Sick of it

[deccie]

I guess you must be a FOX news fan huh?

It looks like he has been in the most clueless centre of all--in Russia itself where the media is a propaganda tool and has very little to do with  factual info & news. Perhaps that explains the ignorance?Then he has the temerity to come and attempt to claim some type of superior knowledge !!  Like other Putin apologists who try to paint the very specific criticisms  being made of Putins Russia as being anti Russian !!

[Anotherkiwi]

I guess you must be a FOX news fan huh?

Is Fox news that bad?  Personally I wouldn't know, because I've never seen it.

Deccie, the best news coverage I have seen of and about the situation in Ukraine is from al-Jazeera and the BBC.  I can't imagine that anyone could describe Al-Jazeera as pro-Western, yet its reports and conclusions are far closer to what the traditional Western media (in general) have been reporting than to anything coming out of Russia.  It has actual Russians and Ukrainians reporting, not just people who happen to speak Russian and/or Ukrainian.

While I wouldn't be so stupid as to believe everything I've read or seen in the media here, I'm also not so stupid as to believe what Russian television seems to have been force-feeding its own audience.  Various Russians have pointed out on this forum that media in Russia is not restricted to television, press and radio - most people have access to the internet and can easily find other points of view.  However, how many actually bother?  I'm sure that (just like here, and Australia, and the USA, and the UK, and everywhere else) most people will see something on TV, take it pretty much at face value (unless they have first-hand knowledge of whatever the item covers), and carry on with their lives.  There has been plenty posted in these threads over the last few months that I was unaware of, and I'm glad that this resource is available - even if some of what is posted is absolute drivel.

[Dewed]

I'll write.. but I'm not likely to read any response.. so feel free to ignore..

what is the point of this continual bickering.. clearly no one's mind will change if they are encased in cement. This serves no purpose at all. Suggest you all direct all this energy into something that actually matters, like sharing your views with your representative rather than bickering and exchanging insults here which will have absolutely no impact on anything other than act as an irritant to those that would otherwise actually enjoy visiting this website.

I will mention one last time.. USE THE IGNORE FUNCTION  you will find it in your profile

[lordtiberius]

Tell us again how Mistral is not an aircraft carrier . . .

[deccie]

Is Fox news that bad?  Personally I wouldn't know, because I've never seen it.

Deccie, the best news coverage I have seen of and about the situation in Ukraine is from al-Jazeera and the BBC.  I can't imagine that anyone could describe Al-Jazeera as pro-Western, yet its reports and conclusions are far closer to what the traditional Western media (in general) have been reporting than to anything coming out of Russia.  It has actual Russians and Ukrainians reporting, not just people who happen to speak Russian and/or Ukrainian.

While I wouldn't be so stupid as to believe everything I've read or seen in the media here, I'm also not so stupid as to believe what Russian television seems to have been force-feeding its own audience.  Various Russians have pointed out on this forum that media in Russia is not restricted to television, press and radio - most people have access to the internet and can easily find other points of view.  However, how many actually bother?  I'm sure that (just like here, and Australia, and the USA, and the UK, and everywhere else) most people will see something on TV, take it pretty much at face value (unless they have first-hand knowledge of whatever the item covers), and carry on with their lives.  There has been plenty posted in these threads over the last few months that I was unaware of, and I'm glad that this resource is available - even if some of what is posted is absolute drivel.

I lived in the Middle East for almost 4 years and spent some time in Qatar as well. Indeed I came very close to extending my time and accepting a new role there and I have my doubts about any neutrality of Al Jazeera in reporting news. Qatar is quite a highly regulated society.

BBC has definitely gone downhill in recent decades. I would maintain that PBS is a higher standard than either of those. However, I accept that both are indeed better than most commercial American news. I found the North American standards of TV so appalingly bad I just gave up watching it  completely within 6 months of arriving in Canada. The TV in my apartment was just left off and I watched everything via web.

The big thing I have found here is that  Russians that I deal with on a regular/daily basis are in no way hostile to the people of Ukraine. They don't wish them ill at all. As I mentioned I have seen people at the local post office desparate to get cash to friends and family to help them and they are not so stupid as to think the money has any realistic chance to get there but feel they must try anyway. Nor do I find most here believe the government line completely either. BUT there is a definite Anti-American feeling in the air.

