The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine

[Muzh]

I don't think that is his plan.

For the time being. Let's see if we call his bluff. 

[lordtiberius]

It is fine if you believe that....but I don't!  If you are proven correct and Russia invades other countries then I will be incorrect, and we can have our war at that point...it won't hurt to wait.   I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution when it comes to the type of confrontation this will entail. 


Fathertime!

According to FT, Russia has not invaded Ukraine.  What do you make of that?

[fathertime]

According to FT, Russia has not invaded Ukraine.  What do you make of that?

You are misstating now.


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

....taken all of Ukraine if he wanted to....in my opinion, Obama is spot on and playing the cards he has very well!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-putin-really-wanted-ukraine-201600345.html




Obama: If Putin Really Wanted Ukraine, He Could Take It

[lordtiberius]

You are misstating now.


Fathertime!

So The Russian Army has invaded Ukraine?  Why are they justified in their aggression?

[Boethius]

....taken all of Ukraine if he wanted to....in my opinion, Obama is spot on and playing the cards he has very well!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-putin-really-wanted-ukraine-201600345.html




Obama: If Putin Really Wanted Ukraine, He Could Take It

Everyone here knows that.  The point is, occupying a country is easy.  Maintaining the occupation is not.  Plus, I don't think that is Russia's goal.  They want to control Ukraine without the cost of maintaining it.

[lordtiberius]

Maintaining an occupation is very difficult.  Ask NATO and the US Army

[JayH]

I don't think that is his plan.

How about "control" Ukraine?
Russia still believes it  can-- and if that means invading large tracts of Ukraine they are still misguided enough to think enough pressure will see Ukrainians capitulate-it will not happen,

[BillyB]

No Ukrainian life is worth that territory, or the bandits who are the "separtist" leaders.

We might as well start moving all Ukrainians out of Ukraine to save their lives. Putin wants all Ukraine. America faced mighty USSR everywhere they went and we weren't as paranoid about escalation so why should we be afraid of a lesser Russia? It may surprise some people but Putin is more afraid of what we can do to him, if we man up, than we are afraid of what he can do to us. While we're afraid of a major war and Ukrainians dying, he's afraid of losing Russia. He doesn't want to go down in history as the man who lost Russia.


Looking back, I see some people changing their minds now. When the bullets start flying and people start dying, that can happen. Most Ukrainians want to fight to get out from under Russia's influence so let them take their best shot at it. America got their shot at freedom and if the French had the same attitude to not arm us because they didn't want to see us die, we wouldn't be here talking right now.


If America and EU doesn't help Ukraine and willing to give a piece or all of it up, countries such as China will become more dangerous. There are a lot of bad actors around the world watching how this scenario will play out that affects how they will conduct their policies and goals so they are rootin for Putin. If Putin can do it and come away with a prize, they may take their chances too knowing the West will give them a piece or all of the land they want.

[lordtiberius]

The Russian army will take Debalstavo

[lordtiberius]

BTW, Billy B, trade between Sino-Russian border down 34%

[fathertime]

Everyone here knows that.  The point is, occupying a country is easy.  Maintaining the occupation is not.  Plus, I don't think that is Russia's goal.  They want to control Ukraine without the cost of maintaining it.

I've read numerous people state otherwise here so not everybody here agrees with Obama.


Fathertime!

[Gator]

The point is, occupying a country is easy.  Maintaining the occupation is not.  Plus, I don't think that is Russia's goal.  They want to control Ukraine without the cost of maintaining it.

I believe Putin wants Ukraine's economy to become such shambles that they are unable to buy gas,   compelling Ukrainians to beg Putin to rescue them.   The abused wife crawling back.  Surely the West would never let that happen. 

[AC]

LIke many, I don't believe Russia really cares about the Eastern regions (out of altruism)...but they sure don't want NATO or an unfriendly neighbor right up on them,...That is what I was referring to...but yes I can see your confusion.  In addition, I can't say for certain I'm correct, so maybe you all will wind up right and Russia will take all of Ukraine...but I'm saying that isn't likely. 

I don't think anybody is still saying that Putin wants to take all of Ukraine in a military way.  In the first place he was perfectly happy controlling Ukraine and robbing from the Ukrainian people with his stooge Yanukovych in power.  Now that his stooge is gone, he hopes to do this:

No.  Russia is not interested in an all out war with Ukraine.  It wants a war the scale of which is occurring now, because it will bankrupt Ukraine, and achieve Russia's goal (which is to bankrupt Ukraine).  Russia does not want the economic responsibility of 44 million Ukrainians.  It just doesn't want them to have a better life.

[AC]

I believe Putin wants Ukraine's economy to become such shambles that they are unable to buy gas,   compelling Ukrainians to beg Putin to rescue them.   The abused wife crawling back.  Surely the West would never let that happen.

