What Explains Russians loss of Memory ?

[Doll]

 http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbsw5RG45TAuv7VtOPtAaDK39Gzm5PI2fUqHVCPGJZk_a6ozUmaQ
Kiev Rus map

[Doll]

History if Kiev Rus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

[Doll]

How could Russians and Ukrainians be brothers when your dear leader claims that Ukrainians are a bunch of fascist Nazi's???  Are you making a Freudian slip and admitting that Russians are a bunch of fascists?

Can you provide a link where Putin says it? About Ukrainian people?

[Muzh]

OK, I tried to keep it simple. I will now do a mini rant. Keep in mind it is just opinion.

I had the same discussion with my wife as you did with yours however I had already lived some years in Russia before I met her and had come to a conclusion of my own. It was the same reason why I moved on to Ukraine.

You specifically mentioned how former SU countries were lied to. The lies were more personal to these countries. The lies were of atrocities, genocide, betrayals etc. Of course ethnic Russians were lied to also but it was not so personal. They were only lied to. Not to say that Russians did not get hurt from these lies also but not at all like the FSU countries and not just FSU but also other countries who crossed the SU path.

So what if next year after industrialized Eastern Ukraine is a totally destroyed wasteland and the war is over, Putin were to admit that he had a fair sized army there from the beginning? There would be some mothers in Russia directly affected who might feel betrayed. There might be a movement of sorts but overall he would likely still be extremely popular.... because of the strong Nationalism that exists. On the other hand Ukraine would be even more off the charts angry and might wonder why Russians were not so angry also.

The wife believes the answer to your question lies with propaganda, something in the neighborhood of 60/40 vs Nationalism. I believe that people are born into Nationalism long before they get to the propaganda 60/40 or at the very least that Nationalism is the stronger of the two. Your propaganda will not mean much to me without it.

There are probably Russians here that will hate my guts for saying this. There are many open minded fellows here that will say I am generalizing a whole country. Sorry but I have literally met several thousand Russians and either openly or quietly a majority of the ethnic chosen ones have shown me that they are the most prejudice and Nationalist people I ever met (I've never been to the Arab world).

Just so I don't come off as totally loony with hatred for Russians I will say that I do not hate anyone. I believe in the human condition and can accept most anything. I also believe that the US is #2 on the list. And on that subject I will add that I do not believe Nationalism requires intelligence or action. I believe that many Americans are ignorant of the rest of the world, could care less about it and because of that are just as Nationalistic via their ignorance. In other words, there is nothing outside their own little world.

What I did come away with in my point of view is that a large amount of Russians have their nose up in the air and will either believe anything the government says or they just want it to be that way because they are better. A mentality of "If you have been harmed by us then it is your own fault". Again, something you can find in the US but not as pervasive in my opinion.

Ukraine is not a brother to the Russian people. They are not family. A slave owner in the old south might call his slaves part of his family but they are not so similar. In this case Ukrainians are not ethnic Russians. They share some language and some history but they are not blood really. They are only a buffer with NATO, a place to be burned before the army can get to the motherland, an economy to be exploited.

And so that is my opinion and my answer. Simply put, it doesn't matter to a majority of ethnic Russians. Whatever ill's occurred to you it was likely your own fault, etc. Russian Nationalism. IMO

Boy, did I missed you!!


 

[bagalia]

As I said before. In the old American south, slave owners would say that their slaves were a part of the family. The reality was that other than obedient slaves they had nothing much in common. The term just hid the slavery.

You can say that Russians and Ukrainians are brothers and throw up maps of Kieven-Rus. You can point to ancient history and similarities but you cannot take the word "brother" and define it to cover Ukraine and Russia. You might have a brother in Ukraine and one in Russia but the two countries are not immediate family. At one point in history you may have been considered brothers of a sort but that ended back in the 13th century.

