Am I getting scammed?

[Spygreg]

Hello group.  I'm putting this out here to see if someone can point out something I may be missing. 

I made contact with this lady through the letter writing service of "Loveme.com".  I figured a few $15 dollar letters and then hopefully we would start communicating through regular email and other systems.  I suggested the change, but she said she wanted to meet in person first, before we exchanged personal information.  I was going to just let it go, since I know I could be talking to a translator or who knows who. 

I ended up continuing the conversation, but kept the letters down to a limited number.  Of course I would like it to be real, but I know it may just be a scam to get my money for the letters.  As of now it's probably been about 4 months.  I thought perhaps sending a gift with a photo would at least let me see if something was a little odd.  I did send the gift and they took a photo of her receiving the gift.  It looks real from what I can tell, but she is holding a paper sign that has my name on it, but my last name is misspelled. It also looks like some variation in color between the top of this sign and the bottom one.  I'm thinking maybe Photoshop? Maybe not and it was my gift she was receiving.  I really don't know what to think. She is definitely holding the same gift I ordered.

The letters from her seem rather normal.  No madly in love stuff, but reasonable talk about how life might be, what she would do here.  What do I like, what she likes, etc.  Nothing overly sexual and no overly complimentary statements as is so common in most scams.  She is 44 and I am 50.  She is cute, but I don't think she would be competing for a modelling job.  Everything seems like it is normal, except she won't give up any personal info. 

She tells me since she lives in Donestk, I can't get there to visit her.  I don't believe that is true, but I do know it's a high risk location. She suggests meeting in Kiev.  Per her, I would tell her when I will be in Kiev and she will take a bus or train there and we will meet in the lobby.  If all is good, then we will take it from there. That sounds ok, but I can't help but conjure up images of sitting at the lounge of the Kiev Sheraton waiting for this mystery woman and ending up staggering back to my room, in a drunken state,  telling the prostitutes I'm not interested because she never showed up.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on?  Is my gut probably right?  Is someone just making money off these letters hoping I keep sending them until I make the $2000 dead end journey to an empty hotel room on the other side of the world?  After that I can only imagine the conversation.  Something about how sorry she is she missed the train or some other story.

I have considered simply saying I am coming for a visit and making it all seem like it's happening.  If she doesn't show up, then I know and am not out any money.  But what if she does show up?  What if she is really who she says she is and is just being cautious. 

Just as a side note:  Eastern Europe is no mystery to me.  My mother is Ukrainian, I was married to a Ukrainian woman for a couple years and I speak some Russian. I'm not great at it and I can't recall a dative case from an accusative case (Those who have studied Russian will understand)   but I can usually get my point across. It does seem even more odd that she would be afraid of her limited language skills, when I can speak her language, at least to some degree.

       

[Larry1]

The agency employee is taking you for all he or she can get.

In the future  I suggest asking the girl to go to skype video within weeks. If she gives excuse after excuse move on, preferably to an agency that does not charge by the letter.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

[BillyB]

Donestk airport is destroyed due to bombing. If a girl was real, I'd make the exception and meet her in Kiev.

You've communicated with the lady for 4 months and she won't give you an email address or phone number? You've verified she's real with the photo and flower delivery but you still don't know if she's into you. If you were communicating with more women who shown more interest in you, you wouldn't tolerate what you're tolerating now.  Right now you don't know if you're getting scammed or not. You're not in the right frame of mind to visit and romance a woman. Tell the lady you need to Skype with her and call her on the phone before deciding to visit her. If she doesn't think you're worth the phone number and meetings on Skype, then you know your worth to her.

[CaptB]

I agree with Billy & Larry......for the most part. If I asked to to "Skype" after a fews weeks of e-mails....and says no....I would move on. I think (my opinion) that a first visit should always be in "her" hometown. Meeting in another location....is a "vacation". If she does not want you to visit her in "her" city.....ask why? Maybe she does not want you to bump into her husband.....or boyfriend :-) If she will not Skype....I am moving on. If I can't meet with her in "her" city.....I move on. Meeting in another location....means you are putting-off the valuable information you will get....if you visited her in her own hometown. There you will see how her friends, relatives and co-wokers......regard her.....as a person. If she is trouble....it will be harder to hide it there. Maybe she is testing you to see if you are the "man".....or she can manipulate you. I see no valid reason not to Skype....or visit her hometown. No airport .....fly to the closest one....then take a cab or bus.....or she has a friend who can pick you up. When the are a lot of excuses.....there is usually.....something to hide.