My wife and i went for a stroll with the dog tonight and when one guy heard us speaking English he wanted to know if I was American and the feeling of both of us was he was looking for an argument. He was drunk  but was in no way hostile or abusive and just went on his way when he found out I was an Aussie.

[Faux Pas]

Is Fox news that bad? Personally I wouldn't know, because I've never seen it.

Deccie, the best news coverage I have seen of and about the situation in Ukraine is from al-Jazeera and the BBC.  I can't imagine that anyone could describe Al-Jazeera as pro-Western, yet its reports and conclusions are far closer to what the traditional Western media (in general) have been reporting than to anything coming out of Russia.  It has actual Russians and Ukrainians reporting, not just people who happen to speak Russian and/or Ukrainian.

While I wouldn't be so stupid as to believe everything I've read or seen in the media here, I'm also not so stupid as to believe what Russian television seems to have been force-feeding its own audience.  Various Russians have pointed out on this forum that media in Russia is not restricted to television, press and radio - most people have access to the internet and can easily find other points of view.  However, how many actually bother?  I'm sure that (just like here, and Australia, and the USA, and the UK, and everywhere else) most people will see something on TV, take it pretty much at face value (unless they have first-hand knowledge of whatever the item covers), and carry on with their lives.  There has been plenty posted in these threads over the last few months that I was unaware of, and I'm glad that this resource is available - even if some of what is posted is absolute drivel.

No, Fox News isn't "that" bad. Actually, it's not any better or worse than any other news outlet in America or abroad. Anyone professing to get any semblance of unvarnished truth from their news outlets are only fooling themselves. Ethical journalism on an international scale doesn't exist and hasn't since the advent of the 24 hour news cycle and the popularization of the internet. Both of which, regardless of what they were intended for, have been used exclusively for disinformation. It should be noted however that Russia's penchant for media disinformation would equate to Baghdad Bob in the first Gulf War. Russian propaganda has no shame in distorting facts to suit their own needs where most Western outlets have little but, some.

Actually, I depend on BBC as one of my sources for a view of events outside of US media. IMHO, using al-jerzeera for any source of news would be a mistake. But you help yourself. I realize you have sympathies there. All international news available in present day requires individuals to process, discern. Most are too intellectually lazy to do so.

[Anotherkiwi]

I lived in the Middle East for almost 4 years and spent some time in Qatar as well. Indeed I came very close to extending my time and accepting a new role there and I have my doubts about any neutrality of Al Jazeera in reporting news. Qatar is quite a highly regulated society.

I can't see how Al-Jazeera's neutrality could be compromised when it's reporting on events in Ukraine, a country which has no effect on the Middle East or the policies of any country in that area (unlike Russia).

BBC has definitely gone downhill in recent decades. I would maintain that PBS is a higher standard than either of those. However, I accept that both are indeed better than most commercial American news. I found the North American standards of TV so appalingly bad I just gave up watching it  completely within 6 months of arriving in Canada. The TV in my apartment was just left off and I watched everything via web.

Television New Zealand at least has its own reporters based in London and New York, so that we get our own "spin" on events in those areas.  Both are highly respected here for the quality of work that they have done over several years, and Jessica Mutch (the European correspondent) found herself at both Sochi for the Olympics and in the middle of the Maidan, so has certainly become acquainted with the area that we're all so concerned about.  I'm inclined to trust her reports - her work here included being Deputy Political Editor at Parliament, so I think it's safe to say she recognises spin when she sees it.

The big thing I have found here is that  Russians that I deal with on a regular/daily basis are in no way hostile to the people of Ukraine. They don't wish them ill at all. As I mentioned I have seen people at the local post office desparate to get cash to friends and family to help them and they are not so stupid as to think the money has any realistic chance to get there but feel they must try anyway. Nor do I find most here believe the government line completely either. BUT there is a definite Anti-American feeling in the air.

