Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?

[Shadow]

My Lugansk fiancee, now living with me in Lviv, has read this entire thread and is disgusted by the pro-Putin bloviating of Shadow, Live from Ukraine, Belvis , and Doll. None of you has been subjected to what she has been, driven from her home by Russian mercenaries and Chechen gunmen, and escaping the horror that is present day Lugansk by the skin of her teeth, in June. She would gladly target the invaders and annihilate them, if she had the wherewithal.

Tell her I offer my apologies for offending her, and that I understand someone who has directly suffered from the conflict would have such feelings. It does not change my position, but I respect hers.

[Boethius]

And so is Russia.

But at some point, Russia will not be willing to accept that double whammy.  For what purpose?  For Crimea, a region it will be subsidizing for a generation, at least?  For Donbas?  I don't think so.

[cc3]

Tell her I offer my apologies for offending her, and that I understand someone who has directly suffered from the conflict would have such feelings. It does not change my position, but I respect hers.

She thanks you for your graciousness. Would that Russia could exhibit the same.

[Shadow]

She thanks you for your graciousness. Would that Russia could exhibit the same.

I am too hoping there can be a breakthrough that will allow Ukraine to start healing the wounds that this conflict has caused. It will take a long time.

[Gator]

It seems to me that YOU JayH, have behaved like the hypocrite and 'wasted forum space'.  Your limited brain has failed to conceive that ultimately there will have to be a give on both sides to reach an agreement...

There is always some bending and giving.  For example, Japan upon surrendering was allowed to keep its emperor.  And the allies  gave Nazis a trial before hanging them. 

You are like a dog with a bone. 

[fathertime]

European leaders have stated the reason for sanctions is to change policy, not punish the Russian people.  So, if behaviour changes, the sanctions may be lifted.  If not, they won't be.


The Russian hinterlands may support Putin, but in time, the sanctions will have an effect because of the whammy of low oil prices.

Sine the EU is going down this path, the most likely way to change policy is to try to get the Russian people to turn against Putin, so I believe the sanctions are indeed to 'punish' the Russian people in the hopes they will blame their leadership.  Despite the EU leaders obligatorily stating differently, I don't see how it can't be seen as punishment. 

There are statements by EU leaders suggesting more sanctions not be imposed now, despite Russian recalcitrance.  That suggests the intent is not to punish.

Maybe the sanctions aren't and future sanctions are not producing the effects intended?


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

There is always some bending and giving.  For example, Japan upon surrendering was allowed to keep its emperor.  And the allies  gave Nazis a trial before hanging them. 

You are like a dog with a bone.

It is your prerogative to take the mental shortcut and think that this current situation is analogous to the Japanese or Nazi's. 


You are like an grumpy old man who hasn't visited the toilet yet this week. 


Fathertime!   

[cc3]

That's GROSS!

[Shadow]

Sine the EU is going down this path, the most likely way to change policy is to try to get the Russian people to turn against Putin, so I believe the sanctions are indeed to 'punish' the Russian people in the hopes they will blame their leadership.  Despite the EU leaders obligatorily stating differently, I don't see how it can't be seen as punishment. 


Fathertime!

Ever since Putin showed to be a trong leader the West has tried to change the regime. However the people they have tried to put forward have not captured the attention of the Russian population. One reason may be that Russians do not just get behind someone because he puts his face in the newpaper.

As for the current choice Navalny, can anyone outside of Russia (sorry Mendy) tell me what his ideology is, what his background, and why people should put trust in a person convicted for corruption to fight it.

There will be change, and Putin will arrange his defeat in a future election. But those taking over will not be the ones put forward by the West, but someone given a chance within the power structure that exists today.

[fathertime]

Ever since Putin showed to be a trong leader the West has tried to change the regime.

Hey Shadow,  I certainly don't disagree, as this is not the first time this has been raised in different locations around the world. Can you provide an example or two regarding Putin?  In what ways has the West undermined Putin prior to this latest episode in Ukraine?


Thanks,
Fathertime!   

[Gator]

You are like an grumpy old man who hasn't visited the toilet yet this week. 

Believe me, you are a surrogate for a toilet.  I feel better already. 

[Belvis]

Belvis, they don't understand the whole picture like you and I do.

Probably nobody can understand the whole picture. But at least we have access to first-hand info from the field, that makes harder manipulating us.
I remember as we saw the world during SU, they resemble me soviet citizens

[fathertime]

Believe me, you are a surrogate for a toilet.  I feel better already.

I don't believe you feel better actually.


It is best we confine you to toilet talk since you haven proven to be a little rusty (and crusty) on talking about the subject at hand! 


Fathertime! 

[Shadow]

Hey Shadow,  I certainly don't disagree, as this is not the first time this has been raised in different locations around the world. Can you provide an example or two regarding Putin?  In what ways has the West undermined Putin prior to this latest episode in Ukraine?


Thanks,
Fathertime!   

1. Constant pointing at a perceived lack of freedom of press
2. Constant rumurs of elections being fraudulent
3. On every untimely death of a publicly known person or journalist allegations of involvement of Putin
4. On every legal action against a publicly known person allegations of involvement of Putin
5. Putting forward several 'candidates' for presidency who got themselves arrested to obtain publicity
6. Painting nationalisim in Russia as 'Putins desire to return to Soviet times'.

