Is it usual for Ukrainian Women to be inaffectionate when starting relationship?

[fathertime]

All these obstacles of meeting, falling in love with and ultimately marrying a woman with a child. (face in hands) I mean I ask myself, is all of this trouble worth it? Or should I just stick with the wonderful Belarussian women I have met who do not have a child, but badly want a child because their biological clock is ticking? 

It really is an individual choice.  I made efforts to correspond with ladies without children, but some ladies with children were so attractive and interested that I just couldn't resist.  But mostly it was ladies without children that I spent more time with, and eventually married.  I didn't want all the potential hassles regarding immigration, nor at the time did I want to raise a child that wasn't mine. Others at different stages of life feel differently.




Fathertime! 

[Gator]

I am probably completely finished searching in the pool of Belarussian women with young Children. I hope Olya and I will have a happy ending. These Belarussian women, for some weird reason, do not grasp the concept that Fathers have rights too. It's not all about the Mothers.

You say this today, yet yesterday you were head over heels about Olya, dreaming of marriage  Legal custody of children is just one of many thorny issues in marrying a FSUW.  Do you now understand why many experienced men at RWD are advising you to slow down!  Particularly, know your woman before making major decisions. 

If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

In approaching the father, Olya would tell him she wants sole custody because the government will pay her some money each month (small amount of money).   Also, granting Olya sole custody would eliminate his responsibility for support.

My ex-wife from Moscow filed for sole-custody ten years ago.  The process cost about $1000 in attorney fees and took almost a year.  The long time was necessary because the husband had been missing for years (presumably murdered and buried in the forest), so the government had to first conduct a search for him.   

There are other options.  An RWD Hero Member named Vaughn married a woman with a young child whose father still maintained close contact.  Vaugh met with the father and convinced him of the better life he would give to the child.  The father agreed and did not ask for money.  Many of these FSU men are good people contrary to what some ex-wives may tell you. 

You mentioned Olya becoming furious when you asked her about the father.  I personally would be cautious if a woman told me nothing but horrible stories about her ex-husband.  There are two sides to every coin.  If the man was so bad, why did she marry him?  Surely the man had some good traits. 

[jone]

You say this today, yet yesterday you were head over heels about Olya, dreaming of marriage  Legal custody of children is just one of many thorny issues in marrying a FSUW.  Do you now understand why many experienced men at RWD are advising you to slow down!  Particularly, know your woman before making major decisions. 

If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

In approaching the father, Olya would tell him she wants sole custody because the government will pay her some money each month (small amount of money).   Also, granting Olya sole custody would eliminate his responsibility for support.

My ex-wife from Moscow filed for sole-custody ten years ago.  The process cost about $1000 in attorney fees and took almost a year.  The long time was necessary because the husband had been missing for years (presumably murdered and buried in the forest), so the government had to first conduct a search for him.   

There are other options.  An RWD Hero Member named Vaughn married a woman with a young child whose father still maintained close contact.  Vaugh met with the father and convinced him of the better life he would give to the child.  The father agreed and did not ask for money.  Many of these FSU men are good people contrary to what some ex-wives may tell you. 

You mentioned Olya becoming furious when you asked her about the father.  I personally would be cautious if a woman told me nothing but horrible stories about her ex-husband.  There are two sides to every coin.  If the man was so bad, why did she marry him?  Surely the man had some good traits.

Oh, that must mean, because this is in Russia, that he died of natural causes. 

[treadmilldude]

You say this today, yet yesterday you were head over heels about Olya, dreaming of marriage  Legal custody of children is just one of many thorny issues in marrying a FSUW.  Do you now understand why many experienced men at RWD are advising you to slow down!  Particularly, know your woman before making major decisions. 

If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

In approaching the father, Olya would tell him she wants sole custody because the government will pay her some money each month (small amount of money).   Also, granting Olya sole custody would eliminate his responsibility for support.

My ex-wife from Moscow filed for sole-custody ten years ago.  The process cost about $1000 in attorney fees and took almost a year.  The long time was necessary because the husband had been missing for years (presumably murdered and buried in the forest), so the government had to first conduct a search for him.   