Capt B

[Patagonie]

Hello group.  I'm putting this out here to see if someone can point out something I may be missing. 

I made contact with this lady through the letter writing service of "Loveme.com".  I figured a few $15 dollar letters and then hopefully we would start communicating through regular email and other systems.  I suggested the change, but she said she wanted to meet in person first, before we exchanged personal information.  I was going to just let it go, since I know I could be talking to a translator or who knows who. 

I ended up continuing the conversation, but kept the letters down to a limited number.  Of course I would like it to be real, but I know it may just be a scam to get my money for the letters.  As of now it's probably been about 4 months.  I thought perhaps sending a gift with a photo would at least let me see if something was a little odd.  I did send the gift and they took a photo of her receiving the gift.  It looks real from what I can tell, but she is holding a paper sign that has my name on it, but my last name is misspelled. It also looks like some variation in color between the top of this sign and the bottom one.  I'm thinking maybe Photoshop? Maybe not and it was my gift she was receiving.  I really don't know what to think. She is definitely holding the same gift I ordered.

The letters from her seem rather normal.  No madly in love stuff, but reasonable talk about how life might be, what she would do here.  What do I like, what she likes, etc.  Nothing overly sexual and no overly complimentary statements as is so common in most scams.  She is 44 and I am 50.  She is cute, but I don't think she would be competing for a modelling job.  Everything seems like it is normal, except she won't give up any personal info. 

She tells me since she lives in Donestk, I can't get there to visit her.  I don't believe that is true, but I do know it's a high risk location. She suggests meeting in Kiev.  Per her, I would tell her when I will be in Kiev and she will take a bus or train there and we will meet in the lobby.  If all is good, then we will take it from there. That sounds ok, but I can't help but conjure up images of sitting at the lounge of the Kiev Sheraton waiting for this mystery woman and ending up staggering back to my room, in a drunken state,  telling the prostitutes I'm not interested because she never showed up.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what is going on?  Is my gut probably right?  Is someone just making money off these letters hoping I keep sending them until I make the $2000 dead end journey to an empty hotel room on the other side of the world?  After that I can only imagine the conversation.  Something about how sorry she is she missed the train or some other story.

I have considered simply saying I am coming for a visit and making it all seem like it's happening.  If she doesn't show up, then I know and am not out any money.  But what if she does show up?  What if she is really who she says she is and is just being cautious. 

Just as a side note:  Eastern Europe is no mystery to me.  My mother is Ukrainian, I was married to a Ukrainian woman for a couple years and I speak some Russian. I'm not great at it and I can't recall a dative case from an accusative case (Those who have studied Russian will understand)   but I can usually get my point across. It does seem even more odd that she would be afraid of her limited language skills, when I can speak her language, at least to some degree.

     

Sorry but i think that you like lost causes.

Red flags:
1/ Loveme
2/ 15$ letter
3/ don't want to go to a regular email
--> Here you should already bail out....

But now you are making plan to date a woman from Donetsk.
She told you "She tells me since she lives in Donestk, I can't get there to visit her", the perfect explanation to have many bogey for paid letters.
And sorry but why do you want to chase a woman in Donetsk?
Forget Donetsk's women, there are millions of women available  in accessible cities.
My question why are you so fond of problems, do you work for human NGO, or are you a holy savior? Especially if Eastern Europe is no mystery for you.

GOLDEN RULE :
 if you cannot meet a lady or cannot go in a FSU city.
A/ Drop the lady.
B/ Remove this city from your list. 

[Anotherkiwi]

Firstly -  Greg!  Hopefully you'll be able to learn something from the collective "wisdom" of the forum. 