That sums it up very well.  Just like some men think they own a woman, Russia thinks they own Ukraine and that they have a right to mistreat them.

[BillyB]

I believe Putin wants Ukraine's economy to become such shambles that they are unable to buy gas,   compelling Ukrainians to beg Putin to rescue them.

I think Putin gets pleasure watching the West throw away their money to improve Ukraine's economy, an economy he will someday inherit. Putin will recuperate all costs to his damaged economy if he agrees to a diplomatic solution. If Obama can give 11.9 billion to Iran to lure them to the negotiation table without even an agreement to settle, Putin knows he can get much more from the West.


Show me the money

[mendeleyev]

As I wrote in the MendeleyevJournal yesterday, the Kremlin does not accept the breakup of the Soviet Union was permanent. That is not an opinion, that is according to a prominent Russian University professor who wrote in a Kremlin-owned and Kremlin-controlled publication.

He argues that since there was no Yalta agreement as in WWII, the post COLD WAR boundaries were never really settled, and thus are still up for debate.

Again, that is not opinion, it is how the hawks in the Kremlin think. I can verify this is the case, as well as citing the source I published yesterday.

[mendeleyev]

FT, regarding your man Mearsheimer:

In the 1993 Foreign Affairs article "The case for a Ukrainian nuclear deterrent",^[16] he argued that to reduce the dangers of war, the United States should encourage Germany and Ukraine to develop a nuclear arsenal, while working to prevent the rise of hyper-nationalism. Mearsheimer presented several possible scenarios for a post-Cold-War Europe from which American and Russian forces had departed. He believed that a Europe with nuclear proliferation was most likely to remain at peace, because without a nuclear deterrent Germany would be likely to once more try to conquer the continent (See pages 32–33).^[14] Mearsheimer argued that it would be strategically unwise for Ukraine to surrender its nuclear arsenal (remnants of the Soviet stockpile)

Source: wikipedia.

[lordtiberius]

FT, regarding your man Mearsheimer:

Source: wikipedia.

You really want to understand this man, google his views on Israel.

[Doll]

As I wrote in the MendeleyevJournal yesterday, the Kremlin does not accept the breakup of the Soviet Union was permanent. That is not an opinion, that is according to a prominent Russian University professor who wrote in a Kremlin-owned and Kremlin-controlled publication.

He argues that since there was no Yalta agreement as in WWII, the post COLD WAR boundaries were never really settled, and thus are still up for debate.

Again, that is not opinion, it is how the hawks in the Kremlin think. I can verify this is the case, as well as citing the source I published yesterday.

It is a BS opinion.
After 24 years to not accept the breakup of the Soviet Union when 3 "republics" are in NATO, Ukraine is smashed (not by Russia) and East is Islamic?
Mendy, please , не вешайте лапшу на уши хотя бы "нашим" читателям. Ну это шизофренический бред для благодарных заморских ушей хахахааааааааа

[lordtiberius]

It is a BS opinion.
After 24 years to not accept the breakup of the Soviet Union when 3 "republics" are in NATO, Ukraine is smashed (not by Russia) and East is Islamic?
Mendy, please , не вешайте лапшу на уши хотя бы "нашим" читателям. Ну это шизофренический бред для благодарных заморских ушей хахахааааааааа

Putin stole this from Alexander Dugin.

[sleepycat]

It is a BS opinion.

And that Putinist turd you spew out day after day isn't BS?
 

[Doll]

CNN calls Ukrainian government forces warring in Donbas ‘pro-US troops’
The ticker line saying "Obama considers arming pro-US troops" was kept on the screen for several minutes during a newscast devoted to Obama’s meeting with German Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel
NEW YORK, February 10. /TASS/. CNN on Monday labeled the Ukrainian forces conducting the armed operation in the south-east of the country as the "pro-US troops".

The ticker line saying "Obama considers arming pro-US troops" was kept on the screen for several minutes during a newscast devoted to Obama’s meeting with German Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Participants in the news show discussed, among other things, whether or not Washington should furnish the pro-Kiev forces in Ukraine with lethal weapons.
The editors’ blunder was immediately noticed by audiences who started sharing the screenshot in social networks. Some comments referred to it as a "Freudian slip".

Obama said at a joint news conference with Merkel earlier in the day he hoped the crisis in Ukraine would be settled diplomatically and the situation would not go as far as supplies of arms.

He confirmed along with it he had instructed his aides to scrutinize a possibility of such supplies to Ukraine if the diplomatic efforts flopped.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;topic=18875.200;last_msg=393364

[Doll]

Putin stole this from Alexander Dugin.

Stole what? HAHAAAAAAAAAAA

[Doll]

Biden to Putin: Get out of Ukraine

Meanwhile