There are other options.  An RWD Hero Member named Vaughn married a woman with a young child whose father still maintained close contact.  Vaugh met with the father and convinced him of the better life he would give to the child.  The father agreed and did not ask for money.  Many of these FSU men are good people contrary to what some ex-wives may tell you. 

You mentioned Olya becoming furious when you asked her about the father.  I personally would be cautious if a woman told me nothing but horrible stories about her ex-husband.  There are two sides to every coin.  If the man was so bad, why did she marry him?  Surely the man had some good traits.

Gator, I am still very fond of Olya. Who said I wasn't. You forget I am corresponding with a crapload of Olya's. There are so many Olya's I get them mixed up myself.  I think there is an unwritten law in Belarus says that if you are in your 30's, have a child, and are hot, and like a guy on Russian Women Discussion your name has to be Olya.  Today, on VK, she has logged in 5 separate times and written me 5 little sweet love notes saying things like "Kiss you".."I miss you"..."Would love to hold you in my arms tonight"..."Veronica and I both are thinking of you"....just simple, yet sweet little notes to let me know she cares and likes me and appreciates me for being a sweet Man. As long as the Dad is not actively involved in Veronica's life, I am OK with Olya and we'll definitely meet soon. If he is actively involved in Veronica's life, then as I have already said, I am an honorable man and I will not keep that little girl from seeing her Biological dad. I will have to say goodbye to this Olya as well and I don't think she is gonna take it well because I can tell she has real hatred for her ex. 

You obviously are getting all of the many Olyas mixed up Gator. Don't worry, I am always getting all of the Olyas mixes up myself, there are just too many Olyas in Belarus. There needs to be some Beyonces, Taylor Swifts, Shakiras in Belarus, would make remembering names so much easier.

""If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

In approaching the father, Olya would tell him she wants sole custody because the government will pay her some money each month (small amount of money).   Also, granting Olya sole custody would eliminate his responsibility for support."" This is top-of-the-line advice Gator. I will relate this word for word to her and she'll agree it is great advice. How do you know all of these tricks and techniques Gator? I never would have even thought of doing that, but it is pure genius. Years of being a member here on RWD, Gator? You have more great advice than any other member of RWD, Gator.

Actually, she got furious, tightened up in a little ball and said she did not want to talk about him (the ex). So she did not tell me anything bad specifically he had done. It was just a "look" of anger and disgust on her face, but no words telling me why specifically she had such contempt for him, simply that she did not want to talk about him. There are no pictures of the child's Dad on her VK page, but that might be understandable considering the animosity that I believe does exist between the two.

I am getting old Gator. My best years are behind me. I do not have enough time in my life to be extremely picky. Sure, I want to pick a great woman so divorce is not in the cards later on. But you mention a couple times if she is my "dream woman"...I don't care if she is my dream woman, she doesn't even have to be my dream woman, I am 37 and tired of being alone. Tired of not having a wife and children. How picky can I actually afford to be at the geriatric age of 37, right? As long as she is loving and kind and faithful and we have great chemistry, that is probably good enough for me. She does not have to be my dream woman.   

What happened to RWD member Vaughn is an amazing tale. Yes, there obviously are some excellent FSU Men, not all are bad. I can only hope that if things come to that, I will be lucky enough to have Olya's ex be that great of a guy.

She checks on me all day long, logs into VK all day long (even though, she, her Mom and Dad are all Engineers and have good jobs) and wants to see how I am, and if I am online on VK, will talk to me for a couple of minutes before concluding with something super sweet like "Kiss you, I miss you so much". 

Thanks Gator for the best advice I have probably ever received on RWD. Shhhh, do not tell Fathertime! this secret I am about to tell you, but I think you give even better advice than him!   

[Trenchcoat]

I'll reply more when I have time, but it was her daughter's Bday two days ago and the father never even called. I'm going to have a serious talk about this when I visit her next month. It sounds like she needs to start documenting his absence in his daughter's life and then move to have sole custody of her (if she doesn't already).

This will be a discussion to have in person with her and not on Skype. I'll be back soon. Thanks for the useful info everyone.

Treadmill, I mean no disrespect but seriously take a chill pill and get on the damn airplane. Do you have a trip date in mind? The reason I ask is that I know from experience that spending even a single week in the FSU will greatly affect the preconceptions that you have about the place and the women. Seriously amigo. GO! You owe it to yourself.