Secondly - $15 a letter?  Are you nuts?  If you haven't already figured it out, this forum in general is extremely anti- pay per letter sites.  You've been writing for four months (what - three or four letters a week, each way?  That's over a thousand dollars!) and, despite the sort-of promising way your correspondence is going, you still have no idea if the lady is really interested.

She may well be genuine, but she doesn't seem to have offered enough for you to find out properly.  It might sound harsh, but I would say let her go, and start looking for someone else.  I won't be quite as direct as Patagonie, but there are plenty of choices on the free (or pay monthly) sites, 99% of whom live on the "right" side of the front line.

Keep us updated.

[Patagonie]

Firstly -  Greg!  Hopefully you'll be able to learn something from the collective "wisdom" of the forum. 

Secondly - $15 a letter?  Are you nuts?  If you haven't already figured it out, this forum in general is extremely anti- pay per letter sites.  You've been writing for four months (what - three or four letters a week, each way?  That's over a thousand dollars!) and, despite the sort-of promising way your correspondence is going, you still have no idea if the lady is really interested.

She may well be genuine, but she doesn't seem to have offered enough for you to find out properly.  It might sound harsh, but I would say let her go, and start looking for someone else.  I won't be quite as direct as Patagonie, but there are plenty of choices on the free (or pay monthly) sites, 99% of whom live on the "right" side of the front line.

Keep us updated.

Yeah, i am a little direct, sorry.
But there are many guys who need a direct, non debatable answer with no space, even one angstrom, to let them deploy their fantasy.

People have high propension to leave the real world and nurture the criminals and dishonests.

Many western men need approval in their sentimental life.
 They are seeking approval more than food, or at least they flee as fast as a navy fighter the rejection, rather than searching, watching, checking and reacting to the red flags.
It's why i like the russian/ukrainian culture, they will bump in you to extract the truth anytime that the beginning of a red flag will blink in their eyes.

Western men, in average, will close their eyes to any red flag and will try to find out every sign that looks like a green flag.
After they build an entire love story on "green lights" coming from their brains, discoursing for months about every details and loosing sigh of the whole picture.

You think i am direct?
I had been this man, building dreams and fantasies, most of the time coming back at home with just my right hand, with pain and mental confusion for companion. I needed to highly kick my ass to get out of all this BS.

For this i hate the western culture, as my wife say, many western men look like little rabbits with women. And she is damned right.

[HoundDaddyLee]

I agree with Billy & Larry......for the most part. If I asked to to "Skype" after a fews weeks of e-mails....and says no....I would move on. I think (my opinion) that a first visit should always be in "her" hometown. Meeting in another location....is a "vacation". If she does not want you to visit her in "her" city.....ask why? Maybe she does not want you to bump into her husband.....or boyfriend :-) If she will not Skype....I am moving on. If I can't meet with her in "her" city.....I move on. Meeting in another location....means you are putting-off the valuable information you will get....if you visited her in her own hometown. There you will see how her friends, relatives and co-wokers......regard her.....as a person. If she is trouble....it will be harder to hide it there. Maybe she is testing you to see if you are the "man".....or she can manipulate you. I see no valid reason not to Skype....or visit her hometown. No airport .....fly to the closest one....then take a cab or bus.....or she has a friend who can pick you up. When the are a lot of excuses.....there is usually.....something to hide.


Capt B

First off, welcome to the forum. I agree with CaptB, that you should visit her city, but in this case don't go! Donetsk is a war zone. In fact you should avoid women from this region as they have much motivation to leave and would not worry about potentially scamming you to get out. Also pay per letter/pay per chat sites are not the way to go. There are plenty of subscription services and free services (fdating.com for example) that would be a better way to go.


There is a lot of good information on this site. Read as much as you can. Another point, is to not stay at a hotel (there is a Sheraton in Kiev?). Get an apartment no matter what city you visit.


Good luck in your search,
HDL

[BillyB]

SpyGreg, just in case you do learn you wasted lots of money and 4 months of your life, in the link below are recommended agencies. If you use them, you still have to figure out if the girls are sincere but they are much less likely to be getting a cut off a pay to play letter scheme.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0

[ML]

If anyone thinks others have been direct . . . I will up the ante and say the OP is extremely naive, foolish and even worse.

