The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine

[Belvis]

As I have preached time and time again, control of the whole of Ukraine is important for his Eurasian Union.

One of stereotypes you sincerely believe in. Relations with China is much more important in economic sense. 
For sure, European Union has pushed away Ukraine for at least 6 years to begin procedure of joining, and another EU (Eurasian Union) needs so much Ukraine to survive 

Let's face it..Europe is run by a woman and the USA is run by a woman in a mans body..Putin knows this and will do as he likes,while the west bleats like Sheep.

What sense to complain and bitterly cry at the forum?
Go ahead! Enroll in Ukrainian volunteer battalion and show all these women in power how true men can fight and die for the glory of Ukrainian oligarchs! 

[Doll]

 I think that at this point EU is interested in peace with Russia and doesn't care for "control of the whole of Ukraine "
Ukraine is sinking. EU doesn't want any more conflicts.

[Doll]

 
Go ahead! Enroll in Ukrainian volunteer battalion and show all these women in power how true men can fight and die for the glory of Ukrainian oligarchs! 

Go ahead, Mendy show them!

[Chelseaboy]

Belvis,

          You love Russia so much,have you taken any holidays to fight in Ukraine lately ?

Nah....thought not.

[lordtiberius]

Belvis, I know you are an unfree man spoonfed hateful propaganda but reading your posts is like getting a bird's eye view of a spelunker down a moral sewer.  Its filthy devoid of any compassion or mercy.  May you reap what you sow

[Belvis]

Belvis,

          You love Russia so much,have you taken any holidays to fight in Ukraine lately ?

Nah....thought not.

I'm  law-abiding citizen and see not reason to intervene in Ukrainian civil war. If you would propose me to send money there I would consider it as a fair deal.
Besides our rulers are close to reach there some kind of peace settlement, we should encourage them to succeed. Should we? 

[Belvis]

  May you reap what you sow

Thank you,  my friend. Though I know you're a troll but you're a troll with the kind heart 

[Boethius]

One of stereotypes you sincerely believe in. Relations with China is much more important in economic sense.

Were it not important, Putin would not have demanded Ukraine delay entering the Association Agreement.

[AC]

Go ahead! Enroll in Ukrainian volunteer battalion and show all these women in power how true men can fight and die for the glory of Ukrainian oligarchs! 

Sadly there is more truth in that statement then most care to admit, which is why the Ukrainian soldiers fighting the battles have alluded to wanting to turn their weapons onto some of those in power in Kiev.

[Boethius]

die for the glory of Ukrainian oligarchs[/size]!

Would it be better to live for the glory of Russian oligarchs?

[BillyB]

Billy B, we took an oath.  Do those oaths have expiration dates? 

Ukraine is in a process of choosing a path for their future. Most thought West was the way to go. Protesting and conflict against Russia are the first stages of taking the path westward. People take oaths for noble causes and if the West proves to be cowards and not back up Ukraine properly on their journey, Ukrainians will question the oath and desire to join them.


I've already seen changes among Ukrainian attitudes towards the West. When Russia initially invaded Crimea, I seen my wife and MIL very optimistic that America, who has always stood up for freedom, will come and rescue Ukraine. My wife asked me "Billy, will America come help my country?" I told her "With Obama president, probably not in the amount that is needed since Obama doesn't think war is a solution." I've even seen Ukrainian ladies here at the forum show optimism. One Ukrainian lady posted a youtube video of Abrams tanks on a moving train and asked if it were true the Americans are coming to her country. Those ladies had faith in America. My wife and MIL now view Obama as an extremely weak man. I'm sure more and more Ukrainians everyday are changing their minds.

Courage is never wasted Billy B.  Love never dies:

Courage is wasted if one dies senselessly. The goal isn't to die for ones country. The goal is to make the other bastard die for his country.

Relations with China is much more important in economic sense. 

China could very well be the most important country to Russia right now. There is a chance Russia will be involved in a major war that lasts years, China could supply them the materials they need to sustain a lengthy conflict. America supplying the Allies during WW2 worked out very well for America. China would love the same opportunity.

[AC]

Would it be better to live for the glory of Russian oligarchs?

I read that 600 people from Debaltseve chose to go to Ukraine and only 30 chose to go to Russia, so apparently not.

[Boethius]

This may also be a reason Germany doesn't want to arm Ukraine -


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

[Doll]

I read that 600 people from Debaltseve chose to go to Ukraine and only 30 chose to go to Russia, so apparently not.

Of course -this is their country.

[Doll]

I read it- they all stayed in Ukraine.

[BillyB]

This may also be a reason Germany doesn't want to arm Ukraine -


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

Germany training Russian troops. France wanting to sell them warships. America overpaying on Russian helicopters. Blame game and finger pointing.


It's becoming more apparent Obama's reset button with Russia didn't work too well. I hope he doesn't hit it that thing again. For years, our intelligence agency said Russia's activities were counter productive to American interests. Romney in the last presidential debate said Russia is our greatest advisory. These latest events shouldn't come as a surprise. We weren't clueless about Russia but Obama and Europe thought they could turn the world into one big happy place boosting Russia's military and putting money into Putin's pocket.

[AC]

Of course -this is their country.

As usual you're missing the point entirely.  Putin claims he needed to protect ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.  Why did they choose to go towards Ukraine and not into "NovoRossya" or Russia proper?  Isn't Russia a wealthier better country to live in than Ukraine?  That is what we've been led to believe.  Are you admitting that it's not true?

