Why Ukraine ?

[CaptB]

Krimster2,


If I was totally serious I wouldn't have put a  :-)  at the end of my statement. You need to lighten-up :-) :-) :-)


Capt B

[CaptB]

Krimster2,


Most of Russian TV is "state-owned. But my relatives watch programming from all over the world.....via the internet. These are not the people who lived under Stalin....rarely catching glimpses of the outside world. My Mother in-law lived under Stalin. She knows that the world is not just black and white. She has some distaste for the things that the US "government" does (as do many of us here). Stomping an American flag......protesting the US government......I have never seen that before :-) You getting punched outside a bar. Did you ever consider it was "you" that irritated them.....and not where you came from. Probably though.....they were just drunk.....and you happened to be there. Could have happened any day of the year......anywhere in the world.


Capt B  :-)

[krimster2]

sorry, it's the Ritalin!

[CaptB]

Thats okay.....we all have our days. :-)


Capt B

[CaptB]

ML,


Or maybe I'm just messing with you


Capt B

[mhr7]

if you still think there’s no anti-western sentiment or anti-American sentiment in Russia, let’s do the following experiment,  whatever city you live in, take an American flag and walk up and down the largest main “ulitsa” there, please tell me how long it is until you’re either arrested or attacked by locals, you know what would happen if you did that in Kyiv?  Nothing! Nothing at all, that’s the difference, and as a result my choice would be Kyiv over Moscow any day!

People here have American flags on T-shirts, school bags, hoodies-its not a rarity to see the flag. I might get some dirty looks if I carried the flag but I'd bet you $1000 I wouldn't  be arrested nor attacked. The difference between hating America and hating Americans is very significant. They don't like American politics, foreign policy, and Obama. They love American culture. I live about 30 Km from Rostov-On-Don in a very peaceful city, very unlike the Crimea you describe. Many people here have relatives who live in America.

I'm the only American here, most people know who I am and they go out of their way to shake my hand and give me a helping hand if I need it. I've had Russian soldiers invite me to drink with them in restaurants. You're not going to convince me that Russians are the devil's spawn.

In all honesty, I find Russians to be friendlier than Ukrainians. Unfortunately, they don't tend to know as much English. I was offered a job in Kyiv over the summer but choose to remain here.

[krimster2]

Capn’, I wasn’t punched outside a bar, I know better than that, the location of both of my altercations was Chersonese, I had no interaction at all with my assailants prior to the altercation, in one case I was with my wife and two daughters, the only provocation I provided was publicly speaking English to my children

MHR7, I know the Rostov na Donu area fairly well, my FSU wife (17 yr next month), used to live in a small town near there called “Prolatarsk”, As a family, we’ve visited the area several times and I’ve caught some nice fish in the Manych, especially considering the “tackle” I was using.

“You're not going to convince me that Russians are the devil's spawn. “

This is not my intention or even something I believe.  My message for the new guys is that the Russian government through its complete control/ownership over the Russian national media is pursuing a non-stop anti-American/anti-Western propaganda campaign.  There is mounting evidence that shows that this propaganda is becoming increasingly effective. Changing people’s attitudes is after all the objective of propaganda.  So why should this be a concern for the new guys?  As a result of this non-stop propaganda, their future Russian wife and the family/friends of their future wife may develop a false concept of Russian superiority/Western inferiority.  If you happen to share that sentiment, then you probably won’t have any problems with your future Russian wife.  On the other hand, if you support Western/American cultural values than this may lead you into a conflict with your future spouse (and family/friends).  As ML has noted the situation is dynamic, look how much things have changed in the last 2 years, what if this split between Russia and the West gets worst in the future, where will you be with your Russian wife and especially if she considers herself a “patriot”?

