The Russia We'd Like To See

[AkMike]

It's a good thing that not everyone agrees with Doll, Most of the world can see the difference between right and wrong.

[AC]

RW are more stubborn when you threaten them (like with sanctions)))).
Many be not "more" but in a different way. Which one- you will never know.

And how stubborn are they when they are threatened with tanks, rocket launchers and thousands of thuggish mercenaries and others being financed by Putler?

Afterall millions of Ukrainian citizens are ethnically Russian, and they want huilo to take his army and weapons and get out of their nation.

Only a few like you are too thick-headed to comprehend that.

[Brasscasing]

Listen, "pride" is no something "Soviet", it is very Russian. I mean national.
I already wrote- we'd prefer eat dirt but not yield.

Stubbornness will not assist the Russians in Putin's folly. Eventually Russia will be forced to yield. The sad part about this statement/attitude/stance is it's completely unnecessary.

Doll, you assume that stoicism will bring the Russian people through this crisis. It will not. This is not WW2 where the Russian people were supported by the free  world (allies) with supplies, loans and military aid in their war which resulted in a successful conclusion against a common foe.

Seventy years later it's the Russian government and by extension Russia and the Russian people that are the common foe. The same fraternity of civilized nations that assisted Russia/USSR during WW2 and the later soviet breakup are now aligned against Russia.

The Russian nation stands alone, do you understand this?

You seem to think that making statements like "we'd prefer to eat dirt but not yield" is somehow brave, resolute or powerful. It's not, all it is self destructive.

Again using WW2 as the example; After the war the German population was aghast at how they'd allowed themselves to be led down the path to ruination by a madman. Well, the Russian population are being led down a similar path. The Russian people need to wake up. 

Russia's true path lies in being a productive member of the global community not as a 2nd or 3rd world pariah state which is where Putin is taking it.

Brass

[Gator]

What are " the other eastern European countries?"

Doll,

I need to read more to understand the context, and I can not do that because you did not give the source of your quote.

[Doll]

Just how well has that stubborness worked over the centuries?

Despite fabulous resources that are the envy of most nations, and should make the entire country a source of great wealth, Russians do not have a standard of living close to that of their Western European counterparts.  Its lands are drenched in blood, up to the 21st century.  So, does logic not dictate that a different approach, for the good of Russians, is required?

Neither do Japanese or Argentinians , just because the cultures are different. Russian do not have to "match  Western European counterparts", they have their own lifestyle.
As for basic things like food, cars , etc., Russians have it quite good

[Doll]

And you don't speak for humanity as a whole.   

No, I speak for Russians because I am Russian, was born there and lived for 44 years.

[AkMike]

You speak for some Russians not the whole. Get over yourself.

[AC]

You speak for some Russians not the whole. Get over yourself.

 

[Gator]

You speak for some Russians not the whole. Get over yourself.

Doll is a representative example based on the general support expressed for Putin in the Russian polls.   

Let us not be too harsh with Doll.  She is one of the very few Russians at RWD (maybe three) who have posted their support of Putin.  Her words give us some insight into the Russian  mentality that strongly supports Putin.

Other RW post at RWD, yet do not touch this subject.  I wonder if they are like my wife and 1) believe Crimea belonged to Russia,  2) do not want to believe what  their mother country is accused of doing in eastern Ukraine, and 3) hope the eastern Ukraine issue goes away in some form of stalemate. 

My wife receives her news in Russian on the Internet.  Today she told me the Russian news showed Putin shaking hands with the world leaders as if everything is friendly and peachy.

I do not know if it is related, yet she even had a vivid and long dream about nuclear war between the US and Russia.

[AkMike]

I do not know if it is related, yet she even had a vivid and long dream about nuclear war between the US and Russia.

 That is a very bad dream!

[Boethius]

Neither do Japanese or Argentinians , just because the cultures are different. Russian do not have to "match  Western European counterparts", they have their own lifestyle.
As for basic things like food, cars , etc., Russians have it quite good

GDP per capita for Japan (2013, IMF figures) - $36,654
                      for Russia                             - $24,298


That is a significant difference, particularly when one takes into account the effects of the tsunami on Japan's economy, its aging population, and its lack of natural resources.

I did not post that Russia had to "match Western European standards".  I merely pointed out that it is not providing a standard of living commensurate with its vast resource wealth.


Do you really want to compare Russia to a country that, well into the 1980's, threw its critics into the ocean from helicopters, and secretly adopted out the babies of political prisoners to their parents' tormentors?

[AC]

GDP per capita for Japan (2013, IMF figures) - $36,654
                      for Russia                             - $24,298


That is a significant difference, particularly when one takes into account the effects of the tsunami on Japan's economy, its aging population, and its lack of natural resources.

I did not post that Russia had to "match Western European standards".  I merely pointed out that it is not providing a standard of living commensurate with its vast resource wealth.


Do you really want to compare Russia to a country that, well into the 1980's, threw its critics into the ocean from helicopters, and secretly adopted out the babies of political prisoners to their parents' tormentors?

Looking at Japan is critical to compare.  A tiny island nation without the vast natural resources, yet far more advanced than Russia in so many ways.

But many Russians are simply incredibly stubborn and their pride gets in the way of their ability to see the obvious.  I don't think with Doll any amount of persuasion will ever change her mind.

[AC]

Neither do Japanese or Argentinians , just because the cultures are different. Russian do not have to "match  Western European counterparts", they have their own lifestyle.