Guppy Captain, Is this as a result of your recent 10 day stay with Mordinson? - a girl you connected with.

Several months back I was communicating with a girl who had a son, but too much of a potential can of worms for me. I decided to not reply after she moved from talking about interests/area to more personal finance matters of mine. She may have not been dodgy but I decided at that point that there are enough potential concerns with a single lady without kids never mind one with one/some (don't know about the father situation never got round to asking her). So after that decided to ruthlessly stick to lady's without children since there are many out there so no need to add that factor to the melting pot.

Paying to raise someone else's kid is not something that appeals a great deal to me, I can be somewhat open minded but the risk that the lady with pre existing child might be using you is often too great in my book. Plus you have the economic burden and otherwise thoughts off the child from the get go who is not your child. Sure, with the right lady and child that takes to you it can work but I see it as setting yourself up for a problematic future situation in the long run. I don't know what happens in the US in a divorce if its seen that a guy has taken on another guys child from another country if he is then hauled over the coals for support, etc. Also without your own child with the lady there is a danger her instinctive loyalty will not extend to you along the way - dependent on lady of course. May not be a bad thing of course just my thoughts on the subject as they came to be.

[Steamer]

You say this today, yet yesterday you were head over heels about Olya, dreaming of marriage  Legal custody of children is just one of many thorny issues in marrying a FSUW.  Do you now understand why many experienced men at RWD are advising you to slow down!  Particularly, know your woman before making major decisions. 

If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

TMD
Listen to what's being told to you. Do not panic. Your eyes are being opened to the many aspects of a relationship with an FSU woman. We have ALL gone through a version of this same story. That is why we communicate on this board about our different problems because they are not so different and we can learn our way around things.


The fathers permission is just one of MANY such small troubles. I've found that sometimes the best course of action is to let the woman take care of these things. I know stories of guys that HAD to take charge and talk to the ex. The ex had no idea that the woman was planning on going to the US but then decided he had found a major sucker that needed to be fleeced. Trouble ensued. The benefits of an FSU marriage are great but you need to listen to ALL the stories here and pull the facts that are relevant to YOU.


 My Story: My wife knew she wanted to bug out of Russia with her then 13 yr old son. She was well aware of the need for her ex's signature on the permission papers. She began with proving that he had abandoned them using past support (5 dollars a month) as a hammer to get permission for a foreign passport for the son. Then she met my marvelous self and decided to pull the trigger on leaving. That work was done before I arrived.


Then you haven't even begun on the US side of things. I still get a twitch in my forehead every time I think about the INS.


It's all workable. The important thing is Is she right for you? She will do HER part; will you do yours? This takes commitment. Don't go into this half-assed. You could screw up a families life if you're just a fork up.

[fathertime]

Gator, I am still very fond of Olya. Who said I wasn't. You forget I am corresponding with a crapload of Olya's. There are so many Olya's I get them mixed up myself.  I think there is an unwritten law in Belarus says that if you are in your 30's, have a child, and are hot, and like a guy on Russian Women Discussion your name has to be Olya.  Today, on VK, she has logged in 5 separate times and written me 5 little sweet love notes saying things like "Kiss you".."I miss you"..."Would love to hold you in my arms tonight"..."Veronica and I both are thinking of you"....just simple, yet sweet little notes to let me know she cares and likes me and appreciates me for being a sweet Man. As long as the Dad is not actively involved in Veronica's life, I am OK with Olya and we'll definitely meet soon. If he is actively involved in Veronica's life, then as I have already said, I am an honorable man and I will not keep that little girl from seeing her Biological dad. I will have to say goodbye to this Olya as well and I don't think she is gonna take it well because I can tell she has real hatred for her ex. 

You obviously are getting all of the many Olyas mixed up Gator. Don't worry, I am always getting all of the Olyas mixes up myself, there are just too many Olyas in Belarus. There needs to be some Beyonces, Taylor Swifts, Shakiras in Belarus, would make remembering names so much easier.

""If Olya proves to be your dream woman after you spent some time with her, I recommend that she approach the biological father about gaining SOLE CUSTODY and NOT asking him for permission to emigrate.  I suggest this track because the father may become jealous if he learns Olya has plans to move to America.   Sole custody would be awarded by a Belarussian court.  If she has sole custody, the father's permission is not necessary.