And of course there’s the visa issue, right now for my family to visit Russia I need to spend over $1000 in visas and fill out 4 different documents, for Ukraine the cost is $0, and no documents needed.  For guys contemplating marrying a Russian woman, how many visits to Russia will you and your wife (and kids) make over the lifetime of your marriage, multiply  that by a few hundred per person, per visit, it will add up to many thousands of dollars being paid to a government that is openly hostile to the West, why would you do that?  This is why I consider pro-Western visa-free Ukraine to be a much better choice for them

[mhr7]

Capn’, I wasn’t punched outside a bar, I know better than that, the location of both of my altercations was Chersonese, I had no interaction at all with my assailants prior to the altercation, in one case I was with my wife and two daughters, the only provocation I provided was publicly speaking English to my children

MHR7, I know the Rostov na Donu area fairly well, my FSU wife (17 yr next month), used to live in a small town near there called “Prolatarsk”, As a family, we’ve visited the area several times and I’ve caught some nice fish in the Manych, especially considering the “tackle” I was using.

“You're not going to convince me that Russians are the devil's spawn. “

This is not my intention or even something I believe.  My message for the new guys is that the Russian government through its complete control/ownership over the Russian national media is pursuing a non-stop anti-American/anti-Western propaganda campaign.  There is mounting evidence that shows that this propaganda is becoming increasingly effective. Changing people’s attitudes is after all the objective of propaganda.  So why should this be a concern for the new guys?  As a result of this non-stop propaganda, their future Russian wife and the family/friends of their future wife may develop a false concept of Russian superiority/Western inferiority.  If you happen to share that sentiment, then you probably won’t have any problems with your future Russian wife.  On the other hand, if you support Western/American cultural values than this may lead you into a conflict with your future spouse (and family/friends).  As ML has noted the situation is dynamic, look how much things have changed in the last 2 years, what if this split between Russia and the West gets worst in the future, where will you be with your Russian wife and especially if she considers herself a “patriot”?

And of course there’s the visa issue, right now for my family to visit Russia I need to spend over $1000 in visas and fill out 4 different documents, for Ukraine the cost is $0, and no documents needed.  For guys contemplating marrying a Russian woman, how many visits to Russia will you and your wife (and kids) make over the lifetime of your marriage, multiply  that by a few hundred per person, per visit, it will add up to many thousands of dollars being paid to a government that is openly hostile to the West, why would you do that?  This is why I consider pro-Western visa-free Ukraine to be a much better choice for them

I understand, but men shouldn't let fear and a few hundreds bucks for a visa get in the way of finding a good woman. If either of these stop you, go buy a dog.

[Gator]

He is showing you what is bound to happen in the FUTURE  to ordinary people who are bombarded constantly with the negativity.

Ukrainians and Russians were bombarded by propaganda even more in the 1950s and 60s.  The world did not end.

[Gator]

if you marry someone from Russia it’s very possible that some of her friends/family may succumb to the influence of Russian propaganda, in my wife’s case this is true, both for the majority of her family as well as friends (she’s Crimean).  if it happens, this negative opinion may cause some friction in your relationship with her...

True story, happened last week.  My wife told me about a family gathering in Russia, and she heard the following account from one of her cousins.   Another cousin (a man) criticized America and questioned why my wife married an American man and moved there.  Babushka answers,  "I have travelled to America twice.  I have seen America.  It is a good country.  She has a good husband. They love each other. I no longer worry about my daughter. "  Babushka stands, folds her arms and looks sternly down her nose at the man.   

..if you spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars in visas to the Russian government, this may be an issue for you, so FOR GUYS JUST STARTING OUT,  if choose Ukraine instead of Russia, you will completely avoid these issues, (unless Russia changes the borders again!) that's the point that's being made here.

 

The cost of a visa is small compared to travel costs.  Besides, a visa is not required if one has a Russian passport. 

I don't understand where some of you are coming from. 

[Boethius]

Ukrainians and Russians were bombarded by propaganda even more in the 1950s and 60s.  The world did not end.

Most of that propaganda was about how the West wanted to destroy the socialist revolution, the evils of capitalism, and how the USSR eventually would overtake the West (that is what Khrushchev's famous "We will buy you" line was about).  That did stick until it was obvious to anyone who had any contact with Westerners that they were (a) largely happier; and (b)  economically more prosperous.  Had the USSR delivered on prosperity, those messages likely would have resonated with most Soviet citizens.