I don't think that too many members of this forum, whatever they may post here, actually believe that all Russians hate all Ukrainians.  However, you have hit the crux of the matter when you say that people there don't believe the Government line "completely."  Enough of them believe enough of that "line" to cause trouble, including the anti-American feeling to which you refer.  If you were to believe what seems to be the Russian line, and which has also been repeated in comments on articles and in various forums all around the globe, the whole Ukrainian uprising is a dastardly CIA plot, funded completely by the US government who paid mercenaries to go to Kyiv and kill whoever was unfortunate enough to get in their way.  The co-conspirators in this are of course the neo-Nazi Fascists who control every aspect of life in Ukraine    and are coming to eat the Russian children who live near the border!

My wife and i went for a stroll with the dog tonight and when one guy heard us speaking English he wanted to know if I was American and the feeling of both of us was he was looking for an argument. He was drunk  but was in no way hostile or abusive and just went on his way when he found out I was an Aussie.

I'm glad that it went no further.  Whereabouts in Russia do you live?

[Anotherkiwi]

Actually, I depend on BBC as one of my sources for a view of events outside of US media. IMHO, using al-jerzeera for any source of news would be a mistake. But you help yourself. I realize you have sympathies there. All international news available in present day requires individuals to process, discern. Most are too intellectually lazy to do so.

While I agree with most of this post, I don't know what you mean by the highlighted portion.  If you're implying that I favour them because I'm not as rabidly anti-Muslim as you, you definitely need to get out more.  Unlike in parts of Russia, Islam is so insignificant in Ukraine that I can't imagine any news outlet could possibly put a religious spin on what is happening in the country.

Added to which, the channel has picked up several awards from the Western world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera#Awards_and_accolades

[Larry1]

what is the point of this continual bickering.. clearly no one's mind will change if they are encased in cement. This serves no purpose at all.

I agree.  It reminds me of the remark of William James: A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.

[Faux Pas]

While I agree with most of this post, I don't know what you mean by the highlighted portion.  If you're implying that I favour them because I'm not as rabidly anti-Muslim as you, you definitely need to get out more.  Unlike in parts of Russia, Islam is so insignificant in Ukraine that I can't imagine any news outlet could possibly put a religious spin on what is happening in the country.

Added to which, the channel has picked up several awards from the Western world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera#Awards_and_accolades

Relax Francis, it wasn't a digg. In that post you mentioned al-jazeera first, as your news source for Ukraine. al-jazeera is slanted more than most news sources in that they will not offend Allah or the prophet in any way nor anything even remotely close that could be considered offensive. Do you really think it's possible to report world events without some offense to Islam? A-J is more tightly controlled than Western sources. Religion, corporatism, tomato, tomata

[Anotherkiwi]

Relax Francis, it wasn't a digg.

Whew! You had me worried for a moment! (Where's that icon for wiping one's brow?)

In that post you mentioned al-jazeera first, as your news source for Ukraine.

Only because of the reaction I thought I would get if I said BBC first.  It's not so much the quantity of reporting that I've seen, it's the fact that what I have seen is of far higher quality than most reporting from that area.

al-jazeera is slanted more than most news sources in that they will not offend Allah or the prophet in any way nor anything even remotely close that could be considered offensive. Do you really think it's possible to report world events without some offense to Islam? A-J is more tightly controlled than Western sources. Religion, corporatism, tomato, tomata

Yes, I do, if what they're reporting on has no relevance to Islam.

[XMan]

As is often the case, Faux Paus is simply right about everything he posted here. 

[Photo Guy]

Deccie, (with Fathertime's support), your analogy about Cuba and Ukraine is ridiculous. I can see a comparison with Guantanamo Base and Sevastopol. Sure, but back in the 60's, Kruschev actually told us that he will bury us. Presently, NATO and Ukraine and the West are NOT a military threat to Russia. So no comparison, no analogy. The people of Ukraine have the right to choose a Western path rather than a road similar to Putin's authoritarian regime. Russia does not want to allow them that choice. Russia is stirring things up in Ukraine, allowing mercenaries to cross the border into Ukraine with Russian weapons. Does Putin fear that NATO wants to conquer Russia? If so, that is truly paranoid and delusional. Putin is still living back in the cold war. And he apparently has no respect for his brothers who have also evolved from the Kievan Rus. Putin needs to help Russia evolve, for the good of his own people and the people of Ukraine.
   Let me add that yes, the US has meddled too much in other countries' affairs over the years. Each instance has to be looked at individually. The truth needs to be exposed. Right now in history, the people of Russia need to see the damage being done by Putin in Ukraine. Western and central Ukraine are now peaceful. However, in the east there is meddling and bloodshed made possible by Russia, instigated by Russia. Russian propaganda tells us that the new leaders are fascist extremists. Then why is there peace in Kiev and Lviv? Is it that western Ukraine agrees with the idea of rooting out corruption while eastern Ukraine is unable to confront that inner decay? The goals of eastern Ukraine can be achieved politically. Kiev has agreed to allow eastern Ukraine more local control and decision-making, yet Russian propaganda has promoted fear of Poroshenko's government. Putin could make an effort to stop the senseless rebelllion, but he is apparently happy with it. It looks like revenge to me.