In approaching the father, Olya would tell him she wants sole custody because the government will pay her some money each month (small amount of money).   Also, granting Olya sole custody would eliminate his responsibility for support."" This is top-of-the-line advice Gator. I will relate this word for word to her and she'll agree it is great advice. How do you know all of these tricks and techniques Gator? I never would have even thought of doing that, but it is pure genius. Years of being a member here on RWD, Gator? You have more great advice than any other member of RWD, Gator.

Actually, she got furious, tightened up in a little ball and said she did not want to talk about him (the ex). So she did not tell me anything bad specifically he had done. It was just a "look" of anger and disgust on her face, but no words telling me why specifically she had such contempt for him, simply that she did not want to talk about him. There are no pictures of the child's Dad on her VK page, but that might be understandable considering the animosity that I believe does exist between the two.

I am getting old Gator. My best years are behind me. I do not have enough time in my life to be extremely picky. Sure, I want to pick a great woman so divorce is not in the cards later on. But you mention a couple times if she is my "dream woman"...I don't care if she is my dream woman, she doesn't even have to be my dream woman, I am 37 and tired of being alone. Tired of not having a wife and children. How picky can I actually afford to be at the geriatric age of 37, right? As long as she is loving and kind and faithful and we have great chemistry, that is probably good enough for me. She does not have to be my dream woman.   

What happened to RWD member Vaughn is an amazing tale. Yes, there obviously are some excellent FSU Men, not all are bad. I can only hope that if things come to that, I will be lucky enough to have Olya's ex be that great of a guy.

She checks on me all day long, logs into VK all day long (even though, she, her Mom and Dad are all Engineers and have good jobs) and wants to see how I am, and if I am online on VK, will talk to me for a couple of minutes before concluding with something super sweet like "Kiss you, I miss you so much". 

Thanks Gator for the best advice I have probably ever received on RWD. Shhhh, do not tell Fathertime! this secret I am about to tell you, but I think you give even better advice than him!   

That's it treadmilldude, you are dead!!   But seriously, use (and ignore) whatever advice works for your situation. 


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

How do you know all of these tricks and techniques Gator?

Because I am older than dirt.  And I have been traveling through the FSU, meeting FSUW, and reading RWD (and a defunct  predecessor) for 14 years. 

You have more great advice than any other member of RWD, Gator.

Actually, I don't.  And I have made mistakes too, big mistakes. 

You say this only because I had some experience with your immediate concern.   Quite possibly my suggested path may prove to be inappropriate after you know more about the situation.  And tomorrow you will have a different concern.

Let me make this perfectly clear:  The COLLECTIVE wisdom of RWD will be your best guide.  Only you know Olya, so you need to synthesize all the advice from everyone and apply it to your goals, your situation.  For example, Steamer just gave you some good advice.  Specifically,  ask Olya if her daughter has a passport.  If she asks why.  Say the three of may want to travel. 

Do not worry about getting the father's permission now.  First decide during your visit if Olya is as good as you feel about her now. 

    ...."Kiss you".."I miss you"..."Would love to hold you in my arms tonight"..."

This woman is passionate and she will want sex.  Please take the initiative.  Do not disappoint her by sitting on your hands.  I predict the second day, and it will be mind blowing. 

BTW, where do you plan to stay?  Have you looked at apartments in her city? 

[ML]

TMD and others,
Reading this thread has made me even more aware of why I was not looking for FSU women in their 30's with children at home.  I kinda thought some of these bigger issues might get in the way, and that is why I was looking for 40-50 yr old FSU women because many of these have older children that do not live at home.  These are all valid concerns that must be addressed before a guy gets too deeply involved with an FSU woman.  Going forward these issues could make for a bumpy road ahead.

Very wise choice.

[ML]

Went to restaurant tonight with Ochka before going on to Band Concert.  Brought up this topic and some of the discussion.

Ochka told me of story told to her by a Russian gal from her Intensive English Program during her first year here.

The gal had two children, and married an American, and got herself and them to USA.

She said that she had gone with children from Russia to Belarus where they could freely travel without even an International Passport.  Then left Belarus without having to show any permission slip from children's father, since Belarus cared nothing about Russians leaving.