[CaptB]

As Boethius commented about Kruschev's famous line at the UN....."we will bury you".....was not a physical threat (military)....but an "economic threat"....to surpass the US in prosperity. There was a special earlier this year (history channel ?)......about Kruschev's visit to the US. He insisted that the president (Eisenhower sp.) ...."NOT" shuffle him off to a few controlled environments. He said he wanted to meet the "everyman" on the street. The state dept. hesitated....but granted his wish. He said he found the American warm, welcoming and friendly. He really like the "citizens" of the US. The citizens responded mostly......positively. I have always believed that most "ordinary" folks from all countries would get along.....if it wasn't for their (all) politicians.


Cant B

[Gator]

Most of that propaganda was about how the West wanted to destroy the socialist revolution, the evils of capitalism, and how the USSR eventually would overtake the West .....

Was it much different from the anti-West messages Russians hear today, e. g., America placed sanctions against Russia to hurt Russians, America is encircling Russia, America stole Iraqi oil, Americans are decadent?     

[krimster2]

Gator,

Here's Russian Visa Costs
http://www.visaexpress.net/russia/russiatouristvisa.htm

Service Type   Entries      Con Fee   Svc Fee

REGULAR    1       $195       $89    
REGULAR    2       $195       $89    
RUSH       1       $285       $179       
RUSH       2       $285       $179       
URGENT    1       $315       $239    
URGENT    2       $315       $239    

[Anotherkiwi]

Gator,

Here's Russian Visa Costs
http://www.visaexpress.net/russia/russiatouristvisa.htm

Service Type   Entries      Con Fee   Svc Fee

REGULAR    1       $195       $89    
REGULAR    2       $195       $89    
RUSH       1       $285       $179       
RUSH       2       $285       $179       
URGENT    1       $315       $239    
URGENT    2       $315       $239

Why do you have to pay so much? 

These are the fees charged to New Zealanders for visas:

                                                                 Standard (10 working days processing)   Urgent (3 working days processing)

Single-entry tourist (no longer than 30 days)                         $80                                                    $160

Double-entry tourist (no longer than 30 days)                       $125                                                   $250

Single-entry business (no longer than 90 days)                      $80                                                    $160

Double-entry business (no longer than 90 days)                    $125                                                   $250

Multiple-entry business (no longer than 90 days)                   $235                                                   $470

I know that Americans can't apply directly to the Embassy (why on earth not????  We do), but our actual visa fees (remembering that our dollar is worth about 73 US cents) are less than a third of yours.  Truly bizarre. 

http://www.newzealand.mid.ru/tourist-visas.htm
http://www.newzealand.mid.ru/business-visas.htm

One advantage you do have, of course, is being able to get a three-year tourist visa.  I may be wrong, but I understand that's not available to citizens of any other country.

[Boethius]

Was it much different from the anti-West messages Russians hear today, e. g., America placed sanctions against Russia to hurt Russians, America is encircling Russia, America stole Iraqi oil, Americans are decadent?   

Most of those statements are, objectively, true. 


The West may not have placed sanctions on Russia in order to hurt Russians, but sanctions are intended to cause pain in order to change behaviour.  In a sense, no difference.


NATO, from a Russian perspective, is encircling Russia with missiles.


Are Americans decadent?  Probably.  But that exists everywhere, including Russia.


Those messages, however, are different than the ones in the Soviet period, which were mostly about the struggle of the proletariat vs bourgeois capitalism.

[LAman]

Gator,

Here's Russian Visa Costs
http://www.visaexpress.net/russia/russiatouristvisa.htm

Service Type   Entries      Con Fee   Svc Fee

REGULAR    1       $195       $89    
REGULAR    2       $195       $89    
RUSH       1       $285       $179       
RUSH       2       $285       $179       
URGENT    1       $315       $239    
URGENT    2       $315       $239

Krimster, did you use visaexpress before? why did you pick this company? Their site info is outdated.

Earlier this year I paid ~$340( total cost for everything) for my 3 year visa.

[krimster2]

thanks LAMan,
   However, I will never need a Russian visa, for the simple reason my family and I have no intentions of ever going there

[Gator]

Most of those statements are, objectively, true. 

The West may not have placed sanctions on Russia in order to hurt Russians, but sanctions are intended to cause pain in order to change behaviour.  In a sense, no difference.

NATO, from a Russian perspective, is encircling Russia with missiles.