[Faux Pas]

Welcome Spy. Listen to your gut.

There are 1000 ways to do this wrong and you've discovered 1 of them. Stick around RWD and read copious amounts. There is lots here for you to learn. You can do this and it's not that difficult but there are positive and negative avenues. Learn here from your early mistakes and the many mistakes of others. 

[krimster2]

worse case - you are being 100% scammed, some guy named “Yuri” is writing emails to you, and asks his sister to take a photo with your present, best case, the agency is being very controlling and doesn’t want to lose out on the $15 per letter, and threatens to drop her if she trys to give her address to you.  A 44 yr old woman doesn’t have many dating options in Ukraine, so the threat carries some weight.

So let Uncle Krimster who has dwelt among the wily Ukrainians and has had some of “it” rub off on him tell you what to do next!

You tell your lady friend, that you have purchased some type of expensive gift for her, use your imagination to decide what it could be, clothing, for example, and you purchased it impulsively, and now want to send it to her, and need her address, if she gives it to you great, send her a letter instead with your contact information and an explanation, if she’s “legit” she will totally “get it” and be 100% on your side in this issue, and not the agency.  If she hedges with the address, or wants to use the agency address, then cut back on the email, cut way back ...

If she is only willing to supply an agency address, then consider sending a package with many small gifts and cleverly hidden inside one of the gifts is your email and skype address, for example send a large book, and after she receives it tell her, on page 142 it says how I feel about you, you should read it.

Another alternative, is to offer to “buy out” her address from the agency, if the amount is reasonable, say under $200, then just pay the buy-out

What everyone else has said goes double by me, be careful dewd!  You really can’t appreciate the amount of scammin’ that goes on there!


 

[krimster2]

I should also add that it’s likely that your lady friend receives a cut of the $15 per letter, so there may be some reluctance on her part to abandon this income, hard currency is very difficult to come by in Donetsk these days, even $5 per letter.  You have to understand that when dealing with a Ukrainian woman, sooner or later the topic of you, her, and money is going to be an issue you have to deal with, so you have to make a decision about that, you can’t escape it I’m afraid, it an inextricable aspect of the relationship, indeed, sooner or later you’re going to come to the realization that this is what the relationship is mostly about ...

[Spygreg]

Thanks for the input all. I think some of you were venting your own frustrating on my situation.  Yes i asked for an opinion. And appreciate all of them, but if i chose to drop $15 or 15k that's a rather personal choice.  Fyi, ive kept the letters to about one each week.  One read one week and one sent the next week.  So i think i may have lost a couple hundred dollars.  Not great,  but ill get over that.  I'm not stupid,  I had my doubts.  I wouldn't have gone on as long as i have if some issues hadn't happened. I lost one job,  got another that sucked and left for a third all during this time period.  So yes i might have let this go on longer than normal.  So be it.

What i really was hoping for was some thoughts about this gift and picture thing.  It appears the lady got the gift.  Do you all think the woman is in on a scam?  If she blew me off and the translator kept the conversation going,  why would she accept the gift? Is it a generic photo she took once and they photoshoped my name on it?  In just a bit unsure what that could be. 

Thanks for the responses,  i do appreciate it. Just don't be so angry about what you see as a tragic financial loss.

[krimster2]

Spygreg,
   You may not want to hear the criticism, but I consider it to be justified, you are entering into scammer territory, and in this situation you HAVE to gain access to her without the agency, or you will always have the doubt that this person is a scammer, and until you’ve pried her away from the agency and determined her “fidelity” then what’s the point in planning a trip?  four months is plenty of time to resolve this issue, to everyone reading this board it appears that you’ve been “played” either because of your own  naiveté (nothing bad about you, but scammers operate on a level of morality below anything you’ve likely encountered before) or wanting to believe in the illusion of love/romance, a characteristic of every single person who has been scammed. 

It’s hard for me to judge if there’s any potential here that can be salvaged, or should you just learn a lesson and move on.  At the very least set a time limit, like 30 days, and during this period either pry her away from the agency and speak directly with her or move on and don’t repeat the mistakes you made here.  Just don’t spend another 4 months back and forth and wonder “what should you do, are you being scammed”...