Sounded like a perfect plan . . . until we started discussing it, and wondering how she got Visa to go to USA with children; since doesn't USA require some sort of documentation showing father of children agree to let them leave?

[alex330]

Several of the Russian women we know took the children to Disney World here in the US for a quick vacation and just missed the return flight. Cold but effective.

[2tallbill]

I am getting old Gator. My best years are behind me. I do not have enough time in my life to be extremely picky. Sure, I want to pick a great woman so divorce is not in the cards later on. But you mention a couple times if she is my "dream woman"...I don't care if she is my dream woman, she doesn't even have to be my dream woman, I am 37 and tired of being alone. Tired of not having a wife and children. How picky can I actually afford to be at the geriatric age of 37, right? As long as she is loving and kind and faithful and we have great chemistry, that is probably good enough for me. She does not have to be my dream woman.   

I write my comments for everyone to read not just for you and your situation. I don't
know you or your situation very well at all. Having said that.............

The older you get the pickier you should be, theory being you aren't still young enough
to screw it all up. You need to find your dream woman. You don't have to find a super
model, but you have to find an excellent woman. Don't settle for a woman who isn't
excellent for you. If you settle on anything make sure it's a physical thing, like her nose
is a bit funny or something like that. Don't settle for a girl who doesn't like to laugh or
a girl who doesn't care for you as much as you care for her. Don't settle on character.

Get to know the girl, really get to know her. Meet her several times and make sure
she is a GREAT girl for you.

That's my two kopecks,

Bill

[BillyB]

Sounded like a perfect plan . . . until we started discussing it, and wondering how she got Visa to go to USA with children; since doesn't USA require some sort of documentation showing father of children agree to let them leave?

Our border patrol may ask for the other parents permission or may not but when a child is issued a passport for international travel, it needs both parents signature unless one parent is deceased or one parent has sole custody. We know the father of a child has to give permission for the child to leave the country but to who needs to look at this permission? Our consulate or the country's department that issues passports? Maybe both?

http://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/268/~/children---child-traveling-with-one-parent-or-someone-who-is-not-a-parent-or

Several of the Russian women we know took the children to Disney World here in the US for a quick vacation and just missed the return flight. Cold but effective.

Mothers abducting their own children! What rights do they have to do this?

[alex330]

Mothers abducting their own children! What rights do they have to do this?

The reality is that men have very few rights when it comes to children.

[cc3]

What is the legal age of a kid in Ukraine because several of the women I am talking to have kids that are 19 yrs old and 20 yrs old.  The women say that these older kids are living on their own.  I would not want to get into a bad position regarding the woman's kids even if they are over 18 years old.  Has anyone experienced any of these issues?

Eighteen is the age of adulthood and 'emancipation' in Ukraine. My 18 year old stepdaughter just received her adult international passport and will be free to travel without father's consent whenever she chooses (or her mom and I choose).

[GoodOlBoy]

What if your PPO health plan, like mine  .....has a $2,500 deductible, then a 20% copay after that for a hospital visit (including maternity visit)...I would probably end up spending right at $5,000, ......

PPO?
This sounds more like Obozocare .... the "bronze" plan maybe? 

[GoodOlBoy]

I was recently told that the going rate is $10,000 now. This person would know and has a lot of experience witnessing this play out in AM/FSUW relationships. 10K?! Are you ^*#+ing kidding me?! 

Yeah, I'm sure the "hostage payment" is a lot more now than 11 years ago.... cost of living, etc.

[lyndontom]

TMD,

I like you based on what I've read and I know you appreciate everyone's advice. I don't profess to know anywhere near some of the experienced guys here and I don't mean this to seem overly negative towards you. But, in the last few weeks, you've written off Ukranian women as scammers in favour of ladies from Belarus, you've hypothetically married then divorced women in your own mind, ruled in and then ruled out women with children and gone through an imaginary long legal process in, all before you've even visited FSU. Don't put the cart before the horse.

I agree with Bill in that as we get older our window gets smaller and we have to adjust our expectations. However, you're 37, not 67. I think you still have enough time to make sure you get things right the first time and don't have to just "settle" for someone that isn't compatible, or compromise on too many of the criteria you're searching for. But, like Bill said, you probably don't have enough time to get it wrong and start all over again either.