[Isthmus]

I recently game back from travelling in FSU Central Asia and when in Kyrgyzstan I did catch some Russian news, frankly it is full of jingoistic propaganda. We live in a world where sources to alternative media are indeed available,  some are more objective and impartial than others but we do have different sources to choose from.

This is not 1930s Germany, its the wi-fi, globalised world of 2014 and if Russians want to stick their heads into the Crimean sand and tow some faux patriotic line it is up to them but there will be serious ramifications from this lunacy in Ukraine and it will be felt all across the FSU space if things keep escalating and ultimately it will be Russia's long term interests that will actually be most damaged IMHO.

Stupid decisions and mistakes need to be called out and not justified ...

[Photo Guy]

Exactly! 

[Doll]

OMG! I just wanted to suggest returning to "women" discussion- no, members are keeping the political debates.
 
Sick of it.
 

[Faux Pas]

Whew! You had me worried for a moment! (Where's that icon for wiping one's brow?)

Only because of the reaction I thought I would get if I said BBC first.  It's not so much the quantity of reporting that I've seen, it's the fact that what I have seen is of far higher quality than most reporting from that area.

Yes, I do, if what they're reporting on has no relevance to Islam.

AK, you come across most of the time as a highly intelligent dude yet, this is the part you still can't process, to the Muslim, everything has relevance to Islam.

[fathertime]

Deccie, (with Fathertime's support), your analogy about Cuba and Ukraine is ridiculous. I can see a comparison with Guantanamo Base and Sevastopol. Sure, but back in the 60's, Kruschev actually told us that he will bury us. Presently, NATO and Ukraine and the West are NOT a military threat to Russia. So no comparison, no analogy. 
 

I don't agree that what Deccie said was ridiculous...I think it is ridiculous that you would say it is ridiculous...There are some similarities between what happened in Cuba and what is happening in Ukraine...they are different but the concept of not wanting less than friendly countries close by is a reality.  It could be construed that we (The US) was/is slowly attempting to bury Russia through financial pressures.  I happen to think a strong Russia is for the best, as painful as it can be, I believe it would be worse without them. 


 If someday in the future Russia were to have been booted out of their ports in Crimea they could find themselves unable to easily counter Western attempts at over-interventionism in countries like Syria/Libya or wherever else.  This could lead to a further weakening of Russia and strengthening of the western position globally.  My belief is that if we (The US) had stayed out of the conflicts in the middle east and possibly Ukraine, Russian leadership might not have felt the need to behave aggressively in Crimea. 


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

Ukraine used to be a pro-Russian country.



More CIA backed subversion no doubt:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin_khuilo!

[Shadow]

More CIA backed subversion no doubt:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin_khuilo!

I guess that you being a movie director can see the tricks that are applied here.

[Gator]

 My belief is that if we (The US) had stayed out of the conflicts in the middle east and possibly Ukraine, Russian leadership might not have felt the need to behave aggressively in Crimea. 

World history is replete with strong dictators who have overstepped their boundaries.  I place Putin in that category as he wants Russia to regain its past prominence.  Such strides will build patriotism among the citizens so that he can stay in power, knowing that if he lost power he would go to prison in the manner of  Mikhail Khodorkovsky. 

About the US, we too have overstepped our boundaries yet out intent in the past 150 years has never been acquisitive.  Our intent has been more noble albeit misguided such as build the first democracy in an Arab country.  Would the world have been more stable if Saddam Hussein had been left in power?  Based on my time in Vietnam in the 1960s and a few years ago, the good guys won that conflict. 