[Patagonie]

Thanks for the input all. I think some of you were venting your own frustrating on my situation.  Yes i asked for an opinion. And appreciate all of them, but if i chose to drop $15 or 15k that's a rather personal choice.  Fyi, ive kept the letters to about one each week.  One read one week and one sent the next week.  So i think i may have lost a couple hundred dollars.  Not great,  but ill get over that.  I'm not stupid,  I had my doubts.  I wouldn't have gone on as long as i have if some issues hadn't happened. I lost one job,  got another that sucked and left for a third all during this time period.  So yes i might have let this go on longer than normal.  So be it.

What i really was hoping for was some thoughts about this gift and picture thing.  It appears the lady got the gift.  Do you all think the woman is in on a scam?  If she blew me off and the translator kept the conversation going,  why would she accept the gift? Is it a generic photo she took once and they photoshoped my name on it?  In just a bit unsure what that could be. 

Thanks for the responses,  i do appreciate it. Just don't be so angry about what you see as a tragic financial loss.

You just need to move rather than to be stucked with one door half opened and all other doors ringing danger.
They can shoot the lady with each item of the gift list when she comes to the studio the first time. And photoshop is a standard tool in many agencies.
Or they can contact her to share some money provided that she accepts the photo to be taken.
There are many tricks, you don't need to know all of them, stop of rationnalizing.

[BillyB]

, but if i chose to drop $15 or 15k that's a rather personal choice.

Just don't be so angry about what you see as a tragic financial loss.

This is more than just a tragic financial loss and a personal choice. Your actions feed a multi million dollar industry. Individual scammers also have known to make millions. It also creates the stereotype that Western men are gullible and naïve making us all look bad. With the money you and other men give to these scams, additional employees can be hired to scam on an even larger scale. The sincere men and women in this endeavor end up losing since they become jaded and quit.

Ask for Skype or phone number and start calling often. If the lady doesn't give it to you, move on. You do not need to spend anymore time on this woman except for one last request. After this ordeal, we can direct you to better places to find women and give you tips on how sincere women communicate.

[2tallbill]

The agency employee is taking you for all he or she can get.

Larry has it exactly right. She won't get a commission if you go to Skype.

In the future  I suggest asking the girl to go to skype video within weeks. If she gives excuse after excuse move on, preferably to an agency that does not charge by the letter.

Again excellent advice. A good girl who is interested in you will find a way to make
things work. She will hold a coat hanger out the window with her toes in a snow storm
to have better cell phone reception for your calls. An uninterested girl will make excuses.

The dog ate her charger, she doesn't have a computer at home, her granny is sick and
she can't talk to you. she dropped her cell phone in a mud puddle, the internet broke,
the Russians are coming her Grandfathers ghost doesn't like late night calls and it goes
on and on.

If a girl starts making excuses then DUMP HER! 

Udachi!

Bill

[GatoMoon]

She tells me since she lives in Donestk, I can't get there to visit her.  I don't believe that is true, but I do know it's a high risk location. She suggests meeting in Kiev.  Per her, I would tell her when I will be in Kiev and she will take a bus or train there and we will meet in the lobby.
     

Did she tell you that she prefer to travel by taxi because of 'safe and comfortable'  as I kept hearing the same thing all over again?  If so, it is possible you might get scammed.

1)  You send her money for taxi - she never on the car
2)  She gave you the address for the taxi driver, and they split the money, she never on the car

[GatoMoon]

How agency work

$15 per letter.  Say you write once a week.    $10 for the agency (rent, staff wages),  $5 for the lady even though she might never read or write your letter.

Lady gets $5 per letter from you every week = $20 per month for her pocket.  If she gets from 10 men per week, she gets $200 a month plus bonus from men who send flowers, gifts, photos, whatever.   Flowers cost around $1 - $2 in the shop plus local delivery (probably one of these agencies).

That's why we should never do business with agencies, because you don't know who are the true genuine women ?!!!

[Chicagoguy]

In several years of writing and dating I never sent a gift. And nothing ever happened. Maybe dinners and concerts after meeting were
 a suitable replacement.