I dated a few women with children in Ukraine and whilst it wasn't something I was looking for (I don't have any children of my own yet either) I wouldn't let it preclude me from meeting a potentially good woman. One lady was working three jobs and bringing up a young daughter and I did not think on a practical level it would work, as she had little free time to meet me whilst I was in Ukraine. She was the lady I was probably attracted to most of all the ones I have met, but I knew it was unlikely to work. I met another lady who speaks good English, had a good job and also had a young daughter. I felt it could work, but I didn't feel any real connection with her and eventually she withdrew from the process (for want of a better expression) I think primarily because she knew I was going on dates with other ladies concurrently.

You will need to go and meet some of these ladies to form an opinion first before you can even start to think about some of the issues and practicalities that will come with the lady you find depending on her country of origin, languages, family situation, etc. Whilst I think you need to have some realistic criteria/expectations in mind, don't rule someone in or out based on fantasy that may or may not come to fruition. You may miss out on a gem if you're not prepared to compromise a little.

If you're stuck on Belarus now, then go. Everything is contingent on you getting on a plane and travelling to FSU because otherwise, you may as well be having computer relationships with women from Timbuktu. I know its easy for me to say as from the UK its economical and practical to even have a long weekend in Kiev or Odessa, but at some stage to get anywhere in this process you'll have to bite the bullet.

[lyndontom]

You don't know if your lady will ever become affectionate to you as much as you'd like. You do know she's not affectionate. You can risk your next vacation and money to visit this woman again. Don't be upset if she remains the same since the risk is all yours.

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on limiting things to X number of dates to reach a certain level of affection with anyone. All women are different, at least in my limited experience. Some guys will say that when a FSU woman likes you that you will know it, and for the most part I agree. But I've also had some experiences where the lady takes some time to feel comfortable, has been hurt in the past and if you're on a WMVM as I have been will be naturally quite cautious. What I've learnt though is that at some stage you will have to bite the bullet and make a move on her to test the water.


I do agree with Billy though, everything is your risk on whether you continue to invest time into a woman that may be a lost cause or may be a diamond ready to be unlocked. You'll have to use your own intuition and make a decision at some stage whether its sooner or later. The problem is you're unlikely to really ever scientifically know whether you made the right decision in sticking or twisting and at what point to make the choice.

[Trenchcoat]

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on limiting things to X number of dates to reach a certain level of affection with anyone. All women are different, at least in my limited experience. Some guys will say that when a FSU woman likes you that you will know it, and for the most part I agree. But I've also had some experiences where the lady takes some time to feel comfortable, has been hurt in the past and if you're on a WMVM as I have been will be naturally quite cautious. What I've learnt though is that at some stage you will have to bite the bullet and make a move on her to test the water.


I do agree with Billy though, everything is your risk on whether you continue to invest time into a woman that may be a lost cause or may be a diamond ready to be unlocked. You'll have to use your own intuition and make a decision at some stage whether its sooner or later. The problem is you're unlikely to really ever scientifically know whether you made the right decision in sticking or twisting and at what point to make the choice.

Thanks for the advice it helps - I think you are both right, it good to know you have also come across this cautious woman situation lyndon, shes basically said as much that shes the cautious type. I think shes worth it to continue with further. I get a lot of other indicators as gone into above that she's into me, if I didn't then I would be a lot more concerned and have to face up to the reality of such a situation. I know she's highly likely to be the same again on another visit but shes get company anyway and we get on perfectly I think (hopefully she does too, lol) I think as we share more personal info perhaps that maybe we might start to trust/get closer so this might help. Like I said there seemed to be much warmth, just not physical. I think if I can enjoy another location with her, and its cheap out there from the UK then regardless it will not be a negative. The main thing that threw me was that I was getting mixed signals and I guess I didn't know where I was or what the signals even meant  but now you guys have enlightened me a lot I think it is a lot easier for me to deal with. 