Russians do not have to match the lifestyles of their W. Europe counterparts, but clearly when you look at the wealthy Russians they do wish to match it.  The other Russians would like to purchase food and other things from Europe and the USA, but because of Putin's actions the price is out of reach for most.

So their lifestyle becomes cabbage and potato's.  Too bad for them.  You talk a good game, but you're no longer there having to go through what they are.

[Gator]

GDP per capita for Japan (2013, IMF figures) - $36,654
                      for Russia                             - $24,298

 


The figure for Russia seems too high.  The "IMF Financial Data by Country" reports Russia's 2013 GDP per capita (current prices) at $14,973, making the disparity between Russia and Japan even greater. 

I used the World Bank data because they are easier to extract and do not adjust the much earlier years for current prices.  As I posted above, the World Bank calculated the 2013 per capita GDP as $14,612, very near the IMF calculation. 

[Gator]

Each evening this week the Al Jazeeranews network is giving extended coverage of the new Cold War between Russia and the West.  It is presented in the program titled Real Money with Ali Velshi.   Tonight the program covered  Artic shipping lanes, Ukraine, Putin etc. for 30 minutes.  Tomorrow the program will cover the sanctions.   Al Jazeera endeavors to be balanced, presenting all sides of a debate.

Ali's show aired 3-4 times each day so this can be recorded.

[ML]

East Germany without natural resources has closed the large gap with West Germany.

East Germany (and its citizens) did not do this.

Tax money paid by West German citizens was used to close the gap.

Can you imagine the huge taxes South Korean citizens will pay to close the gap when North Korea finally collapses?

The stupidity of communism is virtually beyond belief.

[AkMike]

The stupidity of communism is virtually beyond belief.

Even more so for those that try to resurrect and defend  it..

[Doll]

You speak for some Russians not the whole. Get over yoursel

I am responding on " how do WE see Russia" . You say "we" generalizing.  If "we" are all Americans then I can speak for all Russians
So YOU get over your Big Brother habits

[fathertime]

I am responding on " how do WE see Russia" . You say "we" generalizing.  If "we" are all Americans then I can speak for all Russians
So YOU get over your Big Brother habits

They certainly ARE NOT speaking for all Americans.  Much if not a majority of Americans would like for us to disengage in this part of the world. 

Russian Women aren't under sanctions just the invading government and it's 'useful idiot puppets' that cannot reason for themselves.

I think quite a few Americans aren't interested in really paying attention to a 'non western' perspective on things, many would rather blindly hear what they want and leave it at that.


Fathertime!     

[AkMike]

Go back and re read it sweetykins....
 I would write it in crayon for you but it wouldn't do any good..

 You still don't speak for all Russians and I NEVER said that I was presumptuous to speak foe all Americans.

[AkMike]

I think quite a few Americans aren't interested in really paying attention to a 'non western' perspective on things, many would rather blindly hear what they want and leave it at that.


Fathertime!   

FT I do manage to understand both sides in this invasion. I just freely choose the Ukrainian side because I do understand it.
 I was in Kyiv in the middle of the Orange Revolution and I was there for EuroMaidan also. Yes the shooting too.

 Have you ever been in Ukraine? If so for how many days or years?

[Doll]

Boe, I am not sure if you've ever lived in Russia or  USSR at all

[AkMike]

I never said that I lived in the USSR or Russia did I?

 But you did try to speak for all Russians by saying,"No, I speak for Russians because I am Russian, was born there and lived for 44 years."

 

[AkMike]

Doll, read this and look up any big words that you don't understand.

""Timothy Snyder pointed out the difference between people in Russia and Ukraine talking about the conflict. In Russia 70-year-old myths about Ukraine are still rampant generally laced with fallacies and propaganda, ignoring the new reality. Professor Snyder suggested that “Russian speaking people in Ukraine demanding a civil society based on rule-of-law may lead to similar demands in Russia, represents a real fear for Russian authorities”. However, the reality goes much deeper, according to Timothy Snyder in that Russian government funds propaganda through a variety of tools and this represents a challenge, particularly for Europeans, Americans, and Russians. He described the gigantic scale that the propaganda war has taken on inside Russia. TV channels pretending to offer competing versions of the truth supply in reality a constant diet of the altered truth. He cited the example of a panel of ‘experts’ that commented on the downing of MH17 with none of the versions being true, whilst ranging from the ridiculous to the heinous. Taking part in such exercise, says Professor Snyder, is taking part in attacking the truth. It also leads people to question as to which channel or source offers the truth.

In closing, Professor Snyder wondered how far a society could allow fallacies to go whilst individuals can remain ‘themselves’, citing a number of examples of contradictions and fallacies such as ‘There is no Ukrainian State, while saying at the same time that the Ukrainian State is oppressive.’ “If we cannot address contradictions, doublethink and fallacies,” says Professor Snyder, “society will quickly lose decency and the rule-of-law, the very same basic elements that brought on the Maidan.”

[Doll]

Russians do not have to match the lifestyles of their W. Europe counterparts, but clearly when you look at the wealthy Russians they do wish to match it.  The other Russians would like to purchase food and other things from Europe and the USA, but because of Putin's actions the price is out of reach for most.

So their lifestyle becomes cabbage and potato's.  Too bad for them.  You talk a good game, but you're no longer there having to go through what they are.

I was on " cabbage and potatoes" many times and we survived