How often does anyone in U.S. give gifts or flowers on 1st date? These women are not that different - trust me.

[GatoMoon]

If a girl starts making excuses then DUMP HER! 

Udachi!

Bill

+1

[ML]

This is more than just a tragic financial loss and a personal choice. Your actions feed a multi million dollar industry. Individual scammers also have known to make millions. It also creates the stereotype that Western men are gullible and naïve making us all look bad. With the money you and other men give to these scams, additional employees can be hired to scam on an even larger scale. The sincere men and women in this endeavor end up losing since they become jaded and quit.

Billy is absolutely right (even as he is wrong about immigration rules etc.) here.  :-)

FSU folks think we in the west are very stupid.
People like the OP feed this belief and make it harder for others to overcome this belief.
My spouse has remarked before how this is very true (the belief by FSU folks).
She continues by saying she was happy to find I only have below average IQ and not far below average.

[Spygreg]

Ok, OK, I'm sorry!  I fueled the Eastern European scamming industry, putting us all at risk. I am a terrible person and will forever hold my head in shame.  Now can we get over it? I get it. I'm sorry, I didn't get the rule book.  I just thought I was doing ok so long as I didn't do anything incredibly stupid like hoping on the next flight to Kiev and waiting for her at the hotel. I thought I was using some good common sense by only risking what I knew I could afford to risk.  I had no idea it was putting the entire American foreign wife seeking community at risk.

While so many were so quick to pass judgment upon me,  deciding I am so desperate that I will escape reality and conjure up fantasies of some foreign woman sleeping in my bed while sending Uri my money, you seem to have missed some important details.  I'm assuming they posted.  I was already married to a Ukrainian!  It last 2 years.  My mother is Ukrainian, that has lasted 50 years so far!  Even with that information, you assumed I am totally naive to the scams and lifestyles of eastern Europe?  Yes, my knowledge is from the USSR, not so much post soviet era.  My mother and I left when she was the ripe old age of 21 and I was 2, give me some credit.  I simply let my curiosity get the best of me at $10 a pop.  Oh well, I will re coop!  It's not that serious.

On another note, how do these companies like "A Foreign Affair" continue to operate with such scams going on.  As an American company they have a legal obligation to provide what they advertise and sell.  Even though they say they don't recommend letter writing, the fact they sell it and profit from it, makes them responsible for knowingly selling bad service.  Why haven't they been sued for this?  I understand it's the foreign marriage brokers who are doing the fraud and the American company washes their hands of it.  However if even a few clients can show the company had knowledge that their service wasn't what they advertised, they could be sued.  If it's serious enough, they could even be criminally charged.  American's tend to have faith in their companies because our laws and culture mandate fair business practices.  I don't know how such fraud can go on without consequences.   

[krimster2]

the stereotyped image of western gullibility is well established among people in the FSU, that
particular horse has left the barn so long ago that there’s no point in trying to close the barn door now.  This is a subject that could be discussed all by itself, but wouldn’t help the OP that much except to explain to him the wide spread scamming and dishonesty that he’s dealing with. 

I will reiterate to him once more, in the next 30 days either separate this woman from the agency or move on, or just move on.  There’s no other practical choice, you’ve let this go on for far too long.

“ I was already married to a Ukrainian!  It last 2 years.”
Sorry to hear that, I’ve been married to one for 17 years, and amazingly enough I have survived the experience so far!

“Even with that information, you assumed I am totally naive to the scams and lifestyles of eastern Europe?” 

Not totally naive, but still 4 months in this situation and no resolution in sight is more than most of us would find acceptable

From your first post:
“Everything seems like it is normal, except she won't give up any personal info. “
As I previously said, the agency has rules against that, they want to keep control over the communication to keep the cash flowing, likely she’s been given “a piece of the action”, and unless you come up with a way around this, then there’s no way of determining her sincerity or even if “she’s a she”.  I gave you some ideas for how to get around the agency’s control of her, try one of them or come up with some of your own, otherwise chalk it up to experience and move on, there are plenty of other approaches that work.  tell us more about yourself how much time, etc you can spend on a trip, and I’d be happy to give you some ideas