apparently we have been 'quietly sending 100's of millions of dollars to Egypt.  Why are my tax dollars going to such a place?  We have a broken border where all of Latin America are dumping their children for us to take care of.  Why is it more of a priority to send large amounts of money to Egypt instead of dealing with OUR OWN issues?  Roughly 772 million sent or to be sent just this year...and Egypt is still grumbling that we need to send the rest of 'their' aid, totally 1.5 billion.  What exactly are we trying to do here and why is it so important that all of this 'borrowed' money has to be spent? I don't get it, unless there are some large hidden benefits that we never hear about.  I don't think we should be pushing countries towards leaderships that their peoples don't support.


http://news.yahoo.com/us-seeks-thaw-egypt-relations-despite-concerns-082100291--politics.html
Fathertime! 

[Shadow]

Thanks for that little tidbit....
I was just reading this morning some more odd US interventionism at play.  Apparently we have been 'quietly sending 100's of millions of dollars to Egypt.  Why are my tax dollars going to such a place?  We have a broken border where all of Latin America are dumping their children for us to take care of.  Why is it more of a priority to send large amounts of money to Egypt instead of dealing with OUR OWN issues?  Roughly 772 million sent or to be sent just this year...and Egypt is still grumbling that we need to send the rest of 'their' aid, totally 1.5 billion.  What exactly are we trying to do here and why is it so important that all of this 'borrowed' money has to be spent? I don't get it, unless there are some large hidden benefits that we never hear about.  I don't think we should be pushing countries towards leaderships that their peoples don't support.


http://news.yahoo.com/us-seeks-thaw-egypt-relations-despite-concerns-082100291--politics.html
Fathertime!

Just like some people who arrive here expect to be able to use their wallet to get liked.

[lordtiberius]

Egypt is not really the problem.  Its Qatar.  If you read the Wikileaks cables, the King of Saudi Arabia is shouting protests at Obama because of his handling of the Iran containment: Obama's support for the mullahs killed the pro-democracy Green revolutionaries, his blocking of Israeli military action against Iran, Obama's support for an Iranian nuclear program while he disarms ours -we had 5K now we have 1500 - Obama wants us at 300.  Iran is a puppet of Russia.  Valerie Jarrett the same slumlord who along with Joe Biden talked Obama six times out of killing UBL.

Egypt was a problem when MB or Huma's relatives controlled Egypt.  But the Egyptians are wonderful people. Have you ever been?

[Shadow]

Egypt is not really the problem.  Its Qatar.  If you read the Wikileaks cables, the King of Saudi Arabia is shouting protests at Obama because of his handling of the Iran containment: Obama's support for the mullahs killed the pro-democracy Green revolutionaries, his blocking of Israeli military action against Iran, Obama's support for an Iranian nuclear program while he disarms ours -we had 5K now we have 1500 - Obama wants us at 300.  Iran is a puppet of Russia.  Valerie Jarrett the same slumlord who along with Joe Biden talked Obama six times out of killing UBL.

Egypt was a problem when MB or Huma's relatives controlled Egypt.  But the Egyptians are wonderful people. Have you ever been?

Never been there but met some wonderful people. Most fled because of either religion or corruption.
Christians and honest people are not very welcome there, unless they wish to empty their wallets.

[lordtiberius]

I am convinced the Gulfies don't want Egypt to have a normal economy or a normal country.  The idea threatens their power.  Some of Maxx's ideas have a currency.

[BillyB]

I was just reading this morning some more odd US interventionism at play.  Apparently we have been 'quietly sending 100's of millions of dollars to Egypt.  Why are my tax dollars going to such a place? 

This financial aid is not secret. It has been going on for decades. In the Middle East, Egypt and Israel receives more financial aid than other nations. Israel gets it to help with their survival. Egypt gets it because they have the most influence on other nations that may want to attack Israel.

Why is it more of a priority to send large amounts of money to Egypt instead of dealing with OUR OWN issues? 

America does spend more money on our own issues than on foreign issues and the money spent on foreign issues is to help with issues at home. Putting all eggs in one basket is not wise and money spent for investment elsewhere and preventing and putting out fires is beneficial. When sending aid to foreign countries, we gain a trading partner and decrease the chance of war. Almost any war in the Middle East is a drain on our economy. It's best we end it quick or invest money in preventing war. The war in Syria is a rare exception and has minimal effect on our economy. They don't have as much oil as Libya.


It doesn't matter what president people elect, if he doesn't see value in helping out friends, he will soon be educated on why it's important. It's better to invest in preventive measures than spend money putting out fires.

[lordtiberius]

This is such a bunko.  The government spends $ 3.45 trillion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#mediaviewer/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png

Of which $ 14 billion is foreign military assistance and $ 23 billion is foreign aid
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/blog/2013/05/06/how-much-foreign-aid-does-us-give-away/
about 1%

[AkMike]

A trillion here and  trillion there and soon you are talking about real money.I wonder why the conservatives are so nonconservative when it comes to spending money on the war? Oh because their defense stocks pay them so well and isn't that the real reason for the war? Or was it WMD that were never found?