We can go on for a long time with this blame the brother game. We might start with the Holodomor and ask why a brother would do this to a brother. Consider this. If Russians and Ukrainians are brothers then why are Ukrainians not considered ethnic Russians? It is because you are not brothers. One is Russian and the other is Ukrainian. Whatever link you had is long gone.

We all have history. We are all brothers in a sense and probably all of us come from one slime pool but do not use the word brothers to hide an uneven relationship.

[AC]

We can go on for a long time with this blame the brother game. We might start with the Holodomor and ask why a brother would do this to a brother. Consider this. If Russians and Ukrainians are brothers then why are Ukrainians not considered ethnic Russians? It is because you are not brothers. One is Russian and the other is Ukrainian. Whatever link you had is long gone.

We all have history. We are all brothers in a sense and probably all of us come from one slime pool but do not use the word brothers to hide an uneven relationship.

Might as well also claim that the Hebrew slaves were "brothers" of the ancient Egyptians.  I'm pretty sure that a majority of Ukrainians now view Russia in a similar way.

[Doll]

bagalia, your thinking is childish. "Brothers" don't mean you have a brother in another country and certainly one nation is called Russians, another is Ukrainian, one more Byelorussians. All these three SLAVIC nations have always been very close.
Eastern Slavic group.
And yes- I "threw" the map and the History of Kiev Rus to prove it.

The East Slavs are Slavic peoples speaking East Slavic languages. Formerly the main population of the medieval state of Kievan Rus, by the seventeenth century they evolved into the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian[1] peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs

[Doll]

Ah, I got it- what you are missing. It is a Russian expression -"brotherly people".

[jone]

As I said before. In the old American south, slave owners would say that their slaves were a part of the family. The reality was that other than obedient slaves they had nothing much in common. The term just hid the slavery.

You can say that Russians and Ukrainians are brothers and throw up maps of Kieven-Rus. You can point to ancient history and similarities but you cannot take the word "brother" and define it to cover Ukraine and Russia. You might have a brother in Ukraine and one in Russia but the two countries are not immediate family. At one point in history you may have been considered brothers of a sort but that ended back in the 13th century.

We can go on for a long time with this blame the brother game. We might start with the Holodomor and ask why a brother would do this to a brother. Consider this. If Russians and Ukrainians are brothers then why are Ukrainians not considered ethnic Russians? It is because you are not brothers. One is Russian and the other is Ukrainian. Whatever link you had is long gone.

We all have history. We are all brothers in a sense and probably all of us come from one slime pool but do not use the word brothers to hide an uneven relationship.

The correct term would be 'Sphere of Influence'.  Translated loosely, it means the people close to us that we can beat the Sh&t out of.

[AC]

bagalia, your thinking is childish. "Brothers" don't mean you have a brother in another country and certainly one nation is called Russians, another is Ukrainian, one more Byelorussians. All these three SLAVIC nations have always been very close.
Eastern Slavic group.
And yes- I "threw" the map and the History of Kiev Rus to prove it.

The East Slavs are Slavic peoples speaking East Slavic languages. Formerly the main population of the medieval state of Kievan Rus, by the seventeenth century they evolved into the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian[1] peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs

Well at one time they were more "brotherly" but now Ukraine no longer trusts Russia.  Even Belarus seems to be on the side of the Ukrainians.  You catch more flies with honey.

 

[Chicagoguy]

I told my Moscow friend to read The Moscow Times". It was readily available the last few times I was there. Plus it is free. Same for St. Petersburg Times.

As they are foreign owned I am sure they worry some about their future but it seems they just report all the news and do not editorialize any. At least in my opinion.

Plus it is available online.

[AC]

I told my Moscow friend to read The Moscow Times". It was readily available the last few times I was there. Plus it is free. Same for St. Petersburg Times.

As they are foreign owned I am sure they worry some about their future but it seems they just report all the news and do not editorialize any. At least in my opinion.

Plus it is available online.

Apparently published by the Finns with US financing.   

[Shadow]

As I said before. In the old American south, slave owners would say that their slaves were a part of the family. The reality was that other than obedient slaves they had nothing much in common. The term just hid the slavery.