Help me understand this.  Are you saying many of today's anti-American messages bombarding the Russians  in their  media have an element of truth?  If so, how can ML, Krimster, etc.  complain about these stories creating anti-American sentiment?  If the stories about America have some truth to them, can it be the same for the anti-Ukrainian stories? 

My point is that the issue is not black and white.  The Russian media may indeed  paint grey as black when many of us consider it white. 

Those messages, however, are different than the ones in the Soviet period, which were mostly about the struggle of the proletariat vs bourgeois capitalism.

The central part of the  Soviet propaganda was also true - we did want to destroy communism.  I was taught at an early to fear the CCCP, even doing nuclear warfare drills. 

This hostility continued, albeit to a lesser degree, up to the collapse of the CCCP.  One of the last operations was arming the mujahedeen in the late 1980s.  This was not a humanitarian mission; it was a large, complicated, covert operation done to a) stop expansion of communism and b)  kill Russians.   The part about "killing Russians" comes from  Charlie Wilson's War, a great read authored by a Sixty Minutes producer. 

[Gator]

krimster,

The cost of a visa is a small part of the total cost for a trip.  If doing several trips, it becomes a serious cost, yet still far from a number that would prevent a man from meeting a fine woman just because she resides in Russia. 

[mhr7]

American Citizens Also Holding Russian Passports:   Dual U.S./Russian nationals who enter Russia on Russian passports face several possible difficulties.  Russian authorities will not permit departure from Russia if the person’s Russian passport has expired or has been lost, whether or not the traveler also has a valid U.S. passport.  In these cases the traveler will be required to obtain a new Russian passport, a process that can take several months. In order to apply for a Russian visa in a U.S. passport, however, Russian consular officials normally require a person to renounce his or her Russian citizenship.

Interesting, I never knew this.

[Faux Pas]

Krimster, did you use visaexpress before? why did you pick this company? Their site info is outdated.

Earlier this year I paid ~$340( total cost for everything) for my 3 year visa.

I bought one a little over a month ago for a trip next week. I have $290 invested and that includes an extra shipment to the visa for something that I forgot. I've traveled around the world and paid similar rates for visas to other countries.


AKiwi, Americans can apply directly to the Russian consulate/embassy. The difference is it has to be in person on the designated days at the designated times. They stopped the mail applications 5-6 years ago. There is only 3 embassies in the U.S. and it's a big country. Most folks can't make it to an embassy for a visa so we have to pay a company to do it for us.

[ML]

krimster,

The cost of a visa is a small part of the total cost for a trip.  If doing several trips, it becomes a serious cost, yet still far from a number that would prevent a man from meeting a fine woman just because she resides in Russia.

I think (but did not check) that Krimster was referring  to visa costs for family of 4 people accumulated over a number of years as they visit Russia.  It does add up.

[krimster2]

Hi Gator,
 the visa costs are relative, it’s one thing if you’re talking about one individual making a few trips to Russia to meet a prospective spouse (but the total visa costs for that could easily top $1,000), and another thing if you peer into the future and consider the possibility that after you’re married to a Russian woman that you may make many trips with your spouse to visit her former homeland and see her family, etc (I know I made a lot of these trips over the last 17 years), and if you have children born in the USA who will accompany you on these trips, then they of course will need travel visas as well.  As a result it’s entirely possible that during the course of your marriage to a Russian woman that you may spend MANY thousands of dollars on Russian travel visas. 

Yes, a visa costs less than the airfare and hotel/apartment costs of the trip, but that’s not the point of comparison I’m trying to make.  Compared to Russia, Ukraine is visa free, and so you don’t have these costs and hassle at all! 

So if new guys have no issue with the possibility that in the future they could be handing over to the Russian government many thousands of dollars for travel visas, then by all means they should proceed full speed ahead with searching in Russia.  However, if they do have an issue with this, then they should check out pro-Western, visa free Ukraine, which has women that are every bit as delightful as the ones that are in Russia.

[ML]

Are you saying many of today's anti-American messages bombarding the Russians  in their  media have an element of truth?  If so, how can ML, Krimster, etc.  complain about these stories creating anti-American sentiment?

We can complain because we don't want the truth to be told.  It is a much happier world when truths are not known.  I don't like to watch the daily news for the same reason.  Better to watch cartoons.