As far as WMD's - this is why the US went to Iraq.  Just in case you forgot Maxx2.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/dems-wmd-before-iraq_zpsac44d96a.mp4.html

[lordtiberius]

I know Saddam has a lot of fans in the antiwar movement.  This is for them:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2665360/Judge-sentenced-Saddam-Hussein-death-captured-executed-ISIS.html

Judge who sentenced Saddam Hussein to death 'is captured and executed by ISIS'



Maybe its good that Ukraine is doing this on their own.  We are such awesome allies.

http://time.com/2909289/poland-foreign-minister-worthless/

Report: Poland’s Foreign Minister Blasts ‘Worthless’ U.S. Relationship


Radoslaw Sikorski with author wife Anne Applebaum

The Truth Hurts

[Maxx2]

As far as WMD's - this is why the US went to Iraq.  Just in case you forgot Maxx2.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/dems-wmd-before-iraq_zpsac44d96a.mp4.html

Checked video, Here is the list in order of people who tried to make the point of WMDs (that weren't there).



Madeleine Albright


Bill Clinton


Howard Dean


Sandy Berger


Nancy Pelosi


Jay Rockefeller


Joe Biden


Harry Reid


Hillary Clinton


John Edwards


Evan Bayh


George Bush


I don't trust anyone one of them. If you do then knock yourself out.

[lordtiberius]

Why are you pro-Putin?  Why are you pro-Saddam?

[Maxx2]

I know Saddam has a lot of fans in the antiwar movement.  This is for them:

I am no fan of Hussein. He terrorized his own people but he kept a lid on things. All these Al Qaeda folks weren't running around in his country like they are now. Same goes with Gadaffi. The people in his country prospered with his pouring the oil money back into the people. Ask BillyB. His lady's mother was doing pretty good there until NATO decided to back Al Qaeda. Now with these strongmen gone we got chaos and anarchy. It's what the CIA calls "blowback." George Bush senior an old ex-CIA man himself had enough sense to leave them in place. Sunni Saddam Hussein was a buffer to Shiite Ayatollah Iran. The Obama-Clinton administrations and Junior Bush's were mislead by the demented neo-cons and their fellows at the Council of Foreign Relations. If you want to see a membership list of these creatures look up to the post to mine. 

[Maxx2]

Why are you pro-Putin?

I am not. But I understand why he did what he did. I also recognize that we (America) instigated the revolution. If I had my way we would have stayed out of it. Crimea would still be in Ukraine. Travel over there in both regions would be safe for Americans and us guys here at RWD wouldn't be at each other's throats. But it's not that way. For me I am not going to choose sides. For me Putin is the devil we know who is probably better than the devil we don't know. Ditto for Hussein and Gaffafi although with them me got the next devil armed with surface to air missiles.

[fathertime]

This financial aid is not secret. It has been going on for decades. In the Middle East, Egypt and Israel receives more financial aid than other nations. Israel gets it to help with their survival. Egypt gets it because they have the most influence on other nations that may want to attack Israel.

Hey Billyb,


I think the reason why the article mentioned that it was 'quietly' still sending aid was because recently we were threatening to without Egypt's aid to due to some of the actions of their leadership that we didn't approve of. 

America does spend more money on our own issues than on foreign issues and the money spent on foreign issues is to help with issues at home. Putting all eggs in one basket is not wise and money spent for investment elsewhere and preventing and putting out fires is beneficial. When sending aid to foreign countries, we gain a trading partner and decrease the chance of war. Almost any war in the Middle East is a drain on our economy. It's best we end it quick or invest money in preventing war. The war in Syria is a rare exception and has minimal effect on our economy. They don't have as much oil as Libya.
 

I'm so sure about decreasing the chance of war.  I think it could be argued that some of the military financial aid actually arms many more people and makes war worse.....either way 10's of billions dollars being given away to other nations yearly is still questionable when a country like ours is running rather large deficits.  Does it produce benefits to us?  Perhaps to some of the large corporations and those that own the stock....yes.


Fathertime! 


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

I think the reason why the article mentioned that it was 'quietly' still sending aid was because recently we were threatening to without Egypt's aid to due to some of the actions of their leadership that we didn't approve of. 

I am sorry none of this is accurate.  We give them money because we have a lot of it.  $ 3.4T exceeds the Russian economy of $ 2T.  The people have United States through their elected representatives have been giving Egypt for the past 30 years as apart of the 1979 Mideast Peace Deal - Jimmy Carter's one accomplishment.  We figured it was better that we pay them less than 1% of our federal budget than repeat the Oil Crisis of the 70's and the possibility of nuclear war which happened in 1973 when we went to DEFCON 3.  Egypt gets $ 1.4 B or slightly more than Facebook should pay but doesn't and instead gets back in corporate welfare.

I'm so sure about decreasing the chance of war.  I think it could be argued that some of the military financial aid actually arms many more people and makes war worse

I haven't heard that argument. I would be interested in hearing it.

.....either way 10's of billions dollars being given away to other nations yearly is still questionable when a country like ours is running rather large deficits.  Does it produce benefits to us?  Perhaps to some of the large corporations and those that own the stock....yes.

We are running large deficits but we cannot convince the American people to elect representatives who wish to cut government.  Until that happens, you will have more of the same.