You can say that Russians and Ukrainians are brothers and throw up maps of Kieven-Rus. You can point to ancient history and similarities but you cannot take the word "brother" and define it to cover Ukraine and Russia. You might have a brother in Ukraine and one in Russia but the two countries are not immediate family. At one point in history you may have been considered brothers of a sort but that ended back in the 13th century.

We can go on for a long time with this blame the brother game. We might start with the Holodomor and ask why a brother would do this to a brother. Consider this. If Russians and Ukrainians are brothers then why are Ukrainians not considered ethnic Russians? It is because you are not brothers. One is Russian and the other is Ukrainian. Whatever link you had is long gone.

We all have history. We are all brothers in a sense and probably all of us come from one slime pool but do not use the word brothers to hide an uneven relationship.

I guess you need to educate yourself about the holodomor. It has been discussed here many times.

[AC]

I guess you need to educate yourself about the holodomor. It has been discussed here many times.

Links please?  I'm pretty sure the consensus conclusion was that Stalin did commit genocide, mostly against the Ukrainians as a way to subjugate them politically.

[jone]

I guess you need to educate yourself about the holodomor. It has been discussed here many times.

Which education should he pursue, Shadow?  The old Soviet version of history?  Or what really happened?

Simply because a country has lived with domination from another country for a period of time (and that country's failed political policies) does not make them brothers.  It makes them common parties to a state imposed disaster.  Perhaps a better analogy would be that they were victims of the same car wreck.  But Russia was driving the car.

That is the common take when I talk to my Ukrainian friends. 

[AkMike]

X2   

[AC]

Which education should he pursue, Shadow?  The old Soviet version of history?  Or what really happened?

This seems to be at the core as to why there is such a large disagreement about what is going on in E. Ukraine.

Although the former Soviet collapsed in Russia it is largely very similar -- it's just that there is no longer any pretense about all komrads being the same.  Now people know it's the connected Oligarchs along side Putin and then everybody down at the bottom.  Same as it's ever been, in practice.

[Muzh]

Which education should he pursue, Shadow?  The old Soviet version of history?  Or what really happened?

Simply because a country has lived with domination from another country for a period of time (and that country's failed political policies) does not make them brothers. It makes them common parties to a state imposed disaster.  Perhaps a better analogy would be that they were victims of the same car wreck.  But Russia was driving the car.

That is the common take when I talk to my Ukrainian friends.

Akin to this:

[jone]

I wrote a letter to the Packers management asking them to take Cutler's salary as part of their salary cap.  I mean, what other player can guarantee the Packers two wins each year?

(I also wrote one to the Bears thanking them for paying 8 Million of Julius Pepper's salary this year.)

[Chicagoguy]

Thanks for thinking of us jone.  As the Cubs say - Next Year

[mendeleyev]

Bagalia, it is nice to see you.

Your input was very important, as this is true of almost any nation near Russia. You'd get much the same reaction from Poles, Czechs, etc.

I do however count Russians and Ukrainians as brothers, but that does not mean that one brother owns or has the right to control the other.

When you look at the history of the KievanRus, perhaps using the current logic of the Russians, it is the Ukrainians who should be controlling the Russians. Taking Russian thinking to the most logical conclusion, perhaps some might claim that Russia is not a real country, but instead is a part of Ukraine.

[JayH]

Bagalia, it is nice to see you.

Your input was very important, as this is true of almost any nation near Russia. You'd get much the same reaction from Poles, Czechs, etc.

I do however count Russians and Ukrainians as brothers, but that does not mean that one brother owns or has the right to control the other.

When you look at the history of the KievanRus, perhaps using the current logic of the Russians, it is the Ukrainians who should be controlling the Russians. Taking Russian thinking to the most logical conclusion, perhaps some might claim that Russia is not a real country, but instead is a part of Ukraine.

 
"Russian thinking to the most logical "       the current logic of the Russians

Russian & logic = oxymoron?