[lordtiberius]

I guess that you being a movie director can see the tricks that are applied here.

I left the business in 2012 to focus on comic books:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Kursk-1-Sasha-Janowicz-ebook/dp/B00K65KJP0

check out the sample and tell me what you think.  It is not a critique against the much loved Putler.

That said, this video is a single cam hand held shot:



No camera tricks here that I can see.  Of course, if anyone can offer CIA involvement in the production and propagation of this video or the sincerity of the sentiment I am open.



A year ago, only 13% of Ukrainians supported NATO membership.  Now it is 47%.  It's going to happen.  Even with the feckless Obama in charge.  The anti-Americans can't stop this train.

[roykirk]

Is Fox news that bad?  Personally I wouldn't know, because I've never seen it.

Deccie, the best news coverage I have seen of and about the situation in Ukraine is from al-Jazeera and the BBC.  I can't imagine that anyone could describe Al-Jazeera as pro-Western, yet its reports and conclusions are far closer to what the traditional Western media (in general) have been reporting than to anything coming out of Russia.  It has actual Russians and Ukrainians reporting, not just people who happen to speak Russian and/or Ukrainian.

While I wouldn't be so stupid as to believe everything I've read or seen in the media here, I'm also not so stupid as to believe what Russian television seems to have been force-feeding its own audience.  Various Russians have pointed out on this forum that media in Russia is not restricted to television, press and radio - most people have access to the internet and can easily find other points of view.  However, how many actually bother?  I'm sure that (just like here, and Australia, and the USA, and the UK, and everywhere else) most people will see something on TV, take it pretty much at face value (unless they have first-hand knowledge of whatever the item covers), and carry on with their lives.  There has been plenty posted in these threads over the last few months that I was unaware of, and I'm glad that this resource is available - even if some of what is posted is absolute drivel.

Your last paragraph goes right to the point and hits home with me.  My mother-in-law, an otherwise lovely and intelligent woman, believes with complete devotion, everything she sees or reads thru Russian media.  In my experience, this attitude is emblematic of the Russian population at large.  She still thinks the Russia - Georgia war was started by the United States and that there were U.S. troops on the ground in Kiev who helped pull off the coup.  She has Internet and has a computer so she could easily go and check these things to find out how such conspiracy theories exist only in Russia, but she doesn't.  Her attitude seems to be, if the TV told me it's true, it must be.  To be fair, we've got a lot of people in the U.S. who think that way too, but certainly not in the numbers that exist in Russia. 

[Faux Pas]

Your last paragraph goes right to the point and hits home with me.  My mother-in-law, an otherwise lovely and intelligent woman, believes with complete devotion, everything she sees or reads thru Russian media.  In my experience, this attitude is emblematic of the Russian population at large.  She still thinks the Russia - Georgia war was started by the United States and that there were U.S. troops on the ground in Kiev who helped pull off the coup.  She has Internet and has a computer so she could easily go and check these things to find out how such conspiracy theories exist only in Russia, but she doesn't.  Her attitude seems to be, if the TV told me it's true, it must be.  To be fair, we've got a lot of people in the U.S. who think that way too, but certainly not in the numbers that exist in Russia.

I would disagree with your last sentence. We have much more willing to eat the slop fed them. The U.S. elected to President an inexperienced community organizer based solely on the media propaganda. The results speak for themselves.

[roykirk]

I would disagree with your last sentence. We have much more willing to eat the slop fed them. The U.S. elected to President an inexperienced community organizer based solely on the media propaganda. The results speak for themselves.

I agree to a point, but I also think you need to give me more credit than that.      I voted for Obama, not because of what the media told me, but because I studied his platform and beliefs and decided he best represented what I wanted in a president.  That, and he wasn't a Republican.      But you're very right in that we have our own sheep.  Back in 2003, the vast majority of the U.S. had bought the administration's line that Iraq was somehow directly involved in 9-11.  And then you have something like 40% of Americans who think 9-11 was somehow an inside job to give Bush an excuse to go to war with Islam.  There are very few people who despised Bush as much as I did, but come on.  That's simply lunacy and it's downright embarrassing as an American.