[lordtiberius]

Thank you,  my friend. Though I know you're a troll but you're a troll with the kind heart 

That was funny.  It is too bad circumstances aren't different.  But I think fear our two nations will do what our parents and grandparents refused to do which is to say, we will blow each other up.  It is too bad.  I know that when Russians come to America they don't want to leave ask Anna Chapman.

Germany training Russian troops. France wanting to sell them warships. America overpaying on Russian helicopters. Blame game and finger pointing.


It's becoming more apparent Obama's reset button with Russia didn't work too well. I hope he doesn't hit it that thing again. For years, our intelligence agency said Russia's activities were counter productive to American interests. Romney in the last presidential debate said Russia is our greatest advisory. These latest events shouldn't come as a surprise. We weren't clueless about Russia but Obama and Europe thought they could turn the world into one big happy place boosting Russia's military and putting money into Putin's pocket.

The Krauts have been bed buddies Russians long before Merkel and Schroeder.  Ask Herman Simm. 

That mutual cooperation has historically been a hatred for Poland.

Ukraine is in a process of choosing a path for their future. Most thought West was the way to go. Protesting and conflict against Russia are the first stages of taking the path westward. People take oaths for noble causes and if the West proves to be cowards and not back up Ukraine properly on their journey, Ukrainians will question the oath and desire to join them.

Would you rather live like a slave or die like a man?  If Poroshenko were to meet some "accident," and Ukraine were to take up with a Kadyrov or allow Yanukovych to return.  How long do you think that will last?

They will resist and they will win, because small army strategies generally win over time especially when armed with moral authority.  Ask Malcolm Gladwell.

Your refusal to acknowledge the political accomplishment of Euromaidan or generations of heroism of the Ukrainian people is disconcerting and wrong.

I've already seen changes among Ukrainian attitudes towards the West. When Russia initially invaded Crimea, I seen my wife and MIL very optimistic that America, who has always stood up for freedom, will come and rescue Ukraine. My wife asked me "Billy, will America come help my country?" I told her "With Obama president, probably not in the amount that is needed since Obama doesn't think war is a solution." I've even seen Ukrainian ladies here at the forum show optimism. One Ukrainian lady posted a youtube video of Abrams tanks on a moving train and asked if it were true the Americans are coming to her country. Those ladies had faith in America. My wife and MIL now view Obama as an extremely weak man. I'm sure more and more Ukrainians everyday are changing their minds.

Does your wife and MIL view America as extremely morally degenerate weaklings?

Courage is wasted if one dies senselessly. The goal isn't to die for ones country. The goal is to make the other bastard die for his country.

Kites fly highest against the wind not with it.

[BillyB]

Does your wife and MIL view America as extremely morally degenerate weaklings?

They understand not everybody voted for and thinks like Obama.

Kites fly highest against the wind not with it.

Talk like that doesn't work when there's real issues to address. We have Ukrainian soldiers losing faith in their leadership and think it's best to point guns at Kiev instead of Russia. We have citizens losing faith in the cowards of the West and in their leadership to secure an arms deal. If you were President of Ukraine or a military general, you will give motivational speeches like that when moral falls? People want action from their leaders, not words that motivate people and soldiers to run into a slaughter.

[lordtiberius]

Avoid talking to cancer patients Billy.  People may see you as annoying. 


PS. A dictionary is a good resource for correcting one's spelling BTW

[JayH]

This may also be a reason Germany doesn't want to arm Ukraine -


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

It adds to the point of the contempt Putin has for the west--it is only about the price of what is needed to be paid to get what he wants.

[JayH]

Diplomacy can only ever work if both parties are seeking a solution.
Putin thinks he has the upper hand-- so his only purpose in talking is to pay lip service to the west.
Give the Ukrainians the weapons to defend themselves--to remove the Russians out of Ukraine-- then Huilo will be pleading to talk--then I would treat him in exactly the same way has he has behaved!!
This wheel can turn--it just needs to be made clear to Russia that it is on a hiding to nothing.The biggest problem Russia will face is that Huilo & cronies will put their personal self interest  above everything else.


US General gave effective advice Ukrainian how to get the enemy to negotiate



Ukrainian army of the enemy to inflict maximum losses  in order to force the enemy to negotiate. Such an opinion in an interview with TSN Natalka expressed Songs former commander of NATO forces in Kosovo, US Army General Wesley Clark, retired. He believes that the Ukrainian experience of warfare in the last hundred years ahead of the experience of other countries, for sure - if not most European countries. "Ukraine is paying a very high price and it is - a real and huge tragedy - what is happening today. And we know that Russia is guilty. But the main and basic principle of how to win the war - not Beat not act, but here You do not have much choice. The second principle - use diplomacy and attempt to resolve all negotiated in order to get things done and get all the least losses "- said the US military.

 http://tsn.ua/svit/amerikanskiy-general-dav-diyevi-poradi-ukrayincyam-yak-zmusiti-voroga-yti-na-peregovori-407969.html

[lordtiberius]

I told you not to trust American generals and what do you do?  You cite an American general as evidence.  There is no diplomatic solution Jay. 

[AkMike]

   Read it again LT... You missed the key words.


US General gave effective advice Ukrainian how to get the enemy to negotiate



But the main and basic principle of how to win the war - not Beat not act, but here You do not have much choice.

[sleepycat]

One of stereotypes you sincerely believe in. Relations with China is much more important in economic sense. 

You mean being in a vassal state relationship with China?
Seriously, do you actually think that China will consider Russia as equals in an alliance?
Isn't it humiliating to the Russian pride to be a junior partner to the much more powerful China?