Just a number of things that constantly enhaced the image of Putin as the 'new Tzar' and prepared Russia for retaking their role as 'enemy nr 1 of the free West', which was set in motion last year.

I certainly do not consider Putin to be holy, and he has knowingly put all negative attention on himself. However he is in no way alone, there is a team around him that has been working together for a long time, ant that is planning and educating the future.
Russia knows they have the option to retire Putin if the situation gets out of control.  Retiring Putin may for the West seem like an opening for a new friendly area, for the Russians it will only be a return to the time where the power was invisible.

[Doll]

My Lugansk fiancee, now living with me in Lviv, has read this entire thread and is disgusted by the pro-Putin bloviating of Shadow, Live from Ukraine, Belvis , and Doll. None of you has been subjected to what she has been, driven from her home by Russian mercenaries and Chechen gunmen, and escaping the horror that is present day Lugansk by the skin of her teeth, in June. She would gladly target the invaders and annihilate them, if she had the wherewithal.

I 've not lived under her circumstanses but first- I don't care if she is disgusted by me, next- Russia didn't start it.
Let her blame Petro

[Doll]

Probably nobody can understand the whole picture. But at least we have access to first-hand info from the field, that makes harder manipulating us.
I remember as we saw the world during SU, they resemble me soviet citizens

\
Belvis, yes we can see the picture. Who gains from a long lasting conflict?
Then you know the whole picture.
Yes, The Americans resemble Soviet people- they believe news and you tube!!!!!!!
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

My Lugansk fiancee, now living with me in Lviv, has read this entire thread and is disgusted by the pro-Putin bloviating of Shadow, Live from Ukraine, Belvis , and Doll. None of you has been subjected to what she has been, driven from her home by Russian mercenaries and Chechen gunmen, and escaping the horror that is present day Lugansk by the skin of her teeth, in June. She would gladly target the invaders and annihilate them, if she had the wherewithal.

I'm glad your fiancee is safe.  As for her being disgusted because I see no pleasure in people dying or suffering, that is her choice and  has no bearing on my life nor my beliefs.  I hope your/her public statement of outrage helps.

[Doll]

For Lugansk Fiancee from Russia with love))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gv7VqFzJWzg

[Boethius]

Your youtube link to a resident of Luhansk who has lost her home and her city, likely forever, is appalling.

[Boethius]

\
Belvis, yes we can see the picture. Who gains from a long lasting conflict?
Then you know the whole picture.
Yes, The Americans resemble Soviet people- they believe news and you tube!!!!!!!

You see the picture from your tower. 
The American people in no way resemble the Soviet people.  Further, most Americans don't care about the conflict in Ukraine.

[Shadow]

You see the picture from your tower. 
The American people in no way resemble the Soviet people.  Further, most Americans don't care about the conflict in Ukraine.

Actually tey do. During the inauguration of Obama I recall MrsShadow telling how it reminded her of Soviet leader installations.
The blind allegiange to the nation, putting the coutry above oneself and strong military symbolism were things that looked like the Soviet Union.
There are huge differences without any doubt, but when you see such displays on TV there is a strong resemblence.

[Boethius]

Actually tey do. During the inauguration of Obama I recall MrsShadow telling how it reminded her of Soviet leader installations.

Given that almost half of Americans did not vote for Obama and many of those will never accept him as their president, and that the House of Representatives have tried to stymie almost everything he has proposed, including the appointment of his cabinet, I think the comparison is stretching it to an extreme.

The blind allegiange to the nation, putting the coutry above oneself and strong military symbolism were things that looked like the Soviet Union. There are huge differences without any doubt, but when you see such displays on TV there is a strong resemblence.

You can't take what you see on television and assume it represents reality on the ground.  There is a lot of criticism of America, and its actions, among Americans.  There never was in the USSR, unless you wanted to be jailed.  Yes, Americans support their military, but they don't support all their country's military actions. 

[AC]

Actually tey do. During the inauguration of Obama I recall MrsShadow telling how it reminded her of Soviet leader installations.
The blind allegiange to the nationPresident, putting the coutry above oneself and strong military symbolism were things that looked like the Soviet Union.
There are huge differences without any doubt, but when you see such displays on TV there is a strong resemblence.

I would change blind allegiance to the nation to blind allegiance to the President.  We have our own sheeple here in that regard who thinks that Obama walks on water and anytime someone criticizes Obama he resorts to implied racial insults. 

In that regard he is very similar to Doll and Belvis getting upset when someone insults Putin.  Of course the big glaring difference and the weakness in your theory is that in the USA there are multiple media outlets and multiple opinions.  Mostly the USA is divided on red/blue lines whereas in Russia there is no real opposition.

[Boethius]

We have our own sheeple here in that regard who thinks that Obama walks on water and anytime someone criticizes Obama he resorts to implied racial insults.

You mean Muzh.  He has stated he no longer supports Obama, and hasn't since before the last election.

[AC]

For Lugansk Fiancee from Russia with love))

Are you fluent in German, Doll? (it often seems you don't understand English, so I doubt it)