[treadmilldude]

I like Olya ssssooooo much. I also like little Veronica ssssoooo much. I have been so complimentary to her, I have told her over and over again how beautiful and sexy I think she is (and she really is beautiful, she might be 33, but she is one of the hottest, skinniest 33 year-olds I have ever met. There is no way she even looks 33, more like 25 or 26). I have never given her any reason to think she is "not good enough for me" and that I might be looking for a better-looking Belarussian girl. I am not looking for a better-looking girl! She is plenty good enough for me! (She is everything I could ever want in a sexual partner for a Wife. I have firmly decided I will not make the first move in terms of sex on my first 24 day trip to Belarus - you guys already know that. I like this woman way too much to risk screwing things up with sex that is premature) In fact, I worry I might not be good enough for her, and I have told her a couple times I am worried I might not be handsome enough for her.

Then I get this message from her on VK about 5 hours ago....

"I showed my Sister your pictures for the first time. Her eyes got big as airplanes. She warned me I might be making a mistake being married to a young man that looks like you. My Sister has never been with a man that looks like you, she has only been with normal looking men. And she warned me that I have also never been with a man that looks like you. My Sister is right, I have never been with a man that looks like you, and I am always worried that I might not be pretty enough for you. When we meet, I am very worried I might not be sexy enough for you, you might be very disappointed in me, but you already know I worry about this as I have told you this a few times.

But I know you are a kind man. You are so good to me and kind to me. You tell me many times that I am beautiful, that my Daughter is beautiful, and I believe you when you tell me I am beautiful. I hope I am pretty enough for you. I am worried I am not. I hope you are not disappointed in me when we meet, and choose some other younger woman in her 20’s from Belarus.

Just today, just for you, I went to my local fitness center and started a gym membership just for you. You tell me that you love my figure, that you love that I am very thin and skinny. You love my skinny arms and legs and stomach (smile). But I know that many young girls on Mamba contact you, I have read their comments on your photos in Mamba, and they are prettier, sexier than me. I want to look very feminine for you so I go to the gym just for you. You say you will not ask me to have sex with you during your trip because you want love and marriage, you adore Veronica, you do not want sex with me but marriage. But, I worry about my own actions and my own desires. I worry I might not be able to stop myself from asking you to make love to me."

And that was the end of her VK message to me.  This breaks my heart. This girl is not thinking clearly, I have told her so many times how pretty she is. I told her if I could change one thing about her appearance, I would change absolutely nothing, she is perfect to me in every way. And yet she constantly worries that she is not good enough for me?  I mean I have exactly the same worries - I worry I am not good enough for her, because she is really really really attractive, especially considering she is 33 and has a 7 year-old child. I do not know of many, IF ANY, 33 year-old Mothers in the US that are as skinny and attractive as Olya. I should be the one worrying whether or not I am good enough for her, not the other way around!  I just don't understand why women think the way they do.

[mhr7]

Why is it such a bad thing that she wants to improve herself in order to be the best woman for you? Or that she is afraid of the competition? Take it as a compliment.

[Gator]

treadmill, you should worry about only one issue - she may think you too weird. 


You said you like my advice.  Here's my advice for the day:  Tell Olya again you do not want to have sex with her, but say you will have sex with her sister to prove that you are normal.   Explain this will eliminate any concern Olya may have that something is wrong with you. 

Seriously, I can't believe you are communicating with women and telling them well before your trip is even planned that you will not have sex.   Evidently this ploy is working as Olya is very excited about meeting you.

Warning:  be careful with the information you reveal on the Internet. 

[BillyB]

treadmill, you should worry about only one issue - she may think you too weird. 

After the VK message treadmilldude got, I'm wondering if she's weird. Is this really happening? Nobody has met yet everybody is so dreamy about each other.


Treadmilldude, yesterday you were going to drop every woman in Belarus with a child due to the obstacles of getting a father's permission and today you are so in love with Olya and her daughter Veronica. What's going on here?

[jone]

treadmill, you should worry about only one issue - she may think you too weird. 


You said you like my advice.  Here's my advice for the day:  Tell Olya again you do not want to have sex with her, but say you will have sex with her sister to prove that you are normal.   Explain this will eliminate any concern Olya may have that something is wrong with you. 

Seriously, I can't believe you are communicating with women and telling them well before your trip is even planned that you will not have sex.   Evidently this ploy is working as Olya is very excited about meeting you.

Warning:  be careful with the information you reveal on the Internet.

Damn Again, Gator